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Ninja Salvaging - A simple Idea (lots of those right?)

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Admiral Parck	Posted - 2009.10.19 01:27:00 - [1] Flag'em. That's all I'm asking. Flag'em. Why? Well lets look at a little thing that CCP did that, in my view, kind of voids the moral section of CCP's claim of FFA salvage. When I steal a can from someone else in Empire... I get flagged. When I steal something from a wreak in Empire... No flag. Now, since this a free-lance, no-rules game, why can't I steal from cans without getting flagged? I should be able to, right? One or the other please. Salvaging from other's wreaks is a profession, so is ore theft. Only difference is, ore theft gets you flagged, salvage "theft" does not. I say either: Ninja-Salvage + Ore Theft = Flag Or: Ninja-Salvage + Ore Theft = No Flag Only one or the other equation. Now personally, I fully support theft. It's EVE, and its fun (if you are on the right side of it). The thing about theft though, is that the thieves are for some reason protected. That's not a free-lance everything-goes game. If they take a wreak, I want to shoot at em. And before you go doing dev quotes, please read the following: If someone else kills a ship, the wreak suddenly becomes yellow to me.. just like a can is. So if you want people to quit crying about the whole ownership BS, the devs need to fix the whole color-coded thing with the wreaks. I say anyone and everyone has a case about claiming salvage until the devs fix that. And some simple common sense/Logic: Before salvage was even around, the loot used to drop in cans. And wreaks have loot. If I steal from a can, I get flagged. You take loot from a wreak, you don't get flagged. Do the math. I want to do some podding. Its a free-lance universe, I want to do some free-lance podding of people who have entered the mission complex the EVE client gave to me (and me alone) as a bookmark for a limited period of time. Which I also find rather funny. For some reason, people can go back to the complexes using a bookmark they made, even though the EVE client removed the mission bookmark after the mission finished. It's not an exploit.. just really damned stupid. Move the plex's around please. They are no longer "mission complex's" that require a mission agent, now they're just "free farm zones". Hell its even better than 0.0 ratting. Hmm, ya know what? Screw all of the above. I'm bookmarking this complex. It's probably the richest farm I've seen in 3 years in this game. I'm just going to camp it. After all, it's not an exploit, just really damned stupid. Now here comes the hard part: Re-read the whole thing, and THEN comment. PS: If you're too dumb to see the moral or "theme" in all of this; I think GoonSwarm (though not GoonFleet) is looking for new recruits
XXSketchxx Gallente Remote Soviet Industries	Posted - 2009.10.19 01:30:00 - [2] I didn't read the op. I think we should talk about favorite breakfast food instead. I like bacon and french toast. What about the rest of you? _____________________________________________ -Sketch, Certified Pharmacist Need a Boost?
FISHANDCHIPS	Posted - 2009.10.19 01:58:00 - [3] Originally by: XXSketchxx I didn't read the op. I think we should talk about favorite breakfast food instead. I like bacon and french toast. What about the rest of you? Full english with extra bacon and toast and coffee
Zeek Muaka Caldari Antares Shipyards Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.19 02:19:00 - [4] I actually read the OP, and agree entirely. Pick one or the other; either way, pirates win. Current system just causes issues such as entitlement and ninja salvage whines.
Nieusha	Posted - 2009.10.19 02:46:00 - [5] Originally by: XXSketchxx I didn't read the op. I think we should talk about favorite breakfast food instead. I like bacon and french toast. What about the rest of you?
JordanParey Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.10.19 02:50:00 - [6] FFS, another one of these? Also, I like breakfast. Bacon (chewy), scrambled eggs, hash browns or a biscuit with gravy.
Paul Clavet Honorless Internet Jerks	Posted - 2009.10.19 02:53:00 - [7] You want to do some podding? That's not possible even under current mechanics when someone loots. My opinion? Flag, or don't flag, I don't care. I always loot anyway in hopes that the missionrunner will shoot so I can return and pew him. If you want more of that, then I guess everyone is happy. A prediction, though: You'll eventually get flagging, and then you or carebears like you will call for CONCORD responses to salvaging/looting. Those threads will be even more hilarious. ---- Blog: My Loot, Your Tears
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.10.19 02:59:00 - [8] Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 19/10/2009 02:59:37 I think you all should read the end of Commonly Proposed Ideas and stop trolling. The part were CCP asks for ideas on video and ninja salvaging. The OP is dead on. Why did they change wrecks to be FFA? They replaced loot cans. Loot cans have flagged since late '05 or early '06. When wrecks were added, you had to empty them to salvage. This flagged you. There was no need to change it. We've had nothing but **** and moans since. I don't under stand why you people that like stealing care. Even if salvaging did flag you, theives would still have the advantage 95% of the time. How many mission runners will shoot at someone that steals from a can? I will, but I'm the tiny minority. Not much would change if salvaging flagged.
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2009.10.19 03:03:00 - [9] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass The OP is dead on. Why did they change wrecks to be FFA? They replaced loot cans. Loot cans have flagged since late '05 or early '06. When wrecks were added, you had to empty them to salvage. This flagged you. There was no need to change it. We've had nothing but ** and moans since. Oh hell yes it did - that was a huge pain in the ass! I'm so glad they allow people to salvage without emptying the wreck first. Cripes. MAN that was annoying. Also, I'm not sure that they know what they're asking for. Flagging might net you a kill but then you're going to be docked for 15 minutes while they sit in your mission in a neut Domi + logistics, or station camp you. And that's assuming they don't finish your mission for you and ransom the item back to you. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum *** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
XXSketchxx Gallente Remote Soviet Industries	Posted - 2009.10.19 03:06:00 - [10] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass The OP is dead on. Why did they change wrecks to be FFA? They replaced loot cans. Loot cans have flagged since late '05 or early '06. When wrecks were added, you had to empty them to salvage. This flagged you. There was no need to change it. We've had nothing but **** and moans since. Oh hell yes it did - that was a huge pain in the ass! I'm so glad they allow people to salvage without emptying the wreck first. Cripes. MAN that was annoying. Also, I'm not sure that they know what they're asking for. Flagging might net you a kill but then you're going to be docked for 15 minutes while they sit in your mission in a neut Domi + logistics, or station camp you. And that's assuming they don't finish your mission for you and ransom the item back to you. -Liang STAY ON TOPIC WHAT DO YOU LIKE TO HAVE FOR BREAKFAST?!?! _____________________________________________ -Sketch, Certified Pharmacist Need a Boost?

Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2009.10.19 03:12:00 - [11] Originally by: XXSketchxx STAY ON TOPIC WHAT DO YOU LIKE TO HAVE FOR BREAKFAST?!?! burrito (carne asada/egg+bacon/chorizo) & Coffee (black, no sugar). -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
SupaKudoRio	Posted - 2009.10.19 03:22:00 - [12] Edited by: SupaKudoRio on 19/10/2009 03:22:40 Pancakes. Mmmm... With either strawberry, chocolate or maple syrup. (No, I'm not American.) I'd be all for salvaging wrecks to flag... oh, the fun to be had. On another note, how do you like your pods in the morning?
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.10.19 03:31:00 - [13] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass The OP is dead on. Why did they change wrecks to be FFA? They replaced loot cans. Loot cans have flagged since late '05 or early '06. When wrecks were added, you had to empty them to salvage. This flagged you. There was no need to change it. We've had nothing but **** and moans since. Oh hell yes it did - that was a huge pain in the ass! I'm so glad they allow people to salvage without emptying the wreck first. Cripes. MAN that was annoying. Also, I'm not sure that they know what they're asking for. Flagging might net you a kill but then you're going to be docked for 15 minutes while they sit in your mission in a neut Domi + logistics, or station camp you. And that's assuming they don't finish your mission for you and ransom the item back to you. -Liang Yeah actually it was annoying. I know why they changed it, because it's what people asked for. They should have put the flag on the wreck as well as the can when they did. The mechanics already worked that way and there was no documentation or testing before the change. It' already possible to bait someone into shooting at a thief in a mission. If you can't kill a nuet domi, don't shoot at the thief. Nothing would change if wrecks flagged when salvaged.
XXSketchxx Gallente Remote Soviet Industries	Posted - 2009.10.19 03:36:00 - [14] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass stuff about salvage yeah... but what do you like for breakfast? _____________________________________________ -Sketch, Certified Pharmacist Need a Boost?
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2009.10.19 03:37:00 - [15] Do you need a module to get loot? Does opening the can/wreck have a chance to fail or succeed? Do you need skills trained up to open a can/wreck? Could it be that salvage and loot are 2 different things? That threating them as 2 different things, as currently in-game, is perfectly fine? Salvage does not exist until someone succesfully runs a salvager on it. How do you steal something that doesn't exist? Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Dianeces The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.10.19 05:07:00 - [16] Edited by: Dianeces on 19/10/2009 05:08:24 Wreck. It is wreck, not wreak. Wreak is a verb, wreck (in this usage) is a noun. hth
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.10.19 05:17:00 - [17] If it's in a can and you take it you get flagged. If it's not in a can and you take it you don't. Simples!
Tau Dades Caldari Even End of the Universe	Posted - 2009.10.19 05:20:00 - [18] I like cold pizza for breakfast. sometimes with ranch dressing to dip. I was just thinking, we need moar ninja salvage whines. I haven't seen one in a long time.
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.10.19 05:57:00 - [19] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Nothing would change if wrecks flagged when salvaged. If that's the case then why bother with all the trouble of changing the code?
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.10.19 05:57:00 - [20] Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 19/10/2009 06:01:40 Originally by: Washell Olivaw Do you need a module to get loot? Does opening the can/wreck have a chance to fail or succeed? Do you need skills trained up to open a can/wreck? Could it be that salvage and loot are 2 different things? That threating them as 2 different things, as currently in-game, is perfectly fine? Salvage does not exist until someone succesfully runs a salvager on it. How do you steal something that doesn't exist? It's all valuable. That makes all of it loot by definition. Loot theft has flagged since at least early '06. Salvage followed the same mechanic till they stealth changed it. Originally by: Lear Hepburn If it's in a can and you take it you get flagged. If it's not in a can and you take it you don't. Simples! Daddy still says huh? Do ya ever think for yourself? Originally by: Lear Hepburn Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Nothing would change if wrecks flagged when salvaged. If that's the case then why bother with all the trouble of changing the code? Why did they bother with the stealth change in the first place then? If they hadn't, it would have saved months of crying on the forums.

Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2009.10.19 06:15:00 - [21] I just like toast personally, or bacon... mmm... bacon...
Lear Hepburn Caldari Ascendant Strategies Inc. The Transcendent	Posted - 2009.10.19 06:56:00 - [22] Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Originally by: Lear Hepburn If it's in a can and you take it you get flagged. If it's not in a can and you take it you don't. Simples! Daddy still says huh? Do ya ever think for yourself? Constantly Wrecks are useless until salvaged (with a module, a skill and player interaction), therefore they should be unowned. I agree that a short (15-20 minute) timer would allow people the option to take the time to come back and salvage it if they do want it, but perpetual (or even long) ownership would only ever benefit the MR. Originally by: Lear Hepburn Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass Nothing would change if wrecks flagged when salvaged. If that's the case then why bother with all the trouble of changing the code? Why did they bother with the stealth change in the first place then? If they hadn't, it would have saved months of crying on the forums. You're the one who said nothing would change! Changing the mechanic to what it is now adds a small PvP element (race to get the salvage) to what is otherwise a safe PvE part of the game.
Fullmetal Jackass	Posted - 2009.10.19 07:08:00 - [23] Originally by: Lear Hepburn Constantly Wrecks are useless until salvaged (with a module, a skill and player interaction), therefore they should be unowned. I agree that a short (15-20 minute) timer would allow people the option to take the time to come back and salvage it if they do want it, but perpetual (or even long) ownership would only ever benefit the MR. I agree there should be a timer. I also think people should be able to probe for wrecks that have gone FFA. Originally by: Lear Hepburn You're the one who said nothing would change! Changing the mechanic to what it is now adds a small PvP element (race to get the salvage) to what is otherwise a safe PvE part of the game. Did I say nothing would change? I meant little would change. The thief would still have the advantage. They'd just have to be a little more cautious as there would be some real risk to a cheap ship. There would also be more chance of escalation to real pvp. Both would be good for a PvP game.
Brechan Skene	Posted - 2009.10.19 08:35:00 - [24] Originally by: XXSketchxx I didn't read the op. I think we should talk about favorite breakfast food instead. I like bacon and french toast. What about the rest of you? I tend to like some yogurt with cereal, like gluten free muesli, and maybe some fresh fruit as well I also try and get some protein as well.But I generally do not have a favorite, tuna in a can is usually the go but I sometimes have a protein drink if I am in a rush Also I am quite surprised by the recent lack of "the salvage is mine" whines. It is so nice that we can have a decent conversation about favorite breakfast for a change
Jint Hikaru OffWorld Exploration Inc	Posted - 2009.10.19 09:49:00 - [25] When will you cry babys learn that SALVAGE is a first come first served item. Thats what salvage is.... the first person to 'salvage' gains owner** rights to the salvagable items. If you want the salvage then take of a module from your mission ship and fit a salvager. Yes I know it will 'gimp' your minmax missioning setup (waaaa, something else to cry about), and it will add whole mins to your missioning time, totally ruining your isk/hour mission income (another waaaaa). On a more important note - Sausage sandwich in white bloomer bread with fried egg and a little cheese + brown sauce! ------------------------ Jint Hikaru** - Miner / Salvager / Explorer "I've got a couple of Strippers on my ship... and they just love to dance!" ------------------------
Mad Maulkin	Posted - 2009.10.19 11:19:00 - [26] Did not read the OP either, except to say that: If you steal from a wreck you get flagged, same as ore theft... you should try stuff before you post on it... The lvl of stupid in eve is supricingly high... nerf it please CCP.. Or you are just an epicly bad troll, and should be banned for the forum... the amount of erronious statements in your would be stagering if i acctually read the post CLose this rant please Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world
Skex Relbore	Posted - 2009.10.19 11:28:00 - [27] Originally by: Jint Hikaru When will you cry babys learn that SALVAGE is a first come first served item. Thats what salvage is.... the first person to 'salvage' gains owner** rights to the salvagable items. If you want the salvage then take of a module from your mission ship and fit a salvager. Yes I know it will 'gimp' your minmax missioning setup (waaaa, something else to cry about), and it will add whole mins to your missioning time, totally ruining your isk/hour mission income (another waaaaa). On a more important note - Sausage sandwich in white bloomer bread with fried egg and a little cheese + brown sauce! I'm going to laugh of so **ing hard when they finally nerf Ninja salvaging. And believe me it's coming. Because there isn't another mechanic in this game that is so obviously borked to anyone with an ounce of common sense. Don't believe me that it's going to get nerfed? Then riddle me this ninja man, why would they need to add the functionality to mark wrecks as FFA if they planned on keeping the currect system as is? My suspicion is that the Ninja salvages are going to get a very rude awakening with the Dominion patch. Now I could be wrong but I think not. And those are some tears that I can't wait to harvest. You say,"but but but" once again why unless there were plans to change the existing wreck ownership mechanic would CCP waste the resources to code the ability to grant FFA access to wrecks? The answer is there isn't any other justification. Because the status quo is FFA wrecks as it is so the added functionality must have a reason. Soon Ninja Salvaging will have the same risks associated with it as can flipping. Which seems more than reasonable. I mean how hard would it be to mount some guns on your salvage ship so you could fight the mission runners for their loot?
AsheraII	Posted - 2009.10.19 11:44:00 - [28] Originally by: Lear Hepburn I agree that a short (15-20 minute) timer would allow people the option to take the time to come back and salvage it if they do want it, but perpetual (or even long) ownership would only ever benefit the MR. I think any timer involved would mean that leaving and coming back for salvage should mean that by the time you get back to the location, the salvage rights should definitely no longer be exclusive. So 3-5 minutes max, to allow people to salvage as they go through the site without a third party hitting the salvage button the second the target pops could be deemed fair. So yes, they'd HAVE to equip a salvager on their mission ship if they want to be the only one salvaging. No pain - no gain. If they feel they need their highslots for other things, and opt for switching ships to salvage, then they should risk missing out on the salvage. But I must say, I'm still dead against the whole idea of exclusive rights for salvaging. In that case, they might as well include the salvage in the lootcan instead and get rid of the whole skill. Which CCP obviously didn't do, so there's obviously something different between the two. The difference having something to do with permissions to aquire the salvages.
Trigos Trilobi Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.10.19 12:03:00 - [29] Edited by: Trigos Trilobi on 19/10/2009 12:04:17 Edited by: Trigos Trilobi on 19/10/2009 12:03:34 Amazingly original idea, certainly worth a new thread instead of just voicing your opinion in one of the bazillion other threads which suggest flagging salvagers. As for the idea itself, flagging someone for 'stealing' something that doesn't belong to you doesn't make sense. I admit the system is a bit confusing though, and it's easy to be overcome by greed and feel that you're robbed out of something even if it's been explained by the devs multiple times that this is not the case. My solution to clear up the confusion and make salvaging just slightly more fair towards the professional salvager as opposed to mission runner/salvager: -empty wrecks spawn with no ownership -wrecks with loot can be tractored by anyone, but if anyone but the owner tractors them, they lose ownership and spawn a can with the loot in it with ownership intact at the spot -when a mission runner turns a mission in at his agent, an easily probeable beacon is spawned at each mission pocket which will last as long as the wrecks do
Alfons Richthofen Caldari Die Luftwaffe	Posted - 2009.10.19 12:16:00 - [30] Originally by: XXSketchxx I didn't read the op. I think we should talk about favorite breakfast food instead. I like bacon and french toast. What about the rest of you? Eggs bacon and buttered toast with orange juice... Or pizza pops.



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