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Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2009.10.21 01:21:00 - [91] Originally by: Divinely Inspirational Problem: 11% tax is hurting your pocket Solution: Train DED Connections skill to 3 or 4 and gain 4500 - 6000 ISK more per NPC you pop If you have the DED connection skill book on TQ, you'd be set for life by auctioning it off. Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Erichk Knaar Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.10.21 02:33:00 - [92] Originally by: Ava Santiago To put it bluntly - the average Eve player lacks the social skills needed to play a complex game like WoW - and WoW provides an environment where trust is possible between individuals. Eve fails to provide an environment where you can trust anyone contacting you directly. Wait, what? Trust is earned. Learn how to make others prove their trustworthiness.
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.10.21 02:37:00 - [93] This wonderful defense I'm getting "for free" in an NPC Corp is defense from WarDec extortionists. There's nothing to stop the same WarDeccers coming back over and over. So there is no point in buying them off, nor in using Mercs. If they are stronger, you can stop playing or you can disband. Surely this is a major cause of the collapse of new/weak player Corps? I don't understand why anyone imagines they are "good for the game". Yet CCP have decided to use them as a means to influence my behavior, which makes them griefers too. It doesn't give me any confidence for the future.
Erichk Knaar Caldari Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.10.21 02:39:00 - [94] Originally by: Alexis Rakun Take a look at the wardec system, maybe impose some limits. In my professional estimation. It needs work. It doesn't need limits, but it does need tools to spell out the grievance and acceptable outcomes. If they changed it to support things like goals, areas of conflict and built in surrender terms, all with scaling costs. I think it would go a long way to suppress most peoples qualms about it. I know a lot of people in my trade would like it that way, as it could be used as a measure of quality and success. I think it would be less arbitrary for newer players too, if the terms of the war were clearly laid out to them.
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2009.10.21 02:44:00 - [95] Originally by: Ava Santiago WoW provides an environment where trust is possible between individuals. Eve fails to provide an environment where you can trust anyone contacting you directly. Wrong way round: WoW is babyproofed, other than social engineering nothing can happen. Trust doesn't enter into it and is on the whole unneeded. EVE provides an open environment where trust and distrust are needed and healthy, allowing for more complex interactions between players. Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.10.21 03:00:00 - [96] Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 21/10/2009 03:00:39 EVE fosters DISTRUST, not trust. The entire eve environment rotates around thievery, mayhem, victimization and griefing. Not trust. I will tell every one of you dumb**s screaming about "you gotta trust" "you gotta work together" "You gotta..." Remember BOB? What happened? They TRUSTED 1 person. and BAM. gone. ONE bright bold primary example amongst the millions of other examples that happen every day in eve. EVE is not a game that is designed for trust. It's very nature fosters the exact opposite. So don't give me this song and dance bull about trust. I'd trust a rabid bear looking to have me for lunch, sooner than I would trust any single one of you **ers, ever, in EVE (except Chribba, and I would keep an eye on him as well)! ------------------------------------------------ I got married Oct. 18th. I'm on my honeymoon. Yes I brought the laptop. Yes I am playing EVE. What?
Rewak	Posted - 2009.10.21 05:26:00 - [97] I've only read the 1st 2 pages so i might be off the current topic or just repeating. Why do people see this as a good thing? it forces people of of the npc corps to a PC one? these are people that want to be in a npc corp they prefer doing there own thing if they wanted to play with others they would be in a PC corp! is this really the kind of people you want? that will log in when they feel like it do there own thing rarely talk to you and quit the corp at the 1st sign of trouble? Or they will simply do what I'm going to do make a 1 man corp done, my play style wont change. if i do get war deced(does happen which is why I left my 1 man corp and went to a npc, no reason to keep it) ill just make another. got 3 accounts so that's 6 spare slots that can make a ceo so I can just hop corps at every war dec no problem. Your all fools that think the mission runners who all were in PC corps will magicaly join a PC corp and participate and build it. they wont they will just run their missions same as it ever was! In short if they wanted all this magical and great fun and uber befits of a PC corp they would be in one. No use trying to force them!
Ava Santiago Minmatar	Posted - 2009.10.21 05:36:00 - [98] Originally by: Washell Olivaw Originally by: Ava Santiago WoW provides an environment where trust is possible between individuals. Eve fails to provide an environment where you can trust anyone contacting you directly. Wrong way round: WoW is babyproofed, other than social engineering nothing can happen. Trust doesn't enter into it and is on the whole unneeded. EVE provides an open environment where trust and distrust are needed and healthy, allowing for more complex interactions between players. Eve does not provide an environment where trust is ever healthy. The only places where trust is possible in Eve are the places where the systems and structures you dismiss as babyproofed in WoW enable the game to function. The market interface is a fantastic example of a babyproofed system of exchange in Eve. Now imagine how Eve would work without it. Imagine if you had to exchange every good in a trade window in space. Now imagine the level of trade that would occur under such as system. Eve is babyproofed differently. The system is designed to enable piratical behavior and encourages theft in very specific circumstances. In other words, the pirates get the kid gloves. So when you are out in space blowing up some guy in a mining barge with your combat designed battleship... you can be thankful that the game designers have babyproofed that encounter to ensure your success. Now imagine if mining caused high bounty pirate ships to spawn - and that mining barges could destroy them easily without stopping their mining activity. Would we see the griefing of miners on the same scale if their ships had the hitpoints of a carrier and the damage ability of a battleship in addition to a mining ability? Eve is very good at enabling PvP pilots to think they are good players. The babyproofing inherent in PvP setups vs industrials or gangs vs solo flyers enables people to enter situations with 99% chances of success. When a side is able to plan in advance, choose targets with 99% chances of success and not encounter any significant loss if failure occurs... I can't see how that isn't easy mode. Eve is a fantastic math game - but if you can do the math, Eve is a lot easier than any other MMO on the market. If a 20% edge provides a 95% chance of victory - the encounter is babyproofed. The odds of a hostile encounter in which one party has less than 20% edge in Eve are minimal if the antagonist has the required math skills. 0.0 is slightly different of course - mainly because a 20% edge is usually achieved by generating enough lag to lock down the entire system server as you are bringing 2,000+ pilots. Concord doesn't provide consequences. Concord provides insurance payouts.
Ashina Sito Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.10.21 05:42:00 - [99] Originally by: Alexis Rakun ...To solve that, the function that manages what NPC corp you join when not in a PC corp should be biased. Not so that it shuts players out, but so the main core of players in an MPC corp, the one that reflects the corp best, remains and passes on vital information and training. Pre Apocrypha this was the case. CCP abandoned the directed NPC corp placement with a simple and easy fix for them, random placement. This one change has had far reaching effects on NPC corps. The quality of the community in CAS has suffered greatly. In fact this change is the one thing that has made more people want to leave CAS then the tax ever could. Getting stuck with a bunch of boneheads that would have been herded into FNA is painful. The true irony is that CCP just does not get the NPC corp communities and is trying to nurf them... after they already ***** smacked them with Apocrypha.
Hroya Gallente TerraNovae	Posted - 2009.10.21 05:45:00 - [100] Originally by: Lotus Sutra Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 21/10/2009 03:22:46 EVE fosters DISTRUST, not trust. The entire eve environment rotates around thievery, mayhem, victimization and griefing. Not trust. If you think your statement is true then how can i assume your following example is what really happened ? So media and propaganda is allways right because we never wonder about the things not being said.
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.10.21 05:47:00 - [101] Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 21/10/2009 05:48:44 Originally by: Hroya Originally by: Lotus Sutra Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 21/10/2009 03:22:46 EVE fosters DISTRUST, not trust. The entire eve environment rotates around thievery, mayhem, victimization and griefing. Not trust. If you think your statement is true then how can i assume your following example is what really happened ? So media and propaganda is allways right because we never wonder about the things not being said. You can't. But that being said in itself backs up my statement. Trusting someone in EVE is like believing in God, You can if you want to, but believing in it doesn't make it true. ------------------------------------------------ I got married Oct. 18th. I'm on my honeymoon. Yes I brought the laptop. Yes I am playing EVE. What?
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.10.21 05:48:00 - [102] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 21/10/2009 05:51:56 Quote: If they are stronger, you can stop playing or you can disband. Surely this is a major cause of the collapse of new/weak player Corps? I don't understand why anyone imagines they are "good for the game". Yet CCP have decided to use them as a means to influence my behavior, which makes them griefers too. Jesus this is just...wrong. I say this from experience. TEARS is not a PVP alliance. We generally have some PVP experience, and like to go pew things now and then...but we aren't nearly as experienced as most dedicated PVP groups, and we have a fair amount of inexperienced members. We can field PVP fleets, but generally they're unable to fight the battleship/T2 cruiser fleets fielded by most of our enemies. TEARS has received an absolute **ton of wardecs. Most of them were from relatively competent PVP corps that we either ed off through ninjasalvaging, or were hired by people who we *ed off...ninjasalvaging. As I type this, there are 106 CONCORD evemails in Alliancemail, and TERAS has existed for barely over one year. We've started a few wars, but I can count those on one hand; pretty much every war we've been in has been an offensive war against us. We've never surrendered. We've never stopped playing...and we certainly have never disbanded. We go about our activities like we always did. If the wardeccers are especially competent and know how to track and kill a target, then you change stations or move your activities a couple jumps away. However, this is very rarely necessary, since most wardeccing corps do little more than show up on your doorstep with a BS fleet. With instas, hisec protections, local, and a million different stations...the odds are heavily stacked in favor of the defender. If you exercise a minimum of caution and use your brain, you can weather the war declaration easily*.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.10.21 05:53:00 - [103] Quote: EVE fosters DISTRUST, not trust. You see, this is the attitude ingrained in people who value their imaginary possessions waaaay too much. If you do happen to screw up, what have you (in reality) lost? Nothing. If you look at it any other way than that, you need to take a big step back and relax for a while. A more accurate statement would be "EVE teaches you to become proficient at learning WHO you can trust, and how far". Yes, there are a lot of folks that will gleefully take advantage of the unwary, this occurs whether you are in an NPC corp or a player corp. In both you interact with all manner of scammers and thieves on a daily basis. However, if you take the time to learn which people out there you can depend on, things begin to change in a rather dramatic (and usually very profitable) way. Lets dispel another myth about most player corps while we are at it. Many people have the opinion that all player corps treat you like a slave, and have some mystic way of taking all of your stuff whenever they like. The truth is that the former is rarely the case (those corps tend to bleed members and die), and the later is a blatant lie. Not even the CEO of a player corp can touch your stuff unless you give it to him. And while yes, many corps ask for a certain level of participation in group events, in a good corp this is rarely mandatory. You will be asked if you can lend a hand... just as you can ask your corp mates to lend you a hand when you need it from time to time (and if you are in the middle of something else, it is usually understood). The nice thing is, if your corp mates are good natured about pitching in for corp related events, you usually benefit from it directly in the form of corp ships, equipment, advanced POS/Outpost facilities, freighter/jump freighter access... any number of things that are much more difficult to do or afford on your own. If you find yourself in a corp that doesn't do these things, simply start looking for one that does. It's not difficult. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Gsptlsnz	Posted - 2009.10.21 06:04:00 - [104] @ Kahega Amielden If they are strongER ... If you can handle every WarDec without shutting down then they weren't stronger. I'm sure everything you said was correct, and gz on being strong enough to take some heat. But I still believe that frivolous WarDecs destroy a lot of new or rookie Corps, and I see no upside to that.
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.10.21 06:05:00 - [105] Originally by: Ranger 1 Quote: EVE fosters DISTRUST, not trust. You see, this is the attitude ingrained in people who value their imaginary possessions waaaay too much. If you do happen to screw up, what have you (in reality) lost? Nothing. If you look at it any other way than that, you need to take a big step back and relax for a while. A more accurate statement would be "EVE teaches you to become proficient at learning WHO you can trust, and how far". Yes, there are a lot of folks that will gleefully take advantage of the unwary, this occurs whether you are in an NPC corp or a player corp. In both you interact with all manner of scammers and thieves on a daily basis. However, if you take the time to learn which people out there you can depend on, things begin to change in a rather dramatic (and usually very profitable) way. Lets dispel another myth about most player corps while we are at it. Many people have the opinion that all player corps treat you like a slave, and have some mystic way of taking all of your stuff whenever they like. The truth is that the former is rarely the case (those corps tend to bleed members and die), and the later is a blatant lie. Not even the CEO of a player corp can touch your stuff unless you give it to him. And while yes, many corps ask for a certain level of participation in group events, in a good corp this is rarely mandatory. You will be asked if you can lend a hand... just as you can ask your corp mates to lend you a hand when you need it from time to time (and if you are in the middle of something else, it is usually understood). The nice thing is, if your corp mates are good natured about pitching in for corp related events, you usually benefit from it directly in the form of corp ships, equipment, advanced POS/Outpost facilities, freighter/jump freighter access... any number of things that are much more difficult to do or afford on your own. If you find yourself in a corp that doesn't do these things, simply start looking for one that does. It's not difficult. Ahh but Ranger my friend, you are making an assumption that I don't pvp (your first statement about fearing to lose some pixels). I do. I love losing and causing others to lose their interwebs pixels. It's very fun. But.... I don't trust anybody in this game to be who they portray themselves to be. I wouldn't trust you at my back, even if you had sworn a blood oath to defend me to your death, and your every action in the game showed you to be a person that honored your oaths. This game does NOT foster trust. It's designed to foster the opposite. I've been playing for 2 years and nothing I have seen in that 2 years has even come close to making me consider changing that viewpoint. Been in Player corps (now each of my characters is in 1 man corps). Not a bad bunch of people overall. But again, I don't trust any of them. Not then, and not now. Not ever. You trust someone and you can bet somewhere, at sometime, in this game, if the advantage is in their favor, you will get the short end of the stick. That is a simple, basic fact of EVE and how it was designed to be. ------------------------------------------------ I got married Oct. 18th. I'm on my honeymoon. Yes I brought the laptop. Yes I am playing EVE. What?
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.10.21 06:12:00 - [106] Originally by: Lotus Sutra Edited by: Lotus Sutra on 21/10/2009 03:22:46 EVE fosters DISTRUST, not trust. The entire eve environment rotates around thievery, mayhem, victimization and griefing. Not trust. I will tell every one of you dumb bunnies screaming about "you gotta trust" "you gotta work together" "You gotta..." Remember BOB? What happened? They TRUSTED 1 person. and BAM. gone. ONE bright bold primary example amongst the millions of other examples that happen every day in eve. EVE is not a game that is designed for trust. It's very nature fosters the exact opposite. So don't give me this song and dance bulldroppings about trust. I'd trust a rabid bear looking to have me for lunch, sooner than I would trust any single one of you peeps, ever, in EVE (except Chribba, and I would keep an eye on him as well)! edit Trust is the main problem within EVE and why so many people refuse to leave NPC corps. They know damn well NOBODY in this game can be trusted. How long was that guy in BOB before he screwed them over and disbanded them? months? a year? years? Then in one moment. He turned on people that TRUSTED him, and destroyed an entire alliance. Just ONE example of the MILLIONS of examples that have happened and happen every day in eve. (yes I know I am repeating myself, too bad, deal with it, some things bear repeating) but you say, that is what makes EVE so great! Stuff like that can happen! but I say, that is why none of you people can be trusted. I can never know when you will turn on me. And that is why saying 'but you gotta trust' is pure unadulterated BS and you know it. I remember two long threads, one from several years ago, and one from one year ago, on the same topic. It was about pirate capers, attacks, and wins. The first thread was full of epic tales. High skilled players being defeated, industrialists caught off guard and ransomed, PWN fleets put in their place, etc. The second one was all about people befriending noobs, luring them into low sec, blowing up their ships, scramming their pods for a while and laughing at them, then podding them - sometimes after getting them to join a corp and stealing what little they had. Oh well.
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2009.10.21 06:14:00 - [107] Originally by: Ava Santiago The market interface is a fantastic example of a babyproofed system of exchange in Eve. Shuttles at 10 million ISK? Buy orders for ships at 1/10th of the actual value? Manipulation to get the average price down/up so people don't get the warning window? All you know is that you get an item for isk or vice versa, you'll have to trust you get a fair deal, unless you've done the research and the double checking. But I think we're using different definitions of trust here. You seem to think that trust is something enforced by the game so the other player can't screw you over. I think trust is a personal assesment by you of another player that he won't scew me over. WoW enforces everything, that leaves no room for trust as I see it, simply because it isn't needed. EVE allows everything, which makes trust important and valuable. The best EVE players aren't the mathematicians, it are those able to earn the trust of a large group of people. Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Dharh Gallente Ace Adventure Corp	Posted - 2009.10.21 06:16:00 - [108] I can't believe people are actually comparing EVE to WoW. Why do you people even play EVE if you think you can't trust anyone in it? I never trusted anyone in WoW anymore than I ever have trusted anyone in EVE. The illusion of 'safeguards' in WoW are sad. You can still get scammed in WoW, just the same way you can get scammed in EVE. By being an idiot and handing your stuff over to someone you barely know.
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.10.21 06:18:00 - [109] Originally by: Dharh I can't believe people are actually comparing EVE to WoW. Why do you people even play EVE if you think you can't trust anyone in it? I never trusted anyone in WoW anymore than I ever have trusted anyone in EVE. The illusion of 'safeguards' in WoW are sad. You can still get scammed in WoW, just the same way you can get scammed in EVE. By being an idiot and handing your stuff over to someone you barely know. I play EVE because I enjoy doing so. Trust has nothing to do with that enjoyment, and no place in EVE. ------------------------------------------------ I got married Oct. 18th. I'm on my honeymoon. Yes I brought the laptop. Yes I am playing EVE. What?
Dharh Gallente Ace Adventure Corp	Posted - 2009.10.21 06:47:00 - [110] Originally by: Lotus Sutra Originally by: Dharh I can't believe people are actually comparing EVE to WoW. Why do you people even play EVE if you think you can't trust anyone in it? I never trusted anyone in WoW anymore than I ever have trusted anyone in EVE. The illusion of 'safeguards' in WoW are sad. You can still get scammed in WoW, just the same way you can get scammed in EVE. By being an idiot and handing your stuff over to someone you barely know. I play EVE because I enjoy doing so. Trust has nothing to do with that enjoyment, and no place in EVE. If you do corp PVP yeah trust is in there somewhere. The game is a sandbox. Some people like playing militia, trusting your fellow mates in a battle. Some play the solo missioner. Some the solo griefer. Others the solo PVPer. All have a place in EVE.
Lotus Sutra Caldari Sutra Inc	Posted - 2009.10.21 06:52:00 - [111] Originally by: Dharh Originally by: Lotus Sutra Originally by: Dharh I can't believe people are actually comparing EVE to WoW. Why do you people even play EVE if you think you can't trust anyone in it? I never trusted anyone in WoW anymore than I ever have trusted anyone in EVE. The illusion of 'safeguards' in WoW are sad. You can still get scammed in WoW, just the same way you can get scammed in EVE. By being an idiot and handing your stuff over to someone you barely know. I play EVE because I enjoy doing so. Trust has nothing to do with that enjoyment, and no place in EVE. If you do corp PVP yeah trust is in there somewhere. The game is a sandbox. Some people like playing militia, trusting your fellow mates in a battle. Some play the solo missioner. Some the solo griefer. Others the solo PVPer. All have a place in EVE. As I don't trust people in EVE, even though I have been in a large player corp on another character (didn't trust any of them either), that would put me in the place of the SOLO player category I guess. We all belong in the sandbox just as long as some dang cat doesn't come along and use it as it's litterbox ! ------------------------------------------------ I got married Oct. 18th. I'm on my honeymoon. Yes I brought the laptop. Yes I am playing EVE. What?
Myra2007 Shafrak Industries	Posted - 2009.10.21 06:59:00 - [112] 8/10 tbh The teamwork on this was p. good and it worked although it was recycled from last week or so. Not too shabby... -- Originally by: Professor Slocombe I will only buy tickets if the prize is your stuff and you leave Eve. Forever. You irritating self obsessed cretin.
Sietch	Posted - 2009.10.21 07:10:00 - [113] I am a casual solo PVE player. I don't understand why CCP wants to discourage my play style, but I am not going to change it. I will try to avoid this stupid tax creating a one-man corp, and jumping from one corp to other to avoid war decs. Anyway, if I can't avoid taxes, and I can't avoid PvP, I will simply quit and look for another game. Regards
Zey Nadar Gallente The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.21 07:22:00 - [114] Originally by: Washell Olivaw That said, this change is not implemented to ôdestroyö NPC corps, they should be considered a small motivation to join a player corporation, where you can develop and flourish as a player. Lol.
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2009.10.21 07:30:00 - [115] Originally by: Zey Nadar That said, this change is not implemented to ôdestroyö NPC corps, they should be considered a small motivation to join a player corporation, where you can develop and flourish as a player. For the record: that was CCP Soundwave in this devblog Originally by: Signature Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.10.21 07:37:00 - [116] Originally by: Ava Santiago To put it bluntly - the average Eve player lacks the social skills needed to play a complex game like WoW - and WoW provides an environment where trust is possible between individuals. Eve fails to provide an environment where you can trust anyone contacting you directly. Oh jesus god you couldn't be wronger if you had made your post with an electrified wronging machine. EvE is all about trust. Trust, not spice, is the most precious commodity in the EvE universe. You apparently dont understand this, which is why you fail.
Xetal Maelstrom	Posted - 2009.10.21 07:46:00 - [117] Tax should be 10% for the first month your character exists and 20% after that... and if you leave a corp then you should be a viable target to anyone who was at war with that corp for a period of 7 days. On the flip side, suicide ganking should not be allowed on trial accounts (no attacking in .5+ sec), and if CONCORD blows you up then you should not receive insurance.
Gefex Genco Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.21 08:02:00 - [118] Originally by: Alexis Rakun From Warshels post I see what CCP are on about now As for Tippia, the thing is that start-up PCs just find themselves wardecced 24/7 meaning they can't run the missions to make the money to become a decent PC corp, which is why ppl stay in NPC corps. But enough of that, I said it in my first post. The point is, if more people don't want to stay in NPC corps, then there is a bigger pool of players for startup's to recruit from. More PC corps = more player interaction, which creates content for the game. Rather than thousands of zombie like mission runners isolating themselves. Its not about PvP although that should be an added side effect. If you want to isolate yourself and run missions you still can, its just you will be on an even playing field with those who choose not to.
Tippia Raddick Explorations Controlled Chaos	Posted - 2009.10.21 08:46:00 - [119] Originally by: Sietch Anyway, if I can't avoid taxes, and I can't avoid PvP, I will simply quit and look for another game. Hate to break it to you: you're already incapable of escaping both. You've always been, and you always will be. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Nyxster	Posted - 2009.10.21 08:58:00 - [120] Heres a Plan, Create a 1 Man corp, Corp A: set tax rate to zero. Create a 1 Man corp for your alt, Corp B: set tax rate to zero. Make sure both members have jumpclones at opposite ends of the galaxy. Corp A gets wardecced, get yourself camped then JC across the galaxy.watch as lazy highsec corp can't be bothered to go 40 jumps to camp you again, just for 24 hours before you JC back again, log on to alt. If Corp B gets wardecced, repeat above. Odds of both corps getting decced at the same time,and both sets of deccers being prepared to do 40+ jump roundtrips to camp 1 person? slim to none. Profit?

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