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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.02 17:07:00 -
[1]
Edited by: NightmareX on 02/05/2010 17:18:44 Like Goum said, the DPS is not everything in fleets. Those who thinks DPS is everything is basicly a noob when it's about PVP and fleet fights.
Peoples today looks at EFT and looks at how much DPS each ships does. And then goes omg, the Rokh / Tempest sucks donkey balls because the DPS on them sucks compared to other ships.
But i'm sorry to tell you this, but EHP and speed and how agile your ship is is very important in fleet fights to.
Why do you think i choose a Tempest over a Maelstrom in those big fleet fights we have?. It's because it's way faster and quite alot more agile than the Maelstrom. Yes my Tempest is shield tanked. So it's not getting slow because of armor plates and that.
The Maelstrom with the setup we use here only have 8-9k more EHP and 500-600 more Alpha than the Tempest. But those extra 8-9k EHP abd 500-600 more alpha is not worth it over how much faster and how much more agile the Tempest is over the Maelstrom.
Once you get bubbled, then you need to get out of those bubbles rather quickly if you want to survive.
The Tempest also do more DPS than the Maelstrom inside 84 km. Because the Tempest with 6 guns with the skills at level 5 included is the same as 7.5 guns, while the Maelstrom have 8 guns. But the reason the Tempest do more DPS inside 84 km is because it can fit 2x HML's to.
So i'll say NOT SUPPORTED.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.02 17:49:00 -
[2]
Edited by: NightmareX on 02/05/2010 17:50:38
Originally by: Ogogov ALL the fleet fights I've ever participated in have had the bubble usually collapse before my client has registered its even there due to lag.
Also LOL for fitting HML in a fleet :p
To the first thing. Well, i haven't had any problems to load grid even in those big fleet fights we have. Yes it takes a little time to load the grid. But once your in the grid and fighting, then it can be good to have a fast and agile ship if YOU get bubbled.
And to the last thing. What would you fit on a Sniper fitted Tempest instead then when you have exactly 624,75 powergrid left if you take the 2x HML's away from my Tempest. Would you fit a LRAR / LST instead that would be used maybe 2% out of the 100% your in a fight instead of using the HML's that can be used like 50% out of 100% in a fight?, since you can hit smaller targets like dictors and frigs and those kind of ships.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.02 18:36:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Naomi Knight
Originally by: Gwydion Telcontar Supported because NightmareX is a moron.
totally agree
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1311336&page=1#11
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.04 12:40:00 -
[4]
Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2010 12:41:26
Originally by: Amongrimm i miss the "omg that megathron is approaching me!"-moments...
Sorry to say it, but that time is over long time ago.
You wont see a Blaster Mega like that again.
The reason for it is the few HP boosts that CCP have done.
But still, i can still feel a little like that when i'm facing a Neutron Mega in my Dual 650mm Tempest. So it's still scary in that way.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.04 15:41:00 -
[5]
Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2010 15:42:06
Originally by: Amongrimm
Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 04/05/2010 12:41:26
Originally by: Amongrimm i miss the "omg that megathron is approaching me!"-moments...
Sorry to say it, but that time is over long time ago.
You wont see a Blaster Mega like that again.
The reason for it is the few HP boosts that CCP have done.
[...]
sure a neutron mega isn't that funny sitting next to u and firing away, but not much scarier than an abaddon or a raven (examples) which both have that bbq-sphere of the mega but bigger ones^^ I just think mega and other blaster platforms should be much more of a threat when in optimal than other mid range ships.
Well, when we are talking Mega vs Tempest here, then in fact the Mega is 5 times more scary than the Abaddon is to my Tempest, simply because the EM and the Thermal resists on the Tempest is quite high and the Abaddon doesn't do much damage to me then. It's the same with other ships that takes EM and Thermal damages.
This is tested many times. I'm not even scared to 2x Raven's that shoot EM torps, because last time that happened, i tanked both of them, since my EM resist is pretty high, so i tanked them with 1x LAR II.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.06 10:45:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Naomi Knight It is much easier to boost hybrids then cut back those ships which become ops(note that ccp didnt do this to laser/projectile ships which are op atm). Currently 90% of hybrid ships are lacking efficiency and half of them are completly useless.
If ccp fix them one by one it is fine with me ,but I cant see how that would happen ,if I look at how they balanced in the past.
Awww boohoo, maybe you should find an effective way to use the ships with Hybrid guns then maybe?.
It's not all about DPS dude.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.06 11:35:00 -
[7]
Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2010 11:35:42
Originally by: Cyan Cure
Originally by: NightmareX
Originally by: Naomi Knight It is much easier to boost hybrids then cut back those ships which become ops(note that ccp didnt do this to laser/projectile ships which are op atm). Currently 90% of hybrid ships are lacking efficiency and half of them are completly useless.
If ccp fix them one by one it is fine with me ,but I cant see how that would happen ,if I look at how they balanced in the past.
Awww boohoo, maybe you should find an effective way to use the ships with Hybrid guns then maybe?.
It's not all about DPS dude.
Well, i can argue with you here, blasters are all about DPS. But since i'm really bored i'll add this, log into EVE and play it a bit, for once. Really, buy a ship, like a Cruiser (i'd prefer if it was fitted with blasters, but ev'rything will do in your case, just leave your 50 friends and an FC behind), go for a roam. I mean undock, set your autopilot to 0.4-0.0, set Security Pentalty to 100, throw a dart on the map and go.
If you do that, i'll proudly become the first person on the Eve-Online forums that will actually care about what you have to say.
Well i can agree that Blasters is mostly about DPS. But Blasters already have quite alot of DPS. So it's fine as it is.
But i was more thinking on Railguns that the DPS isn't all there. Because if DPS have been all in fleet fights, then my 1400mm Tempest would suck badly. But it doesn't. The Tempest is pretty nice in fleet fights.
And Rokh and Mega with Railguns works good in their ways to.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.06 15:11:00 -
[8]
Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2010 15:17:09
Originally by: Cyan Cure
Originally by: NightmareX
Originally by: Cyan Cure stuff
Well i can agree that Blasters is mostly about DPS. But Blasters already have quite alot of DPS. So it's fine as it is.
But i was more thinking on Railguns that the DPS isn't all there. Because if DPS have been all in fleet fights, then my 1400mm Tempest would suck badly. But it doesn't. The Tempest is pretty nice in fleet fights.
And Rokh and Mega with Railguns works good in their ways to.
I'm impressed. Restraint, not feeding the troll. Anyways, what you have said is the problem we have here. You and Goumindong (he never touched a blaster in his life, so i'm more than happy to ignore whatever he has to say) only think in 0.0 fleet battle terms, not what happens on the daily basis to people using blasters in their T1 frigates, cruisers and battlecruisers. Right now flying blaster boats consists of (hopefully) ramming your target and trying not to overshoot, overloading ev'rything and trying to kill your target before it moves too far away.
Not trying to sound like an elitist PvPer here, but most of the time all it takes is to click to the right or left as the opponent and you start the fight at 10km, blasters don't do nearly enough damage even if you'll manage to get into range to make up for that.
IMHO what is needed here is redution of mass to some blaster boats, or 'least try it out on Sisi. Again, i'm not an expert on ship balance, but it doesn't seem reasonable that ship with lowest range are also one of the slowest.
To the first thing. Yes, Blasters is very close range weapons, and you just have to live with it. It's how they work. It's like we who use AutoCannons are in 80% of all times in falloff range and have to live with way lower DPS than the EFT shows they have.
Simply because when you goes into falloff, you lose DPS. And even then, it's working pretty good that way for AutoCannons.
It's just the way how you use the ships with AutoCannons.
But to the Blasters again. They do poor damage at more ranges, but the thing is to get inside optimal on your guns fastest possible. Once that happens, you can do insane amount of DPS. Ofc, if you decide to move 15 km to get inside optimal on your Blasters on the target, then it can hurt a bit if you get shoot before you are in optimal.
But in most cases, the DPS the Blasters have does so much DPS that they do so much damage that they can manage to kill the target before you die then. Even if you had to move 15 km
So it's all about taking risks. Like an Abaddon pilot is doing against an AC Tempest with dual Heavy Neuts orbitin the Abaddon at 1 km. Because the Abaddon wont hit that Tempest any good and the Tempest will tank the Abaddon because if the Tempest is fitted right, it will have a bit high EM and Thermal resists.
Or like having a Neutron Mega inside 5 km on your Tempest. That's not fun i can tell you.
So it's not only Blaster pilots who have to take risks to get something killed.
And no, lowering the Mass on some Blaster boats is not the right way to go.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.06 16:14:00 -
[9]
Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2010 16:16:12
Originally by: X Gallentius Supported. Tracking speed should be inversely proportional to intended effective range of turret.
Other hybrid disadvantages compared to autocannons in small gang/solo warfare. 1. Can't switch damage types. Hybrids are useless against T2 Caldari/Gallente hulls, but projectiles are effective against all T2 ships since they can switch to damage resistance hole. 2. Hybrids use cap. Energy nuetralizer means game over for any Gallente blaster boat. Auto cannons will still deal damage.
This is a good example on someone who doesn't understand the advantages and downsides every of the weapon types have and then don't understands the balance between them.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.06 17:03:00 -
[10]
Originally by: X Gallentius What exactly is the downside of an auto-cannon compared to a blaster again?
Fighting in falloff and lose quite alot of DPS?. And on top of it doesn't have quite alot of DPS to begin with.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.06 17:16:00 -
[11]
Originally by: X Gallentius Fighting in falloff is an advantage since the blaster can't hit it. Surely there must be some other reason.
Yeah, and then the Blaster Mega have the advantage again that if he scramble your Tempest and web you and keeps you in his optimal once he's there, then the Blaster pilot have a big advantage to, right?.
Each weapon types have advantages over other weapon types that is weak in something, like Autocannons can keep hitting in deep falloff while the Blasters can't really hit you. But if you look the other way. If the Blaster Mega can keep you scrambled and webbed inside 5 km, your in trouble.
See where i'm going?.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.06 17:29:00 -
[12]
Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2010 17:36:05
Originally by: Bagehi Except that requires the use of two mid-slots, and assumes the minmatar ship doesn't also have scram+web, and requires the gallente ship to magically be fast enough to catch the minmatar ship and keep it within range.
Lets take the Blaster Mega vs the AC Tempest here again.
A smart Blaster Mega pilot fit Warp Scramblers instead of Warp Disruptors.
But a Tempest pilot doesn't fit a Scrambler, but a Disruptor.
So what does this ends up with?, yes, the Blaster Mega can keep you scrambled (keep your MWD disabled) while the Tempest only have the Mega disrupted. So it means that the Tempest can't use the MWD to get out. But the Blaster Mega can use the MWD to get back into optimal of the Tempest if he wants. So it means that the Tempest is dead meat if that happens.
So it's all about not being inside web / scram range of the Mega in a Tempest. And that's gonna be as much of an issue as a Mega have to get into web / scram range to the Tempest.
Ofc, if you jump into a system and lands 20 km from a Mega, it shouldn't be an issue for the Tempest. But if a Mega warps right on top of your ass, you might be in trouble if your in a Tempest and gets scrambled and webbed by that Mega.
Do you understand now what i'm trying to tell here?.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.06 18:29:00 -
[13]
Originally by: X Gallentius
Originally by: NightmareX
Originally by: X Gallentius Fighting in falloff is an advantage since the blaster can't hit it. Surely there must be some other reason.
Yeah, and then the Blaster Mega have the advantage again that if he scramble your Tempest and web you and keeps you in his optimal once he's there, then the Blaster pilot have a big advantage to, right?.
I'm coming at if from a smaller ship perspective where time to get out of web/scram range is much less. In vast majority of the cases, the auto-cannon fitted ship will get outside web/scram range and then kite the blaster fitted ship to its death (The Minmatar ship is faster, has as many if not more mid slots for webs/scrams, etc..).
I see what you mean, but that's Minmatars job to kite.
Amarr's job is to keep range. While Gallente's job is to get closest possible fastest possible. And Caldaris job is to just shoot whatever tharget that is from 0 km to 35-40 km and hope the targets is not dead before the torps hit for example.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.06 18:39:00 -
[14]
Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2010 18:45:33 Liberal Sparrow, it was an example to show why Blasters are fine and why Autocannons are fine in their way.
And those things with Blasters and Autocannons will still be valid if we are talking 5 vs 5 or 20 vs 20.
You still have to get close to your targets in your Mega's fastest possible while the Tempest have to kite other ships that it should avoid to get to close to. But still be within RR range to the others in your gang as much as you can.
EDIT: You said that Blasters just have a little more DPS than other weapon types. On paper yes, but try to include resists into it all and don't just look at the EFT DPS, and you will see that a 2x damage mod Neutron Mega does like 5-6% more DPS than a 3x damage mod Abaddon after resists if the Abaddon use 7x Pulses and one RR.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.06 19:04:00 -
[15]
Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2010 19:05:52 Bagehi, don't be stupid. Do you know the reason why Tempest pilots doesn't fit a Scrambler?, because most of the time, you have to keep distance. And with distance, you can't keep the targets scrambled. And if you can't keep them scrambled then, they just warps away then.
And if you have to get close to an Abaddon or Geddon, it doesn't matter if you have scrambler or a disruptor fitted then, because they aren't going anywhere as long they don't fit scramblers then. But what is the odds to find an Abaddon or Geddon with Warp Scrambler fitted?. Tiny i will say.
Yeah the Tempest will most likely have dual Heavy Neuts fitted, but what does that really means to a gang that is full of passive tanked ships that just gets repped by others in your gang?.
It doesn't helps that much there.
Yes against an active tanked ship or smaller targets, the dual Heavy Neuts will help ALOT against that in most cases.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.06 19:38:00 -
[16]
Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2010 19:41:35
Originally by: X Gallentius
Originally by: NightmareX
I see what you mean, but that's Minmatars job to kite.
Amarr's job is to always keep range. While Gallente's job is always to get closest possible fastest possible. And Caldari's job with Missiles is something totally different again than the other 3 races have.
Blasters cannot do their job even if they get closest as fast as possible because they can't apply enough effective damage when at optimal because tracking sucks at very close range. Therefore better tracking proposed. QED.
If you just sit still and just shoots, then yeah, i see what you mean. But at least use your brain and move around to try and get the transversal down as much as you can.
Trust me, it helps alot to move around as much as you can.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.06 21:33:00 -
[17]
Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2010 21:37:35
Originally by: X Gallentius Offhand...
Light Nuetron Blaster II: 0.3165 rad/sec Heavy Nuetron Blaster II: 0.1 rad/sec
Light 200mm Autocannon II: 0.315 rad/sec Heavy 425mm Autocannon II: 0.1056 rad/sec
Functionally the same tracking. Done with your trolling.
Is this a way to show that you don't know much about how the weapons works at all?
Oh, and there isn't anything called: Heavy 425mm Autocannon II or Light 200mm Autocannon II FYI.
Sorry to say it, but i have a bad feeling that there are many players here that screams boost Blasters without even understanding how Blasters, Autocannons, Pulses or Torps works at all.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.06 21:48:00 -
[18]
Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2010 21:48:15
Originally by: X Gallentius The numbers are accurate even if the name is wrong; you agree?
Now, look at the optimal range of the Blasters, and then look at the optimal of the Autocannons.
Is that a good enough hint for you to realize that the ranges have alot to say on how your tracking is?.
Like 800mm AC gun with EMP L. It have 3 km optimal with 0.054 tracking, while Neutron Blaster Cannon II have 4.5 km optimal range and 0.05412 tracking.
When the 800mm AC guns gets to 4.5 km where the Neutron Blasters have their optimal, then the Neutron Blaster Cannon II have more tracking than the 800mm AC gun, since the 800mm AC guns are then in falloff. And falloff reduces your hit chance.
And then look at Mega Pulse Laser II. It have 15 km optimal range and 0.04219 tracking. Guess what?. At 15 km, the Mega Pulse Laser II have waaaaay way more tracking than 800mm AC guns would ever dream of at 15 km.
And this is somerhing you didn't understand?.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.06 21:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Goumindong Hit chance, not tracking. Different things.
Yeah, i fixed it in my post.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.06 22:13:00 -
[20]
Edited by: NightmareX on 06/05/2010 22:16:17
Originally by: The Djego I guess it is to much to ask for Goum and NMX free blaster threads, is it?
When someone just screams BOOST BLASTERS in here and then right after that just shows that they don't have a single clue on how those weapons works or other weapons works. Then yeah, someone have to protest.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.06 23:18:00 -
[21]
Ephemeron.
Back in the days when the Mega was the king of close range PVP, as you say. It's true. But, 3-4 years ago isn't today.
Ships back then wasn't as much balanced as they are today.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.07 08:46:00 -
[22]
Edited by: NightmareX on 07/05/2010 08:54:24
Originally by: Cyan Cure Edited by: Cyan Cure on 07/05/2010 07:34:53
Originally by: Bagehi Blasters are the shortest ranged weapons on the slowest ships. ACs are on the fastest ships and have longer range. Pulse have fairly insane range and only a slight decrease in damage compared to blasters and AC on ships that are faster and have more armor than blaster boats. Please explain how this is balanced.
Someone actually understood what i said. The problem with Blasters lies in the speed to fire range ratio, not in EFT numbers.
I'm but a humble alt, but can we PLEASE just ignore NightmareX and Goumindong from now on, i mean the first one only has a bare minimum of knowledge to fly her Tempest in 0.0 BS fleets and the other only flies Amarr in gangs. I'm here, cause i'd like to read about good ideas for fixing Blaster problerms we could present to the CSM and all i can find is this impotent EFT bullsh*t and really weak theorycrafting. It makes me want to slit my wrists.
As long you can't counter attack or just counter on what i have said earlier, then you can't say that you all can ignore me or Goum, because what we have said it the fact.
And it's absolutely a fact if no one can counter argument it to not be true.
And also, it doesn't take long time to fully understand how all of the weapons work ingame. And not only that, but when it's about Blasters, then i know what i'm talking about. Because when you have used Blasters and the other weapon types on Sisi for about 4-5 years, then i think i know how they work.
And you also say that i have minimum of knowledge to fly a Tempest. LOL, is that a joke or?.
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NightmareX
Dark-Rising IT Alliance
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Posted - 2010.05.13 15:20:00 -
[23]
Edited by: NightmareX on 13/05/2010 15:20:18
Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 13/05/2010 11:06:39 Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 13/05/2010 11:06:14
Quote: Hybrids in general cannot have more tracking
YOu are horribly wrong. Blaster tracking SUCKS. It needs to double to make them effective. It is embarrassing, because when you get to your optimal you cannot hit anything, due to trasversal, so you have to operate in faloff, which reduces your damage.
ROFL, talk about being a total noob with Blasters.
You know there is something called to move around while you fight to lower your transersal right?.
If you just sits there and just shoot, you deserve to die in a big ass fire to stupidity.
And if you double the Blaster tracking, then what is the point with the web nerf earlier?.
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NightmareX
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2010.10.05 01:30:00 -
[24]
Edited by: NightmareX on 05/10/2010 01:34:15
Originally by: Ryan Starwing I say buff blaster dps by like 20% and tracking by like 5-10%.
PS:Bump
20% more DPS?, o.O, jesus freaking christ man, are you thinking before you make ******ed ideas lol?
Do you know how crazy the Vindicator is going to be then? Yeah, you have to take the Vindicator into the picture here to.
I know Vindicators like to om nom nom Ravens VERY fast today, but taking 100% of the Raven's shield in 2 volleys is way to much tbh.
Like i have said earlier, a 5% DPS increase and like 10% tracking increase should be a good start.
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NightmareX
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2010.10.05 11:32:00 -
[25]
Edited by: NightmareX on 05/10/2010 11:33:49
Originally by: Fettered Soul
Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 05/10/2010 01:34:15
Originally by: Ryan Starwing I say buff blaster dps by like 20% and tracking by like 5-10%.
PS:Bump
20% more DPS?, o.O, jesus freaking christ man, are you thinking before you make ******ed ideas lol?
Do you know how crazy the Vindicator is going to be then? Yeah, you have to take the Vindicator into the picture here to.
I know Vindicators like to om nom nom Ravens VERY fast today, but taking 100% of the Raven's shield in 2 volleys is way to much tbh.
Like i have said earlier, a 5% DPS increase and like 10% tracking increase should be a good start.
First, tell me why 800mil ship should not kill 70mil ship "nom nom VERY fast"? Second, Nightmare can do 80% Vindicator's damage at 300% range. Third, Vindicator's bonus was changed from 25% to 37.5% after people complains. So, Vindicator is just the one fine tuned hybrid weapon ship. Why it is so good in damage? Because it has good dps with OLD GOOD WEBIFIER (10% velocity factor per level).
P.S. Usual gallente ship is much worse. They do not have 37.5% damage bonus and bonused web (ridiculous tracking considering range)
Uhm, i own a Vindicator my self and i have seen what the Vindi can do in damage dealing.
I know the Vindicator is supposed to take quite alot of DPS, but my Vindicator are already doing 1450 DPS. And with a 20% DPS boost, my Vindicator will do 1800 DPS with a cheap faction setup.
Do you know how freaking overpowered a 300k+ EHP and with around 2500 DPS after the 20% DPS boost the Vindicator is going to be even for a price of 800 mill isk?
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NightmareX
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers The 0rphanage
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Posted - 2010.10.09 20:46:00 -
[26]
Originally by: The Djego It is in general a good idea to ignore people that try to argument about her slaved multi billion ISK BS as baseline(that also got fixed webs instead the 60% fail most people are supposed to work with) while totally ignoring the shortcoming of all more common T1 and T2 hulls.
Btw NMX I can do 1.45k DPS(before heat) in my affordable mega(that I don't fly anymore), that doesn't make it a good solo gank ship or a passable small gang ship in low sec most of the time since you can't put this DPS well on the targets and it is terrible at catching stuff.
But how much tank do you have on the Mega then?
I think it have a very poor tank.
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