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GM Homonoia Game Masters C C P Alliance 694	Posted - 2012.06.13 10:39:00 - [1] - Quote Tl;dr We are extending our rookie griefing rules to the system of Arnon. See our wiki page on this subject: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems History lesson A long long time ago in a galaxy right here in the EVE universe we had a lot of new players who undocked for the very first time and were trying to figure out how to fly their ships. There was also a small group of players that wanted to pad their kill mails in the easiest way possible by preying upon those people who had not yet found the trigger to their civilian guns. This last group moved into the rookie starter systems and started killing our new recruits. This is not cool and so us game masters decided that messing with these newest and most helpless players was not allowed. A ban was put into place for griefing rookies in their starter systems. Of course, these predators decided that rules should be followed to the letter and the spirit behind these rules can be ignored at will and moved to the career agent systems to do the exact same thing. Unfortunately this forced us to extend the ban on griefing rookies to these systems as well. Present day Now these scavengers of corpses have moved to the Sisters of EVE epic arc systems to do the exact same thing once again. This is forcing us to extend this ban to the Arnon system as well. Let me state very clearly that we do so with great reluctance. We do NOT like to impose rules and limitations like these upon the sandbox and we do not do so lightly. These measures are always debated hotly within our department and can often take multiple months of deliberation to make absolutely sure we are doing the right thing. Let me state this very clearly here. We do NOT want experienced players to mess with rookies barely a week in. We are sure that you have worthier targets than these players who are still learning the ropes. If this behavior does not stop we may extend this rule to all systems that are covered in the Sisters of EVE epic arc. These systems are: - Tar - Harerget - Hatakani - Hek - Lustrevik - Tanoo - Lisudeh - Sosh - Manarq - Chainelant Senior GM Homonoia \| Info Group \| Senior Game Master


GM Homonoia Game Masters C C P Alliance 694	Posted - 2012.06.13 10:52:00 - [2] - Quote Simi Kusoni wrote: GM Homonoia wrote: Tl;dr We are extending our rookie griefing rules to the system of Arnon. See our wiki page on this subject: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems History lesson A long long time ago in a galaxy right here in the EVE universe we had a lot of new players who undocked for the very first time and were trying to figure out how to fly their ships. There was also a small group of players that wanted to pad their kill mails in the easiest way possible by preying upon those people who had not yet found the trigger to their civilian guns. This last group moved into the rookie starter systems and started killing our new recruits. This is not cool and so us game masters decided that messing with these newest and most helpless players was not allowed. A ban was put into place for griefing rookies in their starter systems. Of course, these predators decided that rules should be followed to the letter and the spirit behind these rules can be ignored at will and moved to the career agent systems to do the exact same thing. Unfortunately this forced us to extend the ban on griefing rookies to these systems as well. Present day Now these scavengers of corpses have moved to the Sisters of EVE epic arc systems to do the exact same thing once again. This is forcing us to extend this ban to the Arnon system as well. Let me state very clearly that we do so with great reluctance. We do NOT like to impose rules and limitations like these upon the sandbox and we do not do so lightly. These measures are always debated hotly within our department and can often take multiple months of deliberation to make absolutely sure we are doing the right thing. Let me state this very clearly here. We do NOT want experienced players to mess with rookies barely a week in. We are sure that you have worthier targets than these players who are still learning the ropes. If this behavior does not stop we may extend this rule to all systems that are covered in the Sisters of EVE epic arc. These systems are: - Tar - Harerget - Hatakani - Hek - Lustrevik - Tanoo - Lisudeh - Sosh - Manarq - Chainelant If there is a ban on griefing rookies in these systems, will there also be a ban on stuff like hulk mining? And I presume anyone flying a BS/T3 is fair game right? Not that I personally ever set foot in high sec, but I wouldn't want to see these systems become a safe haven for people who aren't rookies. My post very clearly mentions rookies. We want everyone to let new players acclimate to the game before they are thrown in with the sharks. By all means, gank, steal from, scam and whatever else you want to experienced players. They should know the crack of the whip. Senior GM Homonoia \| Info Group \| Senior Game Master


GM Homonoia Game Masters C C P Alliance 695	Posted - 2012.06.13 11:02:00 - [3] - Quote DeBingJos wrote: GM Homonoia wrote: Let me state this very clearly here. We do NOT want experienced players to mess with rookies barely a week in. We are sure that you have worthier targets than these players who are still learning the ropes. If this behavior does not stop we may extend this rule to all systems that are covered in the Sisters of EVE epic arc. These systems are: - Tar - Harerget - Hatakani - Hek - Lustrevik - Tanoo - Lisudeh - Sosh - Manarq - Chainelant Hek? a rooky system? WTF? I do not like where you are going. Give the new people a better tutorial so they understand the consequences of their actions instead of putting up these artificial limitations. We are always working on that. However, we are asking our community to act as a good community. We understand that it is a relatively small group that exhibits this behavior, but if you are targeting rookies specifically you need to stop it. Now, if a rookie wanders into low sec, by all means, blow them up. But do not specifically seek out rookies for a kill, scam, gank, etc. We will be extending these rules if that behavior does not cease. Note that these rules only apply to rookies. If you want to gank a hulk miner or a missioner flying a faction fit Rattlesnake in those areas, by all means. Senior GM Homonoia \| Info Group \| Senior Game Master


GM Homonoia Game Masters C C P Alliance 699	Posted - 2012.06.13 11:10:00 - [4] - Quote Simi Kusoni wrote: GM Homonoia wrote: My post very clearly mentions rookies. We want everyone to let new players acclimate to the game before they are thrown in with the sharks. By all means, gank, steal from, scam and whatever else you want to experienced players. They should know the crack of the whip. Ty for replying, seems like a reasonable change then. Although its odd thinking of Hek as a rookie system. It isn't yet. At the moment we are only adding Arnon to that list. Senior GM Homonoia \| Info Group \| Senior Game Master


GM Homonoia Game Masters C C P Alliance 703	Posted - 2012.06.13 11:29:00 - [5] - Quote Tippia wrote: Cutter Isaacson wrote: I don't think it's so much that Hek or any of the other systems are going to be re-classed as rookie systems, but that the rules set up for rookie systems will also ensure the safety of rookies who are sent to non-rookie systems as part of their NPE. Yeah, see, that's still not the same thing, and that's where the entire problem lies: The rookie system rule does not just ensure the safety of rookies GÇö it ensures the safety of everyone. That's why reclassification of systems is a bad idea. It's also why referring to that rule outside of the actual rookie systems is a bad idea: because if we're just talking about the GÇ£don't mess with rookiesGÇ¥ policy, then it's not the rookie system rule. Finally, having two separate rules is also a bad idea because then it comes down the rules-lawyering about when someone is considered a rookie and not GÇö that differentiation will suddenly make all the difference in these not-actually-rookie-systems. Those are the same rules. There is no difference. You cannot mess with rookies. You can mess with anyone else no matter the system. veterans are NOT protected in rookie systems. Senior GM Homonoia \| Info Group \| Senior Game Master


GM Homonoia Game Masters C C P Alliance 703	Posted - 2012.06.13 11:30:00 - [6] - Quote Adriel Malakai wrote: Adriel Malakai wrote: GM Homonoia wrote: We are always working on that. However, we are asking our community to act as a good community. We understand that it is a relatively small group that exhibits this behavior, but if you are targeting rookies specifically you need to stop it. Now, if a rookie wanders into low sec, by all means, blow them up. But do not specifically seek out rookies for a kill, scam, gank, etc. We will be extending these rules if that behavior does not cease. Note that these rules only apply to rookies. If you want to gank a hulk miner or a missioner flying a faction fit Rattlesnake in those areas, by all means. EDIT: Misread post, the quote above makes it explicitly clear that it is legal to can-flip, ninja, gank, etc all blatantly non-rookie pilots, even if they're in rookie systems. With that said, can it be noted on the Rookie system wiki page that non-rookies are legal targets? After double checking the rookie systems wiki page, there is obvious conflict between your statement and the red warning at the bottom of the page. If it is indeed legal to can-flip, gank, and ninja non-rookies in these systems, then this page really needs to be updated to reflect the actual rules. Otherwise, this page basically says that all players of eve are completely safe in the listed systems. Can flipping is specifically mentioned because it is impossible to target someone specific. If you can flip a veteran in a rookie system we will (most likely) not take action against you. But if a rookie takes the bait you better not open fire. Senior GM Homonoia \| Info Group \| Senior Game Master


GM Homonoia Game Masters C C P Alliance 703	Posted - 2012.06.13 11:35:00 - [7] - Quote DeBingJos wrote: GM Homonoia wrote: Tippia wrote: Cutter Isaacson wrote: I don't think it's so much that Hek or any of the other systems are going to be re-classed as rookie systems, but that the rules set up for rookie systems will also ensure the safety of rookies who are sent to non-rookie systems as part of their NPE. Yeah, see, that's still not the same thing, and that's where the entire problem lies: The rookie system rule does not just ensure the safety of rookies GÇö it ensures the safety of everyone. That's why reclassification of systems is a bad idea. It's also why referring to that rule outside of the actual rookie systems is a bad idea: because if we're just talking about the GÇ£don't mess with rookiesGÇ¥ policy, then it's not the rookie system rule. Finally, having two separate rules is also a bad idea because then it comes down the rules-lawyering about when someone is considered a rookie and not GÇö that differentiation will suddenly make all the difference in these not-actually-rookie-systems. Those are the same rules. There is no difference. You cannot mess with rookies. You can mess with anyone else no matter the system. veterans are NOT protected in rookie systems. Then define a rookie please.Is it a player on a trial account? How can we see this ingame? We are not going to define them. We say 8 days, someone will target 9 day old people. Again, spirit of the rule, not the letter. If you find yourself trying to figure out specifically where we draw the line you are obviously targeting rookies, which is NOT allowed. You decide to do this, you will find out where the line is when we warn you. Senior GM Homonoia \| Info Group \| Senior Game Master


GM Spiral Game Masters C C P Alliance 111	Posted - 2012.06.13 11:36:00 - [8] - Quote Stopgap measures such as these policies are in place until a proper update to the NPE can be made. Measures that are less disruptive to the sandbox environments are being looked into. Can baiting non-rookies in a rookie system? This is a monumentally bad idea on many levels. Dump a can outside a rookie system station or in a rookie system asteroid belt and try to convince me that the rookie you "accidentally" blew up after he poked around in your container was not an intended target. Take can baiting OUT of rookie systems! There are far more entertaining targets out there than those found in those systems. We'll keep the ruling as it stands on the wiki and act on reports as appropriate as they come in. GM discretion in these cases will apply. Senior Game Master \| EVE Online Customer Support Team \| Info Group \| CCP Games Helping capsuleers since 2004.


GM Homonoia Game Masters C C P Alliance 706	Posted - 2012.06.13 11:39:00 - [9] - Quote Tippia wrote: GM Homonoia wrote: Those are the same rules. There is no difference. You cannot mess with rookies. You can mess with anyone else no matter the system. veterans are NOT protected in rookie systems. Ok, but that's not what the rule says, and it's not how it has been interpreted in the past. I'll also refer you to this thread, where the lack of such a distinction is causing issues. But ok, if you say so. That certainly solves the issue, but it (once again) casts the rule itself in a new light. Quote: Can flipping is specifically mentioned because it is impossible to target someone specific. Eh? You mean baiting, I preseum, since can flipping is very specific GÇö it one individual player (or corpGÇª but since we're talking rookies here, they'll be in NPC corps and therefore be on their own) that is being targeted for the trick. My apologies, I did mean can baiting. Senior GM Homonoia \| Info Group \| Senior Game Master


GM Homonoia Game Masters C C P Alliance 706	Posted - 2012.06.13 11:39:00 - [10] - Quote gfldex wrote: GM Homonoia wrote: My post very clearly mentions rookies. As long as you don't define what a rookie is, you can mention them as often as you want, without making anything clear. Re-quote from another post: We are not going to define them. We say 8 days, someone will target 9 day old people. Again, spirit of the rule, not the letter. If you find yourself trying to figure out specifically where we draw the line you are obviously targeting rookies, which is NOT allowed. You decide to do this, you will find out where the line is when we warn you. Senior GM Homonoia \| Info Group \| Senior Game Master



GM Homonoia Game Masters C C P Alliance 706	Posted - 2012.06.13 11:45:00 - [11] - Quote Adriel Malakai wrote: GM Homonoia wrote: Can flipping is specifically mentioned because it is impossible to target someone specific. If you can flip a veteran in a rookie system we will (most likely) not take action against you. But if a rookie takes the bait you better not open fire. I definitely understand the not-shooting at rookies if they take a flipped can, I was more concerned with the more common use-case of can-flipping, which is simply stealing to gain aggro against the owning player/corporation. As long as it's still legal to steal from non-rookies and kill them (via flipping, stealing, ganking, ninjaing, war, or any other means) in these systems, then this is a perfectly reasonable rule. If these 25 systems are 100% safe zones for all players, then that's completely out of line and goes against the whole "no-where is safe" thing. See the post made by GM Spiral above. GM discretion is applied here and we generally do not protect veteran players, but if a rookie gets caught in the crossfire we act accordingly. Senior GM Homonoia \| Info Group \| Senior Game Master


GM Homonoia Game Masters C C P Alliance 708	Posted - 2012.06.13 12:40:00 - [12] - Quote DeBingJos wrote: Cutter Isaacson wrote: DeBingJos wrote: Remember, adding non-rookie systems like Hek and Arnon to the list opens up other griefing oppurtunities 1. Create new toon 2. Set course to Hek 3. Probe a mission runner 4. Steal loot 5. Report him for griefing when he shoots you< 6. Collect tears. I am still very much in favor of improving the tutorials with a lot of info about game mechanics instead of these rules. A simple check by a Dev or GM to find any other characters on the same account, or any accounts linked to the same email address or customer information would cover most of those eventualities. There are ways around that but it would require a fair amount of effort, not something your ordinary rookie ganker is capable of. Anyone going so far as to set up another account under false credentials, using a separate email address and possibly even a different IP address just to grief other players using this mechanic is not going to be swayed by the rules, no matter HOW harsh they are, because clearly they would be mentally ill. The problem with all these extra rules is that they create a slippery slope. What is next? New players will not be griefed in the Epic arc, but when they finish it it is ok to grief them? Where do you draw the line? Don't push the line and we will not have to draw it. Senior GM Homonoia \| Info Group \| Senior Game Master


GM Homonoia Game Masters C C P Alliance 716	Posted - 2012.06.13 13:01:00 - [13] - Quote Terranid Meester wrote: Gatosai wrote: Terranid Meester wrote: Personally I feel some of the GM's are not up to the job and their discretion is poorly implementated. I also feel that rookies should not be protected and in-game mechanics should be used in place to help rookie pilots understand the basic nature of eve. If a rookie gets killed its not as if they lose much in the first place. What if a new player buys a character with an officer fit tengu. Can they be classed as rookies? What about alts? I don't kill rookies myself unless Im at war with them or something like that. Personally I don't think a GM or a senior GM response is good enough in this manner. I would much prefer an official GM response and also some CSM responses. oh yea sure might as well ask your local butcher for his opinion too i suppose? Local butcher might be the mayor or a member of the parish council. I meant to say CCP response. You got a CCP response. /me looks at my GM tag. Yep, CCP Senior GM Homonoia \| Info Group \| Senior Game Master


GM Homonoia Game Masters C C P Alliance 717	Posted - 2012.06.13 13:07:00 - [14] - Quote Terranid Meester wrote: GM Homonoia wrote: You got a CCP response. /me looks at my GM tag. Yep, CCP Sorry I meant to say a member of CCP who is not also a GM who can also speak on such matters. Someone from gameplay [if they are involved in such things ] for instance? Game design does not make the decisions on that. The game master team is the sole arbitrator on TQ policies; we are the ones setting these policies. Senior GM Homonoia \| Info Group \| Senior Game Master


ISD Tyrozan ISD Community Communications Liaisons 1	Posted - 2012.06.13 20:18:00 - [15] - Quote Topic locked. ISD Tyrozan Ensign Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department