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Millsy1
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Posted - 2009.10.19 16:28:00 -
[1]
This is something I noticed on the test server during the supercap test.
While I was able to speed tank the titans that use projectile/laser/hybrid guns in my broadsword. A single volley of torps from the Caldari titan pop'd the broadsword.
The Broadsword was setup using the maximum shield buffer tank using shield extenders of course (so it's sig radius is quite large, but most broadswords are tanked in a similar way)
Seeing as these things can have upwards of 40million EHP. Locking one down long enough to kill it without 4 or 5 other supercaps would seem almost impossible.
A Saber would probably be able to get in/out without getting inside any smartbomb range, but if there is any semblance of a support fleet, they won't be much use holding a titan.
Ancored bubbles I don't really see being the answer. But what else do you do if a caldari titan can pop a hic as soon as it can target it?
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Illectroculus Defined
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Posted - 2009.10.19 16:58:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Millsy1
While I was able to speed tank the titans that use projectile/laser/hybrid guns in my broadsword. A single volley of torps from the Caldari titan pop'd the broadsword.
Were you speed tanking using a MWD which increases your damage from the torps?
But yes it does seem that holding a titan down long enough to stop it kicking and screaming is going to require multiple HICtors (and maybe some spares)
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Stealthbug
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Posted - 2009.10.19 17:20:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Millsy1 This is something I noticed on the test server during the supercap test.
While I was able to speed tank the titans that use projectile/laser/hybrid guns in my broadsword. A single volley of torps from the Caldari titan pop'd the broadsword.
The Broadsword was setup using the maximum shield buffer tank using shield extenders of course (so it's sig radius is quite large, but most broadswords are tanked in a similar way)
Seeing as these things can have upwards of 40million EHP. Locking one down long enough to kill it without 4 or 5 other supercaps would seem almost impossible.
A Saber would probably be able to get in/out without getting inside any smartbomb range, but if there is any semblance of a support fleet, they won't be much use holding a titan.
Ancored bubbles I don't really see being the answer. But what else do you do if a caldari titan can pop a hic as soon as it can target it?
40 million EHP? please tell me you're deliberately being sarcastic >_>; Otherwise tell me what magical fittings your using to get such an absurd amount. i can understand maybe 6 million... maybe...
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Nuts Nougat
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.10.19 17:27:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Stealthbug
Originally by: Millsy1 This is something I noticed on the test server during the supercap test.
While I was able to speed tank the titans that use projectile/laser/hybrid guns in my broadsword. A single volley of torps from the Caldari titan pop'd the broadsword.
The Broadsword was setup using the maximum shield buffer tank using shield extenders of course (so it's sig radius is quite large, but most broadswords are tanked in a similar way)
Seeing as these things can have upwards of 40million EHP. Locking one down long enough to kill it without 4 or 5 other supercaps would seem almost impossible.
A Saber would probably be able to get in/out without getting inside any smartbomb range, but if there is any semblance of a support fleet, they won't be much use holding a titan.
Ancored bubbles I don't really see being the answer. But what else do you do if a caldari titan can pop a hic as soon as it can target it?
40 million EHP? please tell me you're deliberately being sarcastic >_>; Otherwise tell me what magical fittings your using to get such an absurd amount. i can understand maybe 6 million... maybe...
Anything below 40mil on sisi is quite terrible actually... ---
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Millsy1
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Posted - 2009.10.19 18:24:00 -
[5]
At the time I was using the 3 medium extender rigs and 4 T2 shield extenders. + 2 T2 invulns with 3 T2 shield power relays and a suitcase. No MWD, orbiting at 5km. It is a very standard setup for a broadsword.
And ya. Like the others have said, you can get a titan with more than 40M ehp with officer mods (which generally real titans use, because if you are spending 50b on a ship, go spend the other 15b to get real mods) The highest I've seen is an Erebus with 46m EHP, even T2 fit Supercarriers can get 17M EHP buffers.
Hell a dread can get 3M EHP.
Anyway, back to the point. If a Titan can one-shot a broadsword, how do you keep a titan on the field long enough to kill it? 5 broadswords in a fleet of 100 would be -very- nice, but assuming 30 seconds to target each one as they come on the field. + 10 seconds to fire and hit. thats not even 4 minutes. So The titan fires a DD, it can't move for 30 seconds. And it spends the rest of the time getting rid of the 5 Hictors, then it leaves. Generally it would take more than 5 minutes to go get some more ships to most locations of a titan fight.
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Dan Grobag
Caldari French Empire Squad
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Posted - 2009.10.19 18:31:00 -
[6]
Maybe have some spare HICs in carriers ship bay.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.10.19 18:32:00 -
[7]
the obvious answer, LAG!
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Alizandro Goderaski
Minmatar Broski Enterprises No Fun Allowed
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Posted - 2009.10.19 19:44:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Millsy1 At the time I was using the 3 medium extender rigs and 4 T2 shield extenders. + 2 T2 invulns with 3 T2 shield power relays and a suitcase. No MWD, orbiting at 5km. It is a very standard setup for a broadsword.
And ya. Like the others have said, you can get a titan with more than 40M ehp with officer mods (which generally real titans use, because if you are spending 50b on a ship, go spend the other 15b to get real mods) The highest I've seen is an Erebus with 46m EHP, even T2 fit Supercarriers can get 17M EHP buffers.
Hell a dread can get 3M EHP.
Anyway, back to the point. If a Titan can one-shot a broadsword, how do you keep a titan on the field long enough to kill it? 5 broadswords in a fleet of 100 would be -very- nice, but assuming 30 seconds to target each one as they come on the field. + 10 seconds to fire and hit. thats not even 4 minutes. So The titan fires a DD, it can't move for 30 seconds. And it spends the rest of the time getting rid of the 5 Hictors, then it leaves. Generally it would take more than 5 minutes to go get some more ships to most locations of a titan fight.
Use interdictors instead then, cheaper.
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Kuzya Morozov
Gallente Stir Crazy Research and Manufacturing Wicked Nation
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Posted - 2009.10.19 19:47:00 -
[9]
Oh no, the most expensive ship in the game is going to be harder to kill! What are we going to do!
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Stealthbug
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Posted - 2009.10.19 20:06:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kuzya Morozov Oh no, the most expensive ship in the game is going to be harder to kill! What are we going to do!
This.
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Ivanna Nuke
Daralux
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Posted - 2009.10.19 20:19:00 -
[11]
You must simply, harness the cowbell.
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Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
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Posted - 2009.10.19 21:21:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kuzya Morozov Oh no, the most expensive ship in the game is going to be harder to kill! What are we going to do!
If you listen really carefully, and cup your hand around you ear, you can actually hear the OPs point flying straight over this guys head.
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Elsa Nietzsche
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Posted - 2009.10.19 21:32:00 -
[13]
Is this just limited to the caldari Titan? I can't imagine any turrent/lazer titan being able to hit anything less than a dread.
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ElfeGER
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.10.19 21:38:00 -
[14]
hmmm with the dd and a trapped titan, guess what might shoot first
anyway did you try a non moon sized fitting for a heavy interdictor? from time to time fittings actually need to change...
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Avatoin
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Posted - 2009.10.19 22:49:00 -
[15]
Well... actually the ability for missiles to hit moving targets was suppose to be one of the high points of missiles over turrets. It starts to balance out a bit when you take into account how turrets tend to get higher DPS, rate of fire and don't have a delay to damage.
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Deva Blackfire
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.10.19 23:10:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 19/10/2009 23:10:32
Originally by: Alizandro Goderaski
Use interdictors instead then, cheaper.
Lowsec guide says they dont work there. Unless you meant bumping.
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Kell Braugh
Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.10.20 01:33:00 -
[17]
Yeah, its an issue i brought up earlier... in the feedback thread to which the responded with the 50% turret tracking penalty.
An afterburning devoter orbting @1200 now last more than 3 volleys from an erebus/avatar. My last test lasted about 3 minutes, granted that was with a solo erebus and a dual 1600mm plate fit devoter. With this kinda time, you can tacke em with a couple (3-4) HICs and logistics if you rotate who has a bubble up and who is getting repped. - In essence, any combat related activity involving damage has been 'speed nerfed' to just take 6 times longer with a predetermined outcome coined balance by CCP. |
Alxea
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Posted - 2009.10.20 05:00:00 -
[18]
With the super carrier like a Aeon with T2 about 25mill ehp on eve's ingame ehp calculator wile I was testing. Before they could only get 10mill ehp. Its about time they where like real fortresses in space, they need to be hard as planets to last long enough in big cap fleets to be useful.
Before all titans and moms where used for was nothing more then to place a dd on the field and then run away, if they where caught the where dead. And moms couldn't do any useful damage on the field. It was wrong a 20 man BS gang could take them out easily. Now they can do their roll. 40mill ehp is from deadspace fittings on super carriers and titans.
Titans are the end of all end ships same with super carriers, they are anti-capital capital ships. Thats what they are as ccp envisioned. There's nothing overpowered about them ehp wise. They are freaken 10 miles long what do you expect? Them to go down like paper when their armor is as thick as a damn BS's entire width? That doesn't sound realistic when they went down like paper up until dominion. They are bigger then pos's, they are mobile starbases. There ehp had to reflect as that.
This is what makes cap battles so interesting now, who can field these ships will have cap on cap battles that last hours. And super cap pilots will nolonger be so weak and their only use will nolonger be a I win button with aoe DD's. The DD's have been balanced now into a single attack on one ship. And super cap vs super cap will take a long time to duke it out. This is always how it should have been years ago.
They are finally worth the isk they cost. If you don't like it adapt or not.
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Millsy1
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Posted - 2009.10.20 05:23:00 -
[19]
It is a concern that we get a return to the lowsec virtually invulnerable times that motherships enjoyed for some time. How many of you were around during the days when a single mom could come into lowsec and kill virtually without any concern of being killed. Literally the -only- way to stop them was to continually bump them while having enough NOS (neuts at the time were useless) to keep their cap below jump capability.
It doesn't even seem to make any sense that a cruiser is the -only- thing that can hold a titan in one spot in low sec.
Myself what I think? I think Moms and Titans should be able to hold other supercaps in place. That would help encourage the real slug out fights everyone. But that is more for the "features" forum.
Once the test server comes back up (or it's up and I can't find the new patch) I'll see what other setups might work. But go look at most broadsword setups, and they are all probably going to have shield extenders. It's definitely not a great armor tanker.
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Zeba
Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.10.20 05:38:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Millsy1 Myself what I think? I think Moms and Titans should be able to hold other supercaps in place. That would help encourage the real slug out fights everyone. But that is more for the "features" forum.
How about a capital warp disruptor and scram that effects supercaps?
Quote: [03:39:05] Emperor Salazar > HOLY **** ITS ZEBA [03:39:20] Emperor Salazar > NEVER STOP POASTING
Zeba is the BEST! ~Mitnal |
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Nuts Nougat
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.10.20 08:07:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Millsy1 Myself what I think? I think Moms and Titans should be able to hold other supercaps in place. That would help encourage the real slug out fights everyone. But that is more for the "features" forum.
How about a capital warp disruptor and scram that effects supercaps?
Capital focused hictor point tbh. ---
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xttz
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.10.20 08:07:00 -
[22]
Repeating this here because the jump drive part is relevant.
Originally by: xttz Instead I believe a better solution is actually something CCP have mentioned is already in the works - Ship Sub-systems on supercaps.
Firstly, increase supercapital HP slightly further to make less effective to destroy the ship from the start, but more effective to disable them first. Perhaps this can be done with a large structure resistance bonus. Introduce targetable sub systems. Each of these will have a reasonable shield/armour layer as a buffer, followed by a larger structure layer. The shield and armour can have their resistances improved by certain passive modules (such as adaptive nanos and shield resistance amps*). This gives the supercap the option of compromising its other fittings to protect its subsystems. Once the structure of a subsystem takes damage, it begins to affect the related system in the ship itself. Sub-systems would have an appropriate sig radius to encourage attack by non-capital ships.
Subsystems have the following effects: Weapons - Reduces the ships locking range and scan resolution as it takes damage. Perhaps it also causes loss of drone control range or reduces max number of drones controlled. This subsystem provides a way to disable or reduce the effectiveness of weapons and fighters. Engineering - Causes the ships cap recharge rate and total energy capacity to drop. Propulsion - Once this subsystem hits 50% structure the supercapital can no longer activate its jump drive. As the structure further degrades, it reduces agility, increasing the time needed to align for warp. This provides a solution to the 'dictor problem' - keeping multiple supercaps held down for long enough to kill. Electronics - Disabling this subsystem causes specialised modules to go offline, including Doomsdays, Remote ECM Burst and Jump Portal Generator. Communication - By damaging this subsystem the supercap is no longer to give or recieve fleet bonuses, including its own.
With some careful tweaking of subsystem damage effects, hitpoint levels and signature radius, this mechanic provides: 1. A solution to dealing with multiple supercaps on the field. 2. A better objective for smaller ships in large fights. 3. New niches for current or future ships - ones specialised in subsystem damage or repair in combat. 4. Better balance to superweapons - organised fleets will learn to disable them quickly. 5. A personal desire of mine - seeing a tactical use of ship scanners in combat. Is the enemy titan fit to tank its armour, or did it compromise that in order to protect its subsystems?
*giving these currently under-used modules more worth
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Spartan dax
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Posted - 2009.10.20 10:01:00 -
[23]
Fit AB on an armoutanking hic instead and see how well that Caldari Titan hits you.
Oh what, lul fail AB?
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Bobbechk
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.10.20 10:42:00 -
[24]
i heard of a legend shiptype called dictor (not Hictor) i really dont know what it is but my guess it they might do a better job at eluding capital size turrets v0v
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illusionary beauty
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.10.20 11:15:00 -
[25]
Edited by: illusionary beauty on 20/10/2009 11:21:19
Originally by: Millsy1 This is something I noticed on the test server during the supercap test.
While I was able to speed tank the titans that use projectile/laser/hybrid guns in my broadsword. A single volley of torps from the Caldari titan pop'd the broadsword.
He probably had 4-5 target painters on you or you had your MWD on with focus script loaded and he was target painting you. Those torps have a massive reduction in damage against anything under 500m sig radius. Also shield extenders and rigs = more sig radius.
Quote: Propulsion - Once this subsystem hits 50% structure the supercapital can no longer activate its jump drive. As the structure further degrades, it reduces agility, increasing the time needed to align for warp. This provides a solution to the 'dictor problem' - keeping multiple supercaps held down for long enough to kill.
Lawl, what a fail idea. So now if a SC drops under 50% structure and manages to warp out you will need a cap fleet to rep the structure before it can go home. Honestly if you fail at holding down a supercap with a fleet bc you only have 1 tackler is pretty fail. Its not hard to tackle and kill a SC as long as you are winning the fight fleet v. fleet.
Also in order to implement any of those other changes they would have to boost SC a ton more than they are on Test bc all those changes just make SCs rediculously crappy.
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HeliosGal
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Posted - 2009.10.20 11:34:00 -
[26]
some unitended side affects CCP needs to look at i envisage for every HIC there should be 5 dictor pilots as back up. Either that or the caldari titan becomes the new iwin button
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Millsy1
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Posted - 2009.10.20 13:02:00 -
[27]
Originally by: illusionary beauty Edited by: illusionary beauty on 20/10/2009 11:21:19
He probably had 4-5 target painters on you or you had your MWD on with focus script loaded and he was target painting you. Those torps have a massive reduction in damage against anything under 500m sig radius. Also shield extenders and rigs = more sig radius.
No he had zero target painters on me, and I did not have a MWD fit. As I said before, I had 4 Extender II's on, but I think it would be rare to find a Broadsword without at least 2 or 3. They are not an armor tanking ship for 90% of fleet fights.
But the target painters are definitely going to be a great idea for people to use during fights. Minmatar ships might actually be desired over others to support a titan. And does anyone know if remote sensor boosters work on titans? Or does that count as "EW"? Putting 2 or 3 on would drastically help the lock-on times and with a few TP's, clearing out hics would be a breeze.
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DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.10.20 13:03:00 -
[28]
So what is really going to hold a titan in place now?
2 Heavy Interdictors ?
[url=http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/view/player-DeadDuck-kills.html][/url] [b]_______ |
HeliosGal
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Posted - 2009.10.20 13:07:00 -
[29]
nope it counts as EW, however BC gang support and ocmmand links arent included i dont think. Still something for ccp to look at before dominions goes live
Then again with new combat system for super ships theres bound to be a few holes
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Franconis
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.10.20 15:38:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Millsy1
... A single volley of torps from the Caldari titan pop'd the broadsword...
You are basing your whole thread on the dynamic between two specific ships. The Leviathan which has citadel torps (and now cruise), and the Broadsword which when using a standard shield buffer has a gigantic sig radius.
In EVERY other matchup between a titan and a hictor, there is no case of an instapop unless they are both sitting perfectly still. Needless to say, not all titan vs hictor encounters will involve only these two types of ships. If a Levi can instapop your Broadsword, fly a different hictor instead. Adapt or die.
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