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Ninja Salvaging - A simple Idea (lots of those right?)

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Metalcali Pacific Dawn	Posted - 2009.10.19 12:46:00 - [31] Originally by: Skex Relbore Originally by: Jint Hikaru When will you cry babys learn that SALVAGE is a first come first served item. Thats what salvage is.... the first person to 'salvage' gains owner** rights to the salvagable items. If you want the salvage then take of a module from your mission ship and fit a salvager. Yes I know it will 'gimp' your minmax missioning setup (waaaa, something else to cry about), and it will add whole mins to your missioning time, totally ruining your isk/hour mission income (another waaaaa). On a more important note - Sausage sandwich in white bloomer bread with fried egg and a little cheese + brown sauce! I'm going to laugh of so ing hard when they finally nerf Ninja salvaging. And believe me it's coming. Because there isn't another mechanic in this game that is so obviously borked to anyone with an ounce of common sense. Don't believe me that it's going to get nerfed? Then riddle me this ninja man, why would they need to add the functionality to mark wrecks as FFA if they planned on keeping the currect system as is? My suspicion is that the Ninja salvages are going to get a very rude awakening with the Dominion patch. Now I could be wrong but I think not. And those are some tears that I can't wait to harvest. You say,"but but but" once again why unless there were plans to change the existing wreck ownership mechanic would CCP waste the resources to code the ability to grant FFA access to wrecks? The answer is there isn't any other justification. Because the status quo is FFA wrecks as it is so the added functionality must have a reason. Soon Ninja Salvaging will have the same risks associated with it as can flipping. Which seems more than reasonable. I mean how hard would it be to mount some guns on your salvage ship so you could fight the mission runners for their loot? Truly? Do you have a link for this, I'm quite interested? Searched around the test forums a bit, couldn't find anything so far. As for the real topic of this thread, depends what I'm in the mood or have time to make. Sometimes eggs and pancakes on the weekends, cereal and a sandwich usually, maybe leftovers another time, and sometimes something random just to change it up. --- Originally by:** CCP Mitnal Locked. OP does not contain an idea.
AlphaJuliet Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord	Posted - 2009.10.19 13:11:00 - [32] I am SO making french toast (bread dipped in whisked eggs then thrown in a pan) and some scrambled eggs once the parentals are gone to work. On the OP's topic... As in RL salvage rights, salvage belongs to the original owner of the ship first. Since that would be stupid in Eve (giving kill rights to you for getting blown up, then a second set for them looting/salvaging) it's down to the first person to actually grab it. Note, the actual loot inside the wreck is still considered to belong to the destroyer. But, maybe we should change it so that anything INSIDE of a deadspace complex or pocket (basically all missions) can't be scanned down. That means players, POSs (implementation of personal hideouts anybody?), and even wrecks. Now, change it so that wreck debris fields (it chains. Find one wreck, make it a "field". Add 0.5% sensor strength per each wreck within 200km within that. If there's a single wreck out at 200km, but it has wrecks that are outside of 200km from the original but within 200km of the second, it's all one "debris field") can be probed out with core probes. The more wrecks in the general area the easier it is to scan out. (so 1 wreck is nigh-impossible to find, and 100 would be pretty damn easy) If left for 30 minutes without the original destroyer present, the loot inside becomes fair game. If left for 1 hour after a player has been present (or after that first 30 mins, resetting each time any player comes into the same grid) the wrecks despawn. Same for any cans present. Ninja salvagers are no longer ninja, but stay salvagers, and mission carebears stop whining. PS: Any wrecks within the same grid as a station, stargate, planet, moon, etc. despawn after 2 hours regardless of whether there's player presence or not. Jetcans go poof whenever they go poof. And if it's a 0.0-lowsec stargate/station, consider increasing the amount of debris kept around the object if ships are constantly killed there. Maybe creating a new "debris field" large collidable object outside of 50km that scales depending on how many ships have been destroyed (1 point for shuttle/frigate, 10 for a BS, 100 for a titan. "small" at 15, "medium" at 40, "large" at 75, "Graveyard" at 100+. Only exist around permanent objects like Outposts/stations and stargates in low-nulsec space. They constantly clean themselves up at 1 point per day.)
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.10.19 13:32:00 - [33] Edit: Had an bacon omlett in a sandwich of bread, smoothie and coffe Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world
Phreeze Insidious Existence RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.19 13:39:00 - [34] Hash browns, scrambled eggs but cooked dry and with salt, sausage links, and Tropicana oranje juice.
Nuts Nougat Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.19 13:49:00 - [35] Make an alt, train salvaging and astrometrics to 1. Undock in a frig with a single salvager fitted and a probe launcher fitted. Go salvage wrecks. Since you'll fail at salvaging so much, eventually some bear will shoot at you too early. ???? Tears and/or profit. This will happen a lot if you make salvaging flag people. ---
Trigos Trilobi Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.10.19 13:56:00 - [36] Originally by: AlphaJuliet But, maybe we should change it so that anything INSIDE of a deadspace complex or pocket (basically all missions) can't be scanned down. That means players, POSs (implementation of personal hideouts anybody?), and even wrecks. Now, change it so that wreck debris fields (it chains. Find one wreck, make it a "field". Add 0.5% sensor strength per each wreck within 200km within that. If there's a single wreck out at 200km, but it has wrecks that are outside of 200km from the original but within 200km of the second, it's all one "debris field") can be probed out with core probes. The more wrecks in the general area the easier it is to scan out. (so 1 wreck is nigh-impossible to find, and 100 would be pretty damn easy) The trouble with that solution is that it's just another way of shifting the balance from free-for-all to heavily favour mission runners. Sure, for a mission runner it sounds like a good deal, but it's kinda onesided. Probing wrecks out of deadspace, while a separate matter, should be made possible though, I agree with that. Not to mention it'd make ganking wartarget/lowsec/0.0 mission runners a lot harder.
Jint Hikaru OffWorld Exploration Inc	Posted - 2009.10.19 14:29:00 - [37] @ Skex Relbore Quote: I'm going to laugh of so ***ing hard when they finally nerf Ninja salvaging. And believe me it's coming. Because there isn't another mechanic in this game that is so obviously borked to anyone with an ounce of common sense. Don't believe me that it's going to get nerfed? Then riddle me this ninja man, why would they need to add the functionality to mark wrecks as FFA if they planned on keeping the currect system as is? My suspicion is that the Ninja salvages are going to get a very rude awakening with the Dominion patch. Now I could be wrong but I think not. And those are some tears that I can't wait to harvest. Ok, if this rant was aimed at me, I am NOT a ninja Salvager, I just believe that Salvage should be first come first served. Now, I would love to see the dev blog about this change to salvaging you are talking about. Because the changes they are making are for people who dont want to loot their wrecks, and want to mark it FFA so someone not in their fleet/corp can loot it up. Now if they change ninja salvaging I will be only too happy to post a thread stating my opinion on the change and you are very welcome to come and post a huge 'I told you so' in it. However, if they don't change salvage, I guess you can just email me an appology if you dont want to look like an AsHat on the forum. ------------------------ Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer "I've got a couple of Strippers on my ship... and they just love to dance!" ------------------------
Skex Relbore	Posted - 2009.10.19 14:36:00 - [38] Originally by: Nuts Nougat Make an alt, train salvaging and astrometrics to 1. Undock in a frig with a single salvager fitted and a probe launcher fitted. Go salvage wrecks. Since you'll fail at salvaging so much, eventually some bear will shoot at you too early. ???? Tears and/or profit. This will happen a lot if you make salvaging flag people. Only the true noobs and hell learning the agro mechanic is part of the game besides those aren't the people running level 4s and if they are they deserve to get concordorked. All the mission runner has to do is wait for the salvager to start blinking and the wreck to poof. What I don't understand is how people can defend the status quo while calling those calling for Jetcan like agro mechanisms the carebears. If you ask me the carebears are the people defending the current risk free ninja-salvaging. Such flagging would not eliminate ninja salvaging, people would still be able to do it. It would just become a real ninja thing. Snoop out a mission pop in take a look if the MR is there then just BM and come back later and try to sneak in when they are at the next stage or while they're going back for their salvager. Now Ninja-salvaging is no longer risk free yet it's still a viable profession. Mission runners no longer have a reason to whine. If the salvagers bring in sufficient firepower to deter the MR from agroing, so be it, mission runner writes off the salvage on that mission. Personally the problem I see with the situation and I think that most Mission runners probably agree isn't that ninja salvaging happens and is a viable profession. But rather that as it currently stands it's someone else profiting off their work. And they are left with no options to defend their claims. An agression flag even if the outcome in most cases didn't change (ninja's still get salvage because they either snuck around when you weren't there or came in with sufficient firepower to enforce their claim) The fact that the MR had the option to take action makes it more palatable. It also makes it more consistent with the "cold harsh universe" thing. What the ** is so cold and harsh about coming into a battle feild and looting the corpses while the combatants are still present if you did that in a real "cold harsh universe" you're going to get a bullet for your trouble. Also the ninja's aren't risking "death" unless they are stupid enough to get podded in hisec and the Mission Runner is willing to take a sec status hit. All they are risking is their ship. (and a low risk at that as long as they aren't stupidly salvaging right under the MR's guns.) Which is the exact same thing the Mission Runner did to make those wrecks in the first place. (yeah I know not that much risk in Mission running but low risk is not the same as no risk and not all Mission Runners are 5 year vets rolling in perfectly optimized Marauders. Hell a particularly thrill seeker of a Ninja in a fast salvaging frigate could have fun salvaging wrecks with the MR present. playing cat and mouse with the MR on wrecks that are on the edge of the battle (BC's and BS's are slow as ** in mission after all) Even if the end result was mostly the same the mission runners simply knowing that they do indeed have a recourse other than drag a second account along with a salvage fit destroyer would put an end to all these threads. Hell just think how much it would save CCP on hard disk space alone when the ninja-salvage threads disapear. BTW I couldn't find the post on the wreck flaggin mechanism it was a month or so ago and there was much debate about what it meant mostly from the Ninja's claiming that since it didn't say they were flagging wrecks as owned that it really meant nothing. But since the forum search engine sucks and ninja-salvaging one of the hotter topics in eve I wasn't able to find it.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.10.19 14:51:00 - [39] Can you explain why ninjasalvaging should have risk when missions themselves, which pay better, have none?
Skex Relbore	Posted - 2009.10.19 15:25:00 - [40] Edited by: Skex Relbore on 19/10/2009 15:26:18 Originally by: Kahega Amielden Can you explain why ninjasalvaging should have risk when missions themselves, which pay better, have none? Once again low risk is not the same as no risk. You can indeed lose a ship in missions admitedly it's not a huge risk if you have some experience and play smart but it's still possible. Ninja salvaging has effectivley 0 risk. Besides flagging salvagers actually adds risk to mission running since it is entirely possible to salvage in a ship that can fight (as all the ninja's are always telling the mission runners to do) so it is entirelly with in the realm of possibility for the salvager to destroy the mission runners ship. Once again everyone keeps pretending that the only people who run missions are high SP vets in perfectly optimized ships. Personally I'm running level 3s with a PVP fit BC I'm barely qualified to fly and a couple buddies in similar situations. And I plan on doing L4's as soon as I can get my faction standings high enough and I'll most likely be doing it in the same ship with only marginally better skills. Not everyone is min-maxing vet. In fact I'd suspect that those high sp fully optmized min-maxing mission runners are most likely a minority. Hell as I understand it the real min-maxers doing L4s don't really mess with salvage (or they salvage the choice wrecks on the fly) since they can make more isk chaining the missions. And even in the case of those high sp fully optimized min-maxers it still took them a significant investment of time and resources to train to use those marauders with good skills. The only justification for the current system is that it enables no risk griefing. Every other activity where characters are able to "grief" others carry some level of risk. The can flipper can get ganked the pirate can get hotdroped. Even the suicider can run into a hero tanked hulk/hauler and get nothing for their troubles. The noob wardecers can get noobswarmed the lowsec gatecampers can get blobed to oblivions. Only ninja-salvaging is allowed to persist with no player innitiated counter. I'm not asking for Concord to get involved only for them to turn a blind eye too someone defending their own property just like they do when someone flips a miners can. As it stands now the 'ninjas' are hiding behind Concords protection. Based on some lame rationalizations that CCP dreampt up to avoid having to fix the mechanism. BTW Jint my rants aren't directed towards you or anyone in particular. This is an argument about an video game mechanic there's nothing personal meant or implied. I disagree with those who are defending the status quo that doesn't mean that I think they are bad or stupid people on that I think that their position on this question is wrong. But I'll still laugh my ass off when/if CCP changes salvaging to an agression flag. And I've seen too many dead horses raised from the dead to buy the working as intended never going to change argument. Feel free to giggle with glee when/if I'm wrong.
Trigos Trilobi Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.10.19 15:26:00 - [41] Originally by: Skex Relbore Such flagging would not eliminate ninja salvaging, people would still be able to do it. It would just become a real ninja thing. It's not supposed to be a 'ninja thing', salvage is supposed to be free-for-all. Quote: Now Ninja-salvaging is no longer risk free yet it's still a viable profession. Mission runners no longer have a reason to whine. Of course they have no reason to whine, since the risk on missionrunner's part is completely removed. Quote: Personally the problem I see with the situation and I think that most Mission runners probably agree isn't that ninja salvaging happens and is a viable profession. But rather that as it currently stands it's someone else profiting off their work. And they are left with no options to defend their claims. There is no claim to defend, salvage is free-for-all. Quote: It also makes it more consistent with the "cold harsh universe" thing. What the ** is so cold and harsh about coming into a battle feild and looting the corpses while the combatants are still present if you did that in a real "cold harsh universe" you're going to get a bullet for your trouble. What the is so cold and harsh about removing the risk from mission runner and guaranteeing them a supposedly free-for-all resource, because they don't want to take measures and compete with others after that same resource? Quote: Hell a particularly thrill seeker of a Ninja in a fast salvaging frigate could have fun salvaging wrecks with the MR present. playing cat and mouse with the MR on wrecks that are on the edge of the battle (BC's and BS's are slow as ** in mission after all) If they want that thrill, they can always pick up some loot. In short, you don't like contested resources, so you want game mechanics changed so that you don't have to compete. The argument that you want to introduce risk for the ninjasalvager is just a smokescreen, the real issue is just the above, you don't like the risk of someone else beating you to a contested resource and you don't want to make compromises in your primary income source to give you a better position to compete so you want game mechanics changed to remove this risk. Hell, the fact that you do have to make additional investments and compromises in your mission running rig to be able to salvage on the go effectively is a pretty big sign pointing to salvaging being a separate activity, not just another mission reward.
Altie McName	Posted - 2009.10.19 15:34:00 - [42] Stop while you can trigos, you're about to be flamed for spin, called stupid for suggesting something they can do as a counter, have many of your points ignored so they don't have to be fair in discussion and/or potentially accept a counter point, be ignored for not saying what they want you to say, follow their desires after conflicting with something they might have said already, be told a change is coming without them giving you a link or proper reference, and so on. Do you want to go down this slippery slope of dealing with the biased? --- CCP wants you to HTFU!
Syberbolt8 Gallente Knights of Kador Freedom of Elbas	Posted - 2009.10.19 15:42:00 - [43] Pancakes, eggs fryed medium well, keep the yokes intact so I can eat them with toast, bacon, and a glass of orange juice. Also to lesser importance.... Per CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Support the DEAD HORSE POS's
Skex Relbore	Posted - 2009.10.19 16:14:00 - [44] Found the link link "Player owned wrecks can now be marked as "Available for all" which prevents CONCORD or criminal repercussions for taking from or destroying free for all wrecks. " Admittedly this is open to interpretion primarily upon what CCP means when they refer to "player owned wrecks" they could mean only those wrecks generated by the destruction of the players ship. Then again I wasn't aware that there was any conord action in those cases anyway (save for an agression flag) But having a mechanic in place to mark wrecks specifically as FFA definitely leaves an opening for a change in the current salvaging situation. Regardless the status quo is stupid and frankly I'm not interested in being lectured on risk by someone who engages in a profession that is even less risky than missoin running. As far as competition for resources go? I'm all fine with competing but don't pretend for a moment that it's a competition between a frigate and a BC/BS with a single tractor and salvager on a these several dozen klick battlefields. The L3 mission I did last night was so spread out that there were wrecks 150km apart even looting on the move I filled my cargohold completely before we even cleared the 1st stage. In the end salvaging on the fly was taking so much time that we just fought through then I went and bought 4 tractors and 3 salvagers stuck em on my Brutix and went back and cleaned up after the mission. This prompted me to go ahead and buy a Catalyst to set up for salvaging. Now under the proposed change to flag unauthorized salvagers they still cold have come along behind us and salvaged the wrecks while we were fighting the next stage or going back for a salvage fit there only real risk would be if they did it under our noses. Well the vulture doesn't get with in paws reach of the lion when they're stealing from a carcus. Why shouldn't EVE's scavangers have to behave the same. They could also have rolled in which 2-3 battleships and we'd have had to have just written off the salvage (and probably the loot too) but that's a risk in a PVP game. The cheatah will surender it's kill to the lion pride too. Pretending that the Mission runner is the "carebear" in this situation is silly unless you're definition of carebear is "non-greifer". Further deny it all you want but if it weren't for the mission runners doing all the work to grind the factions to earn the isks to buy the ships and get the skills to fly those ships to run those missions there would be no wrecks to salvage. The Salvager who wants to salvage without the potential risk of getting poped by a ****ed off mission runner can always do what the mission runner does and go get missions to make their own friggin wrecks to salvage. Rationalize it all you want the reality remains that ninja salvaging is sponging off someone elses work and that's theft. Now theft is a valid playstyle in EVE and that's fine but the theives should not be able to hide behind Concords skirt to avoid the consequences of their activity.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.10.19 16:24:00 - [45] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Originally by: Lear Hepburn Constantly Wrecks are useless until salvaged (with a module, a skill and player interaction), therefore they should be unowned. I agree that a short (15-20 minute) timer would allow people the option to take the time to come back and salvage it if they do want it, but perpetual (or even long) ownership would only ever benefit the MR. I agree there should be a timer. I also think people should be able to probe for wrecks that have gone FFA. Originally by: Lear Hepburn You're the one who said nothing would change! Changing the mechanic to what it is now adds a small PvP element (race to get the salvage) to what is otherwise a safe PvE part of the game. Did I say nothing would change? I meant little would change. The thief would still have the advantage. They'd just have to be a little more cautious as there would be some real risk to a cheap ship. There would also be more chance of escalation to real pvp. Both would be good for a PvP game. We appear to be violently agreeing!
Jarvis Hellstrom Gallente The Flying Tigers	Posted - 2009.10.19 16:46:00 - [46] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass I agree there should be a timer. I also think people should be able to probe for wrecks that have gone FFA. Absolutely to both. Also tractor beams should work on anything regardless of ownership. (And keep in mind I'm about as anti ninja as they come but those changes make good immersion sense and keep the mini-profession nicely viable). May God stand between you and harm in all the Empty places you must walk (Old Egyptian Blessing)
Joe Starbreaker Octavian Vanguard	Posted - 2009.10.19 16:51:00 - [47] I used to eat Honey Nut Cheerios regularly, but since I got married, my wife makes me eggs and toast maybe every other day. I can't remember why, when I was young, marriage ever seemed like a bad idea.
Traidor Disloyal Private Nuisance	Posted - 2009.10.19 16:53:00 - [48] I'm kind of on the fence when it comes to people, who are not the mission runner, salvaging wreaks generated by ammo from a mission runners weapons. Making it a flagging offense would make it easier for the people in my corp to engage in "diplomatic relations" with the mission runner after he has declared his "dissatisfaction" with the salvage situation in his mission. Some missions don't have that much loot but almost all have salvage. But, mission runners do have the bounty of the rats in the mission, the LP generated by the completion of the mission, and the isk paid by the agent for the completion of the mission. Is it going overboard to have the salvage risk free for the mission runner also? I run level 4 missions sometimes and that does come out to be a lot of isk for very little risk. And I don't use a Battleship or a Marauder to run level 4 missions. On the plus side for the griefer in me: Another way to get aggro to be able to pop a mission runner and collect isk from his modules. On the plus side for the mission runner in me: More guaranteed mission isk. Win win for me. I vote for aggression timer to be implemented when taking salvage from a wreak not generated by the person salvaging. ************************************************* I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.10.19 17:15:00 - [49] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 19/10/2009 17:16:03 Ultimately, all flagging would do is remove ninjasalvaging as an option for newer players. A missionrunner would have to be ****ed to shoot at ninjas older than a couple months. So missionrunners get the ability to shoot at newbies (who have stolen nothing, because salvage isn't yours). Ignoring this feeling of entitlement missionrunners have (the "ownership" argument has been beaten to death), flagging for salvaging would remove a fun profession from newbies; I've talked to multiple new players who have gotten into EVE through ninjasalvaging. Quote:** Don't believe me that it's going to get nerfed? Then riddle me this ninja man, why would they need to add the functionality to mark wrecks as FFA if they planned on keeping the currect system as is? Because sometimes people want to let others loot from wrecks without fleeting up?
Metalcali Pacific Dawn	Posted - 2009.10.19 17:51:00 - [50] Originally by: Skex Relbore Found the link link "Player owned wrecks can now be marked as "Available for all" which prevents CONCORD or criminal repercussions for taking from or destroying free for all wrecks. " Admittedly this is open to interpretion primarily upon what CCP means when they refer to "player owned wrecks" they could mean only those wrecks generated by the destruction of the players ship. Then again I wasn't aware that there was any conord action in those cases anyway (save for an agression flag) Thank you for that. Guess this is why it wasn't in the dev blogs. Also, this is very loaded as it has several means of interpretation. Best course of action is wait and see how they refer to this before anything can be claimed as concrete. I did love this quote though "The legendary Ammatar Commander Genom Tara has spotted a typo error in his description. We have fixed it and shot those responsible for writing it!" --- Originally by: CCP Mitnal Locked. OP does not contain an idea.
Lemmy Kravitz	Posted - 2009.10.19 18:07:00 - [51] I completely agree with OP. Lemmy doesn't run missions because they bore the snot out of him. But doing a mission to gank someone dumb enough to salvage my wreck, that's enough incentive to get me to mindlessly shoot at NPC's for a while. It's great too because it's out in the middle of no where no stupid station or gate for someone to run away/ hide in. Just fit yourself a scram, a good buffer tank. And have your corpmates wait to come in and gank. I'll make a prediction here. You'll see ninja salvaging drop by about 80% the second they start doing this flagging thing. Cause I'm under the firm belief that ninja salvagers are the ultimate in carebears. Of all the things they could pick to do in EVE they choose the one thing that has absolutly no risk involved to make isk, and grief someone. Can flippers are griefers but rank much higher on the totempole than ninja salvagers.
Lemmy Kravitz	Posted - 2009.10.19 18:17:00 - [52] Originally by: Trigos Trilobi In short, you don't like contested resources, so you want game mechanics changed so that you don't have to compete. The argument that you want to introduce risk for the ninjasalvager is just a smokescreen, the real issue is just the above, you don't like the risk of someone else beating you to a contested resource and you don't want to make compromises in your primary income source to give you a better position to compete so you want game mechanics changed to remove this risk. Hell, the fact that you do have to make additional investments and compromises in your mission running rig to be able to salvage on the go effectively is a pretty big sign pointing to salvaging being a separate activity, not just another mission reward. No in short I'd have to say you're a complete carebear that's scared of the fact he might lose his ship for stealing from someone. You don't like the fact that you won't be able to grief or make isk safely. The fact that having to salvage on the go is only because there is no way to defend your wrecks otherwise. What is a person to do right now? Shoot at the ninja salvager and get concorded? Hell the fact you bring up these thin arguements, show that you are scared ****less that you might actually have to confront and compete against a mission runner for a valuable resource and in the process possibly lose your ship. You want consequence free gaming, go play Wow
Ndkshns	Posted - 2009.10.19 18:17:00 - [53] Ok so tell me how is it fair for someone to spend the time to get up to higher paying better missions just to have someone come in and take the loot without being able to gaurd your loot? I think if your going to be a thief then you should be at the terms of a thief. You come into a mission then the mission runner should be able to pop your ship and get his rightfully earned salvage. If you get away then fine you got away. But in RL you come near me and steal something i earned you going to get hunted and then you get delt with. Mission salvage is actually mission loot. loot = isk. Salvaging is if you come across a wreck and no one is around then its yours. I want the ability to defend my misson and mission loot.
Skex Relbore	Posted - 2009.10.19 18:31:00 - [54] Originally by: Metalcali Originally by: Skex Relbore Found the link link "Player owned wrecks can now be marked as "Available for all" which prevents CONCORD or criminal repercussions for taking from or destroying free for all wrecks. " Admittedly this is open to interpretion primarily upon what CCP means when they refer to "player owned wrecks" they could mean only those wrecks generated by the destruction of the players ship. Then again I wasn't aware that there was any conord action in those cases anyway (save for an agression flag) Thank you for that. Guess this is why it wasn't in the dev blogs. Also, this is very loaded as it has several means of interpretation. Best course of action is wait and see how they refer to this before anything can be claimed as concrete. I did love this quote though "The legendary Ammatar Commander Genom Tara has spotted a typo error in his description. We have fixed it and shot those responsible for writing it!" Like I said it's open to intepretation and I might be wrong (wouldn't be the first time) but this seems like a mechanic that is ripe for a revamp. The current status is completely inconsistent with the rest of the game. It generates a lot of forum volume and argument. And I don't buy the dead horse argument I saw way to many dead horses resurected back my EQ days. Just because a dev says a thing one year does not make it eternal. Particularly when the bean counters think that they might be wrong. I also disagree that flagging would prevent newbies from getting into the salvaging profession I think it would simply add a little more excitement to it. Hell my first PVP battle I was near useless because all the adrenaline pumping though my system. But it was also fun as hell even if I wasn't close to successful (Joined RvB mostly to get over that combat jitter thing) I think it would be far more interesting to scan down a mission pop in and see if they are there Bookmark and boogie if they are then come back in a few minutes and try to scavange while they are off doing something else. All the while watching the scanner to see if they come back. A good PVPer could also bait an over confident mission runner and potentially generate ransom/loot that way. Basically I see a large number of reasons for changing the current system but only one to leave it as is. That one reason being that CCP has in the past defended the practice. Well they can easily change their minds on that. Flagging wrecks like jetcans is good for the mission runners in that it gives them the option to do something about an activity that annoys them. It's good for the PvPrs since it's more oportunity for spaceship pew pew, It's good for hte miners and industrialists since more spaceship pew pew means more blowed up ships which means more demand for ships which means more demand for minerals. Even for the newb salvagers it would be good in that they'd have to learn survival skills and be exposed to the risk that life in EVE is. In fact the only people I can see who it wouldn't be good for are those who's only interest is no risk griefing.
XXSketchxx Gallente Remote Soviet Industries	Posted - 2009.10.19 18:32:00 - [55] Originally by: Ndkshns Ok so tell me how is it fair for someone to spend the time to get up to higher paying better missions just to have someone come in and take the loot without being able to gaurd your loot? if they steal loot, they are flagged. Fire away. Don't come crying when they come back in a Nightmare and make you emorage in local. Quote: get his rightfully earned salvage. Wrecks aren't yours. Salvage isn't created until someone activates a Salvager module on it. If they steal salvage from a can of yours, feel free to fire away. Quote: But in RL :game: Quote: Mission salvage is actually mission loot. no its not. Quote: Salvaging is if you come across a wreck and no one is around then its yours. Salvaging is activating a salvage module on a wreck before someone else does. Quote: I want the ability to defend my misson and mission loot. And you have it. As stated, fire away if they steal your loots. Salvage however, is no ones. protip: leave the mission hub _____________________________________________ -Sketch, Certified Pharmacist Need a Boost?
XXSketchxx Gallente Remote Soviet Industries	Posted - 2009.10.19 18:36:00 - [56] Originally by: Skex Relbore no risk griefing. As opposed to no risk mission running? And its only griefing if the mission runner is stupid enough into think the salvage is theirs (i.e. its griefing in the mission runner's perspective). Otherwise, its just a professional salvager...salvaging. _____________________________________________ -Sketch, Certified Pharmacist Need a Boost?
Skex Relbore	Posted - 2009.10.19 18:48:00 - [57] Originally by: XXSketchxx Originally by: Skex Relbore no risk griefing. As opposed to no risk mission running? And its only griefing if the mission runner is stupid enough into think the salvage is theirs (i.e. its griefing in the mission runner's perspective). Otherwise, its just a professional salvager...salvaging. Once again, Low risk is not no risk. And there is a damned site more risk running missions than in Ninja salvaging. You can loose ships to lag to misjudgements to ignorance to incompetence, There most certainly is risk in mission running. And futher people tend to fly more expensive ships so while the risk of loss might be lower than in other activities the potential loss is actually much greater. What's the salvager risking? A cheap frig a salvager and a probe launcher? What's that a few milliion compared to a mission ship like a Faction BS or Marauder? Hell even compared to my BC it's a pitance of risk. A single tech 2 drone costs more than the Ninja Salvager is risking even if ninja salvaging where changed to flag for agression. So don't use risk to defend this activity.
Trigos Trilobi Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.10.19 18:52:00 - [58] Originally by: Lemmy Kravitz No in short I'd have to say you're a complete carebear that's scared of the fact he might lose his ship for stealing from someone. You don't like the fact that you won't be able to grief or make isk safely. The fact that having to salvage on the go is only because there is no way to defend your wrecks otherwise. What is a person to do right now? Shoot at the ninja salvager and get concorded? Hell the fact you bring up these thin arguements, show that you are scared **less that you might actually have to confront and compete against a mission runner for a valuable resource and in the process possibly lose your ship. You want consequence free gaming, go play Wow That's funny, considering lately most of my isk has been coming from rolling through L4s, and I think I've 'ninjasalvaged' ever once - when someone popped a command ship near me when I was undocking. So really, if you're going to go for personal attacks, atleast do your homework so you don't make a complete moron out of yourself right of the bat. Is it really so hard to accept that not all mission runners share your sentiment that we should have any special priviledges for salvage? If my arguments are so thin, why did you choose the ad hominem route instead of just pointing out the flaws in the them? Also like the 'complete carebear' bit, who's the bigger carebear, the one who wants a fair shot at a free-for-all resource, or the one who can't stand competition and wants it changed to free-for-me-unless-i-don't-want-it resource? Quote:** "Player owned wrecks can now be marked as "Available for all" which prevents CONCORD or criminal repercussions for taking from or destroying free for all wrecks. " To me, that doesn't seem to leave too much to interpretation. It only talks about taking from a wreck or shooting a wreck, not about salvaging at all, so it seems it's aimed at the crowd who've asked making group missions more safe and practical. I'll be quite surprised if this affects salvaging. Also, someone brought yet again the argument that flagging salvage would make things more interesting for the ninjas, that doesn't really work. It makes salvage inaccessible for the people who do it for isk, and the people who want things to be more interesting take your loot anyway so nothing changes for them.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.10.19 18:59:00 - [59] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 19/10/2009 19:02:36 Quote: And there is a damned site more risk running missions than in Ninja salvaging. You can loose ships to lag to misjudgements to ignorance to incompetence, There most certainly is risk in mission running. And futher people tend to fly more expensive ships so while the risk of loss might be lower than in other activities the potential loss is actually much greater. What's the salvager risking? A cheap frig a salvager and a probe launcher? What's that a few milliion compared to a mission ship like a Faction BS or Marauder? Hell even compared to my BC it's a pitance of risk. A single tech 2 drone costs more than the Ninja Salvager is risking even if ninja salvaging where changed to flag for agression. You risk as much as you choose to risk. You can run level 4s without even springing for a lot of t2, and fully insure your t1 BS. Even in these situations, a minute amount of research and a halfway competent fit ensure that you have to fall asleep to lose your missionship. In fact, sometimes even falling asleep wont make you lose your missionship; there are quite a few permatanking setups around. Compare that to ninjasalvaging. The minimum cost is very low, but the effectiveness of ninjasalvaging in a t1 probeship with no rigs or faction stuff (Can always warp into a recon 3/3) and a t1 frigate with t1 mods is rather low compared to doing it with more pimped setups. My ninjalooting boat is a Fleet Stabber. Corpmates of mine who only salvage do so in faction frigs or inties. These are still lower-cost than a missionship, but it is one HELL of a lot easier to lose them. One web rat? You're dead. Get full rat aggro in a situation where you can't speedtank them? You're dead.
XXSketchxx Gallente Remote Soviet Industries	Posted - 2009.10.19 19:04:00 - [60] Edited by: XXSketchxx on 19/10/2009 19:04:43 Originally by: Kahega Amielden You risk as much as you choose to risk. You can run level 4s without even springing for a lot of t2, and fully insure your t1 BS. Even in these situations, a minute amount of research and a halfway competent fit ensure that you have to fall asleep to lose your missionship. Compare that to ninjasalvaging. The minimum cost is very low, but the effectiveness of ninjasalvaging in a t1 probeship with no rigs or faction stuff (Can always warp into a recon 3/3) and a t1 frigate with t1 mods is rather low compared to doing it with more pimped setups. My ninjalooting boat is a Fleet Stabber. Corpmates of mine who only salvage do so in faction frigs or inties. These are still lower-cost than a missionship, but it is one HELL of a lot easier to lose them. One web rat? You're dead. Get full rat aggro in a situation where you can't speedtank them? You're dead. Thank you for saving me the time of responding to his dribble. Anyhow, lets get back on topic. What's your favorite breakfast food? (ninjasalvage whiners can answer this too btw, its a neutral question) _____________________________________________ -Sketch, Certified Pharmacist Need a Boost?

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