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NARDAC	Posted - 2009.10.09 20:53:00 - [1] Top 10, "Ohhhhh, now I get it" moments for me.... 1) Attributes ONLY affect time it takes to learn skills. They have NO other effects in the game. 2) skill points per min of training = (primary + 1/2 * secondary) * (1 + .02 * learning). So, let's say you have 8 intel, 8 memory, and learning at 0. Let's say you are learning an engineering skill that takes 100 skill points to train (I'm not even sure there is such a skill) where memory is the primary and intel is the seconday. You are learning (8+4)1 sp per min = 100/12 = 8 min, 20 sec Now, let's say you've trained analytic mind to 5 (+5 intel), Logic to 4 (+4 intel), instant recall to 5 (+5 memory), eidetic memory to 4 (+4 memory) and learning 5 (x 1.1 learning). You are now learning at (17+8.5)1.1 = 28.05 sp a min. Same 100 sp engineering skill now takes 3 min 33 seconds. Remap memory, and you can get skills even faster. Add implants, and you can get skills even faster. 3) There is no way to get more total base attributes for your remap. In the remap tool, you have to take a skill down to take another skill up. It is a trade off. 4) The FIRST remap is a freebe. You can remap, then remap a 2nd time as soon as you want. However, once you remap that 2nd time, you won't be able to remap again until 1 year from the second remap. Some say to use the first remap to push memory to base 15 and then put the rest on intel, taking everything else down to 5. On this I disagree. Sure, this recomendation let's you get the learning skills quickly, but then it isn't a whole lot of use for anything else. I moved intel to 10, percept to 10, memory to 9, and everything else to 5. There are a CRUD load of skills that use intel as primary and memory as secondary and I pounded on a lot of after maxxing intel and memory learning skills, but pbefore remapping the 2nd time. The percept is becasue I needed some ship skills to play other aspects of the game and had to learn those mixed in with the learning of other skills. 5) +3 attrib implants only require cyber 1. +4 requires cyber 4. You can jump from +1 to +3 without allocating any training time to cyber. If you want to use +4s, be prepared for a day or two of learning cyber to 4. +5s require cyber 5, and it takes a LONG time to get back the time and money spent on those +5 implants. 6) You can learn the skill to fly a larger ship, pretty quickly. That doesn't mean you have the skills needed to fly that ship well. Or, as I've heard others say, just because you can undock it doesn't mean you should. Don't focus just on larger ships. Also learn the engineering, mechanic, electronics, weapons, weapons upgrades, navigation, etc. etc. etc. 7) At lower levels, don't worry about hoarding cash for use later. As you move to higher level missions, rat less secure space, etc. the money jumps exponentially. The amount of money that can be made in 100 L1 missions can be made in a single L4. 8) You can be running those L4 surprisingly quickly if you dedicate yourself to learning skills that help in mission running. I'm running L4s after playing for only 3 months. 9) There is no magical moment where all tech 2 items suddenly unlock for you. Each item has a skill that unlocks it. You can start using some tech 2 items pretty dang quickly (day or 2). It is going to take me 3 months solid training to unlock tech 2 large arty. 10) Smaller ships take less damage. Sure, that larger ship may have 2x the shield and armor, but it's larger size and slower speed means missles do more damage and the guns/lasers hit more often and score better hits. Sometimes, smaller/faster is better. Oh, a bonus one. 11) Figure out where your race's trade hub is and what corp dominates the area. For Minmitar, Rens and Brutar Tribe. Do your L1 missions for them. It sucks getting L2 at some distant hub with an odd corp, then having to run 100 more L1s when you switch corps.
Celeritas 5k Caldari Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2009.10.09 21:12:00 - [2] Props for good advice. - NEVER PVP SOBER.
Horchan Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.09 21:24:00 - [3] Originally by: NARDAC 2) skill points per min of training = (primary + 1/2 * secondary) * (1 + .02 * learning). Just chiming in to say that this is partially wrong. Learning is already applied to your attributes, as can be seen in external programs like EVEmon. However, in game it concatenates the attribute to a whole number. Therefore, you don't need to multiply your attributes by "(1 + .02 * Learning)", since Learning is already applied to them. Just check through EVEmon or EVEHQ to see exactly what your attributes are. --- DesuSigs
Celeritas 5k Caldari Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2009.10.09 21:49:00 - [4] Originally by: Horchan Originally by: NARDAC 2) skill points per min of training = (primary + 1/2 * secondary) * (1 + .02 * learning). Just chiming in to say that this is partially wrong. Learning is already applied to your attributes, as can be seen in external programs like EVEmon. However, in game it concatenates the attribute to a whole number. Therefore, you don't need to multiply your attributes by "(1 + .02 * Learning)", since Learning is already applied to them. Just check through EVEmon or EVEHQ to see exactly what your attributes are. Learning will never raise you a full attribute point, so with the numbers truncated his formula is the only way to get the right numbers. Also, your formula is mathematically equivalent... Distributive property ftw - NEVER PVP SOBER.
Horchan Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.09 22:00:00 - [5] Originally by: Celeritas 5k Learning will never raise you a full attribute point, so with the numbers truncated his formula is the only way to get the right numbers. Also, your formula is mathematically equivalent... Distributive property ftw I think you misunderstand how the Learning skill is applied. Assume you have a base Int of 15 and Mem of 9, with your learning skills at 4/4, 5 in Learning, and +3 implants. Your attributes would be: Int: ( 15[base] + 8[stats] + 3[implants] ) * 1.1[Learning] = 28.6 Mem: ( 9[base] + 8[stats] + 3[implants] ) * 1.1[Learning] = 22.0 Per/Wil/Cha: ( 5[base] + 8[stats] + 3[implants] ) * 1.1[Learning] = 17.6 On your character it will only report Int 28, Mem 22, and Per/Wil/Cha 17. HOWEVER, the game will actually use the unconcatenated attributes to calculate skill training times. If you don't believe me, try downloading EVEmon and comparing it to your in-game attributes. --- DesuSigs
Pan Dora Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.10.09 22:18:00 - [6] Originally by: Horchan Originally by: Celeritas 5k Also, your formula is mathematically equivalent... Distributive property ftw I think you misunderstand how the Learning skill is applied. And I think you misunderstood the distributive property. _ I like to play this game because it make my in-game actions and archievments to mean something in-game.
Celeritas 5k Caldari Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2009.10.09 22:34:00 - [7] Originally by: Horchan I think you misunderstand how the Learning skill is applied. Assume you have a base Int of 15 and Mem of 9, with your learning skills at 4/4, 5 in Learning, and +3 implants. Your attributes would be: Int: ( 15[base] + 8[stats] + 3[implants] ) * 1.1[Learning] = 28.6 Mem: ( 9[base] + 8[stats] + 3[implants] ) * 1.1[Learning] = 22.0 Per/Wil/Cha: ( 5[base] + 8[stats] + 3[implants] ) * 1.1[Learning] = 17.6 On your character it will only report Int 28, Mem 22, and Per/Wil/Cha 17. HOWEVER, the game will actually use the unconcatenated attributes to calculate skill training times. If you don't believe me, try downloading EVEmon and comparing it to your in-game attributes. You're applying the learning skill to implants as well, which I am fairly sure is not how the number is calculated. I could be wrong on this though. Anyway (A + B)(C) = AC + BC. Basic math. To put it in terms of our discussion-- (Base + skills) Learning bonus = Base(learning bonus) + Skills(learning bonus) They are equivalent statments. It's like saying that gravity pulls you down, and gravity pulls you in the opposite direction of up. They're the same. Neither statement is incorrect. The game may truncate your stats, but that says nothing at all about how those stats are calculated. What it does say is that the easiest way to figure your true attributes (without using EVEmon) is to take the stat reported by the game, and multiply it by (1.0 + .05learning skill) Originally by:* Pan Dora And I think you misunderstood the distributive property. It seems that he also misunderstands the word "concatenated". - NEVER PVP SOBER.
NARDAC	Posted - 2009.10.09 22:34:00 - [8] Okay... 12) Get evemon. AWESOME tool for planning your training, browsing skill paths, looking at ships and equipment, figuring out what skills are needed to use what ships/items. It even distributes the learning skill for you so you don't have to do the multiplication after the fact. Even better, it SHOWS you exactly how many skill points an hour you are/will be learning, per skill based on the attributes for that skill. I love its remap optimizer and the implant calculator in that app as well. 13) Get EveFit (EFT) and learn that tool too. If you don't understand what EFT is showing you, you don't understand the game. But, those were left off the original post since those are straight up suggestions rather than the "oh, now I get it" items the list was intended to be.
Horchan Gallente	Posted - 2009.10.09 22:44:00 - [9] The Learning skill is applied to implants as well. That's how a max of 33 in one attribute is achieved: ( 15[base] + 10[stats] + 5[implants] ) * 1.1[Learning] = 33 If it wasn't applied to implants, it would be: ( 15[base] + 10[stats] ) * 1.1[Learning] + 5[implants] = 32.5 ... and 32.5 is still reported at 32 in game, since in game it just drops the decimal place. --- DesuSigs
NARDAC	Posted - 2009.10.09 22:55:00 - [10] Can we let the skill thing go? I was just trying to give a quick example of how the learning skills could more than double the rate at which you learn skills. Yes, the score shown in game already has the multiplier, and is rounded DOWN to an int. Heck, I never plan using the in game attributes display and skill points anyway. I use evemon, like everyone else. So, does anyone remember any of there... "OOOOHHHHH, now I get it" moments?
Pan Dora Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.10.09 23:02:00 - [11] Originally by: NARDAC 12)EVEMON 13)EFT (eve fitting tool) They are very handy. Just a warning: its important to understand what they dont show as well. _ I like to play this game because it make my in-game actions and archievments to mean something in-game.
Pan Dora Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.10.09 23:28:00 - [12] Edited by: Pan Dora on 09/10/2009 23:28:54 Originally by: NARDAC So, does anyone remember any of there... "OOOOHHHHH, now I get it" moments? I had some of this reading the stickies, things like: Lingo Golden Rules stacking penality Skills explained skills to fly XXX ship well Mining Guide There is even guide to scamming out there. (ok, its a guide to avoid scamm, but not everyone read the guides(and contracts) ) _ I like to play this game because it make my in-game actions and archievments to mean something in-game.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. United Corporate Ventures	Posted - 2009.10.10 05:34:00 - [13] Originally by: Pan Dora http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=299970skills to fly XXX ship well[/url Thanks for linking my old thread. Glad to see it's not totally forgotten by others. Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said Originally by: Chribba Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero! /me bows
Nicski	Posted - 2009.10.12 15:30:00 - [14] One of the biggest "Ohhhhh, now I get it" moments for me was about a week into the game I realised that I could double click on empty space and my ship would fly in that direction. Before that I was trying to find a Goto under a right click menu, trying to steer with the cursor keys or dragging the left or right mouse button. The best I could find was to select an object and click approach or orbit.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.10.12 16:06:00 - [15] Quote: Thanks for linking my old thread. Glad to see it's not totally forgotten by others. To be fair, CCP implemented the certificate system for exactly this reason.
NARDAC	Posted - 2009.10.12 20:26:00 - [16] Originally by: Nicski double click on empty space and my ship would fly in that direction. Ohhhh GREAT one! I never did figure that one out on my own. I had to ask if there was some way to turn your ship.
Zeya Chura Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.10.12 20:42:00 - [17] - You can drag looted cargo into the cargo bay icon, instead of always having your cargo window open all the time.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. United Corporate Ventures	Posted - 2009.10.13 05:51:00 - [18] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: Thanks for linking my old thread. Glad to see it's not totally forgotten by others. To be fair, CCP implemented the certificate system for exactly this reason. So you're saying I have a case for suing for royalties. Interesting... Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said Originally by: Chribba Go F'nog! You're a hero! Not a Zero! /me bows
Vincenzo Delloro Amarr Lux et Veritas	Posted - 2009.10.13 08:33:00 - [19] Wouldn't the correct term be "imerialities" for an Emperor such as yourself? :P Anyway, one additional thing that everyone in EVE learns sooner or later: there's never just one way to accomplish anything. Don't feel restricted by what other people tell you, think creatively about how you want to achieve the things you enjoy. "Winning at EVE" is measured solely by how much enjoyment you get out of the game, and you shouldn't feel like you have to "pay your dues" just to get what makes you tingly inside. Opportunities abound for the creative, the bold, and the sneaky. ================================================= Tell me again about how [insert random noun here] has ruined EVE!
Dodgy Past Amarr Lollipops for Rancors	Posted - 2009.10.13 13:50:00 - [20] Originally by: NARDAC 13) Get EveFit (EFT) and learn that tool too. If you don't understand what EFT is showing you, you don't understand the game. Use EFT to see what changing your skills will do to that fit ( in terms of being able to fit it and the effects ). Find a happy medium between training time / effectiveness and cost then train for that fit. By doing this I tend to break up the training cycle slightly and while maybe not always gaining totally new ships I do get to fly the ships I already have in different ways. A side effect of this is that important support skills will get trained up fairly organically.
Pan Dora Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.10.13 23:00:00 - [21] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: Thanks for linking my old thread. Glad to see it's not totally forgotten by others. To be fair, CCP implemented the certificate system for exactly this reason. IMO F'nog's thread its more usefull. (by large) _ I like to play this game because it make my in-game actions and archievments to mean something in-game.
NARDAC	Posted - 2009.10.14 18:52:00 - [22] I had a "oh, I didn't know that" moment last night. There is a bonus column(unnamed, not really a column) to the far right of the overview that shows what ships have you webbed/disrupted. Useful in knowing who to kill first.
Misha Kahan	Posted - 2009.10.15 15:57:00 - [23] I had a "wish I had realised that before I tried this" moment. If you are fighting on a station and pop don't try to spam the station dock- you can't dock from aggression! RvB may not be an Agony Unleashed class, but I'm learning a ton losing ships. I highly recommend it for any PvP nooblet with 10M (a whole frigate fleet)!
SghnDubh BattleClinic	Posted - 2009.10.16 05:19:00 - [24] Might help. Enjoy! http://eve.battleclinic.com/guide/3510-BattleClinic-s-EVE-New-Player-Guide.html . Timecodes: http://shop.BattleClinic.com

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