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Charles Swann	Posted - 2009.10.26 09:47:00 - [31] Originally by: Signore Kaeota Originally by: Charles Swann paranoia Do you honestly think that there's any new ideas out there to steal? If you had bothered to think about it, a really new idea would be the only case in which the auditor misusing his info would become obvious - so, no I don't think there are many new ideas out there (and we certainly don't see a lot of new ideas in MD). But even the not so new ideas have to be researched before basing a business on them (that's a fairly large cost you have to pay upfront without knowing if your numbers will show you that the business is profitable or not) - and the auditor saves on this part. He does not have to do expensive (in terms of time) research, he does not have to embark on risky business - because he already knows what works and what doesn't (and has the recent data to back this up). You could even go as far, as to suggest that the extremely low payment for audits (what does VV charge? 7m/hour?) only makes sense (provides an adequate compensation for the auditor's work), if you factor in the occuring theft of business details.
Signore Kaeota Caldari Caelum Incognitum	Posted - 2009.10.26 09:52:00 - [32] Originally by: Charles Swann Originally by: Signore Kaeota Originally by: Charles Swann paranoia Do you honestly think that there's any new ideas out there to steal? If you had bothered to think about it, a really new idea would be the only case in which the auditor misusing his info would become obvious - so, no I don't think there are many new ideas out there (and we certainly don't see a lot of new ideas in MD). But even the not so new ideas have to be researched before basing a business on them (that's a fairly large cost you have to pay upfront without knowing if your numbers will show you that the business is profitable or not) - and the auditor saves on this part. He does not have to do expensive (in terms of time) research, he does not have to embark on risky business - because he already knows what works and what doesn't (and has the recent data to back this up). You could even go as far, as to suggest that the extremely low payment for audits (what does VV charge? 7m/hour?) only makes sense (provides an adequate compensation for the auditor's work), if you factor in the occuring theft of business details. Could also be that they think of more than just isk? -_-_-_- I, Signore Kaeota, hereby apologise for any and all offence caused by the contents of this above post, and all others that I have written, or otherwise been responsible for. -_-_-_
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2009.10.26 10:08:00 - [33] Originally by: Charles Swann Originally by: flakeys I agree that only an audit would not be enough hence why i linked bopth audit and collateral.What i mostly hate about this and other offers in the same way is peron Y saying:'give me your isk since i have never asked a loan you just will have to trust me'.But when someone mentions an audit wich is VERRY smaller in risk then handing over 25bille they say' ooww but i dunno if i can trust the auditor enough'. A clever auditor misusing the info will never be found out - a scammer running off with the money will most often be recognized as such. How are you going to notice that the new competitor who appears 3 weeks into your bond is an alt of your auditor? How is anyone going to notice? You have one business plan you work with, the auditors has dozens of 'stolen' business plans in his desk to pick from - if he doesn't overuse one particular plan, but does cycle through them always keeping each individual business as small as possible, he will stay very low-profile and nevertheless make a nice buck from your ideas. Then don't ask for pulic trust if you can not trust one single person.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.26 12:51:00 - [34] Quote: How are you going to notice that the new competitor who appears 3 weeks into your bond is an alt of your auditor? Either - your business is so plain that entering 3 weeks into it won't have noticeable impact. And anyone could "get" it without a need to steal the idea off yours. - it's precise, pin pointed, situational. Then it's also time critical, and entering 3 weeks late is pointless. To succesfully steal off you the stealer would need to get in your super duper plan in time to reap the benefits, not after the cows left the corral. Quote: You could even go as far, as to suggest that the extremely low payment for audits (what does VV charge? 7m/hour?) only makes sense (provides an adequate compensation for the auditor's work), if you factor in the occuring theft of business details. Let's do this: I submit myself to an audit to prove I am not stealing anything off anyone but YOU also submit yourself to a full audit and have posted the findings, performance and so on. Deal? Also: when I suggest a guy how to fit their POS for basic anti-gank, when I tell them how to avoid being ganked (ie low sec, hi sec suicide ganking, wrong fittings...) I am actually being STOLEN of my PvP knowledge off the clients! Gotta sue those guys. Quote: Then don't ask for pulic trust if you can not trust one single person. Quoted for holy truth. How comes that everyone and their dog feel entitled to ask 10-20-25B in their first forum post but then when it's the time to show the meat, they hide with 1000 excuses? THEY are the ones asking for Investors' money. Not the investors. Not the auditors. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Charles Swann	Posted - 2009.10.26 15:53:00 - [35] Originally by: Vaerah Vahrokha Quote: You could even go as far, as to suggest that the extremely low payment for audits (what does VV charge? 7m/hour?) only makes sense (provides an adequate compensation for the auditor's work), if you factor in the occuring theft of business details. Let's do this: I submit myself to an audit to prove I am not stealing anything off anyone but YOU also submit yourself to a full audit and have posted the findings, performance and so on. Sorry, but I cannot remember that I've been asking for money and/or have made any statements that could be substantiated by an audit of my accounts - why should I take the risk of some auditor misusing my super-secret bizniz details? (you or some auditor can have my limited API - but I don't think you would learn anything from it that you don't already know). My point is fairly simple: it's stupid to trust auditors (or anyone else ingame) - the decision to get an audit should not be the "default" option for persons asking for public funding, but the result of a conscious risk-vs-reward comparison and there are valid reasons not to get audited. On the oother hand there are valid reasons not to invest in unaudited business ventures . I just cannot stand people running around and claiming that the risk involved with getting audited is zero (using arguments that resemble the whole "if ricdic had wanted to scam, he would have done so when ebank was still below 1T" talk. Life doesn't work this way: just because you have not scammed 40B when you had the chance to do so, does not mean you won't scam 4B the week afterwards when nobody looks)
Roman tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.10.26 16:03:00 - [36] Afternoon all. So it looks like peoples opinions with regards to how "safe" audits are, are somewhat split, from what i can gather split between people who actually understand the process, and the risks involved, and split between the people that just 'believe' an audit is kinda just a "standard thing you do". I dont mind a bit of discussion, maybe this thread has opened up a few issues which needed to be addressed elsewhere though. Thank you for your input, the investment opportunity still stands in its current format. I have had some interesting ingame chats, and some tentative interest. So please contact me ingame should you need to discuss it.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Dark-Rising IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.10.26 16:17:00 - [37] Quote: My point is fairly simple: it's stupid to trust auditors (or anyone else ingame) - the decision to get an audit should not be the "default" option for persons asking for public funding, but the result of a conscious risk-vs-reward comparison and there are valid reasons not to get audited Like others, you conveniently put the investee interest in your focus. Unfortunately for you, Investors are The Center. Investors have every reason to want to know all the details they need to make an informed decision. An audit is one of several tools that can be used to gather more information for them. In an ideal world where there are no dumb investors accepting unneeded risks, if you don't like to provide the information the Investors want, you can go ask money somewhere else. The burden of the proof is upon YOU. Quote: So it looks like peoples opinions with regards to how "safe" audits are, are somewhat split, from what i can gather split between people who actually understand the process, and the risks involved, and split between the people that just 'believe' an audit is kinda just a "standard thing you do". It's not a standard. It's something an investor should always demand though, because investors can only benefit by knowing more than not. It's also a fishy person detector, because I have yet to find someone with nothing to hide to refuse being audited by one of the auditors (it's not credible that ALL of the auditors are not "compatible" with a guy who asks for money). - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Cista2 Jita Direct Sale	Posted - 2009.10.26 16:35:00 - [38] Roman, if you say "Thank you for your input" again I am going to puke in my soup. Regardless of all this discussion of trust and thrust, I would be very interested in hearing how one creates an increased market demand for something like a Scimitar. I can understand how you can increase the price for the Scimitar - by buying out other sellers - but I would die to know how you can manipulate the actual demand. readies note paper
flakeys DRAMA Inc	Posted - 2009.10.26 16:38:00 - [39] Originally by: Roman Afternoon all. So it looks like peoples opinions with regards to how "safe" audits are, are somewhat split, from what i can gather split between people who actually understand the process, and the risks involved, and split between the people that just 'believe' an audit is kinda just a "standard thing you do". The audit is not your biggest problem in this.At this point you have 2 red flags. Just one is being discussed but if the other stays as it is then even with an audit you won't get this off the ground easily. Yes audit is standard , but it is not because it is viewed standard that it's basic principle form an investors point of view has changed over the years.Audit is not a safety net but a measuretool and othing more. Your measured 0 and your safetynet has holes big enough to fly a titan through.
Roman tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.10.26 16:49:00 - [40] Originally by: Cista2 Roman, if you say "Thank you for your input" again I am going to puke in my soup. Regardless of all this discussion of trust and thrust, I would be very interested in hearing how one creates an increased market demand for something like a Scimitar. I can understand how you can increase the price for the Scimitar - by buying out other sellers - but I would die to know how you can manipulate the actual demand. readies note paper Thank you for your input Actually most of the money from the Scimitar project was made by way of buy orders. Using the Pump and Dump method and by monopolizing the sale of Scimitars, the P&D increased the ISK unit price or "share price" (if you're comparing it to real world P&D's), and then within a space of about two days buy orders were filled. The process was rinsed and repeated a for a few days, the price was increased which brought the buy orders up, they were filled, the buyers put their orders on sell, which were bought up, and then the process started again. So maybei didnt word it right, demand was not increased, but manipulated in such away that more Scimitars were sold at different stages throughout the process in alignment with a P&D, people thinking they have got a "Good" deal. Think of it this way, 1000 Scimitars for sale at 150m, and you see 200 for sale at 135m, you'd buy them, right? Of course you would. What you don't know is that in fact all of the Scimitars belong to one person but you've been P&D'd into thinking you're getting a good deal.
Cista2 Jita Direct Sale	Posted - 2009.10.26 17:25:00 - [41] Ok, that was what I thought. I would love to see you lauch your company as a business venture instead of a bond. People could simply acquire your crew to manipulate markets for whatever they are producing or trading, or have stockpiled for some reason. If you guys know different regional markets well, you could design - and sell - a strategy for distribution and manipulation of any item.
Roman tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.10.26 18:11:00 - [42] Originally by: Cista2 Ok, that was what I thought. I would love to see you lauch your company as a business venture instead of a bond. People could simply acquire your crew to manipulate markets for whatever they are producing or trading, or have stockpiled for some reason. If you guys know different regional markets well, you could design - and sell - a strategy for distribution and manipulation of any item. Great idea tbh, and its not something i haven't considered before, but i don't think it'd work in the long term since you'll ultimately have clients that will cause a conflict of interest for your others, since they're all intertwined so closely.
Roguehalo Caldari Kimoto Innovations	Posted - 2009.10.26 19:15:00 - [43] It should be noted that Roman in another thread in sell orders forum has taken about 1.2b deposits against the promise of delivery of about 16b worth of the new faction ships after the patch. He said in his last post in that thread that :- "Also, ive just brought another man onto the team to help with questions/orders. You can also convo Conman/Conmen ingame should you need to place an order or have a question if im not around."
Roman tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.10.26 19:48:00 - [44] Edited by: Roman on 26/10/2009 19:50:34 Originally by: Roguehalo It should be noted that Roman in another thread in sell orders forum has taken about 1.2b deposits against the promise of delivery of about 16b worth of the new faction ships after the patch. He said in his last post in that thread that :- "Also, ive just brought another man onto the team to help with questions/orders. You can also convo Conman/Conmen ingame should you need to place an order or have a question if im not around." You are correct in that Con is a business partner.
Felo Maxun	Posted - 2009.10.26 20:26:00 - [45] if i created a character called "NotaScammerButAVeryNiceGuy" does that mean i should be trusted ? a name means nuthing
RAW23	Posted - 2009.10.26 20:28:00 - [46] Originally by: Felo Maxun if i created a character called "NotaScammerButAVeryNiceGuy" does that mean i should be trusted ? a name means nuthing Absolutely. I would hand Corporate Thief the keys to my corp in a heartbeat.
Roman tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.10.26 20:46:00 - [47] Originally by: Felo Maxun if i created a character called "NotaScammerButAVeryNiceGuy" does that mean i should be trusted ? a name means nuthing What?
Felo Maxun	Posted - 2009.10.26 20:52:00 - [48] Edited by: Felo Maxun on 26/10/2009 20:52:43 Originally by: Roguehalo It should be noted that Roman in another thread in sell orders forum has taken about 1.2b deposits against the promise of delivery of about 16b worth of the new faction ships after the patch. He said in his last post in that thread that :- "Also, ive just brought another man onto the team to help with questions/orders. You can also convo Conman/Conmen ingame should you need to place an order or have a question if im not around." This came across as Roguehalo suggesting that beacuse your partners name is CONman, your schemes are a CON Definition of con - google so i was saying that the name means nuthing , if i created a character called apple , am i saying that i like apples ? although it worries me slightly somehting like that needs explaining
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.10.26 20:52:00 - [49] OK, I did a little digging into the OP. Roman is a 2003 character, but he was sold on August 31st 2009. Roman Character Sale Basically any reputation this character had died with the sale. No one trusts purchased characters on here. I wouldn't touch this without 100% collateral.
Roman tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.10.26 20:55:00 - [50] Originally by: cosmoray OK, I did a little digging into the OP. Roman is a 2003 character, but he was sold on August 31st 2009. Roman Character Sale Basically any reputation this character had died with the sale. No one trusts purchased characters on here. I wouldn't touch this without 100% collateral. If you read the original posts, it states who my characters are. Don't try and make out that because this alt was bought, that this is not legit. Nothing has been hid, so dont't try make out there has been please.
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.10.26 20:59:00 - [51] Originally by: Roman Originally by: cosmoray OK, I did a little digging into the OP. Roman is a 2003 character, but he was sold on August 31st 2009. Roman Character Sale Basically any reputation this character had died with the sale. No one trusts purchased characters on here. I wouldn't touch this without 100% collateral. If you read the original posts, it states who my characters are. Don't try and make out that because this alt was bought, that this is not legit. Nothing has been hid, so dont't try make out there has been please. There is no where in your OP that states you purchased Roman. I do like your views on customer service though. Roman's Customer Touch
Roman tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.10.26 21:08:00 - [52] Originally by: cosmoray Originally by: Roman Originally by: cosmoray OK, I did a little digging into the OP. Roman is a 2003 character, but he was sold on August 31st 2009. Roman Character Sale Basically any reputation this character had died with the sale. No one trusts purchased characters on here. I wouldn't touch this without 100% collateral. If you read the original posts, it states who my characters are. Don't try and make out that because this alt was bought, that this is not legit. Nothing has been hid, so dont't try make out there has been please. There is no where in your OP that states you purchased Roman. I do like your views on customer service though. Roman's Customer Touch And at no point did i make out that ive had this characte for years. Look at the original post, and you'll see my characters. If you're on some crusade to tarnish someones reputation, then you're only doing harm to yourself.
Roman tr0pa de elite Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.10.26 21:13:00 - [53] You're trying to find ways to discredit me, and its not working tbh!
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.10.26 21:31:00 - [54] Originally by: Roman You're trying to find ways to discredit me, and its not working tbh! Don't really need to as this won't get funding here. You may claim some in-game funds, but then people will trust you less. Your toon SpaceSavage is in Exe and was involved in the theft of the Titan, and also tried to SCAM for the prevention of its destruction. Apart from that you seem to be trying to buy/sell a few toons. None of your characters has ever really posted on MD, and even if you have a really great plan and people would trust you it is unlikely that an unknown will raise that amount of ISK. With the questions marks over reluctance to have an audit, character sales, untrustworthy actions of your main characters this business launch is dead.
Krathos Morpheus Legion Infernal	Posted - 2009.10.26 22:43:00 - [55] Originally by: Roman You're trying to find ways to discredit me, and its not working tbh! It works for me, althought you didn't have much credit to lose in the first place tbh.
RothimusPrime	Posted - 2009.10.27 15:49:00 - [56] Originally by: Roman Nothing has been hid, so dont't try make out there has been please. Plenty has been hid by avoiding an audit. While some think an audit is pointless, most don't and most will want one completed. There's nothing wrong with an audit and it can only help an offer's chances of a successful launch, it's never going to hinder it.
Suas Perkone	Posted - 2009.10.27 16:17:00 - [57] I'm not sure I would trust SpaceSavage with an IPO when he says things like this. _________________________ HELLO! My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. PREPARE TO DIE!
Felo Maxun	Posted - 2009.10.27 17:32:00 - [58] Originally by: Suas I'm not sure I would trust SpaceSavage with an IPO when he says things like this. LOL TBH that means nothing , the guy made an educated guess , i'm sure he didn't sit for 12 hours and outline the costs involved etc and arrive at that statement, he had just as much knowledge to go on as anyone. In no way am I backing up the OP but what i am saying is don't use silly little crap like that to try and harm somones name ... its pathetic.
Fleshbot	Posted - 2009.10.27 17:41:00 - [59] Originally by: Roman You're trying to find ways to discredit me, and its not working tbh! I will not be investing. Thank you Cosomoroy for doing the legwork for me.

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