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Garr Anders
Minmatar Thukk U
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Posted - 2009.11.02 11:35:00 -
[1]
[Proposal] Scan-able wrecks and containers/strengthen the salvager profession
Proposal:
- Make wrecks and containers scan-able with scan probes.
Motivation:
- This would strengthen the salvager as independent profession and would allow them to scan for the wrecks that are left behind by mission runners, rather than the need to scan for the active mission runner in his mission.
- This would ease on the relation ship between mission runners and salvagers as the salvager does not need to salvage the wrecks under the eyes of an active mission runner, especially since the mission runners still think that salvage belongs to them, which is not the case as stated by CCP several times.
- It would also relieve the database from maintaining left behind wrecks for the full two hours and could works as player driven "database cleaning" of objects.
----- Garr Anders
"The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
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Cyberman Mastermind
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Posted - 2009.11.02 12:08:00 -
[2]
I'm not sure if this is a troll or ... - you know, I think it IS a troll.
There is no way you can actually believe what you wrote.
Not supported. Ninja salvaging is easy enough. |
Dvorak Telemnar
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Posted - 2009.11.02 12:48:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Dvorak Telemnar on 02/11/2009 12:50:55 I can't see any reason why wrecks should not be scannable.
Ninja salvaging is a legitimate (albeit hated) career and this would expand on it and possibly open it up to those who do not want the in-your-face of the current ninja salvaging stigma.
Supported. |
Da'Than
Interstellar Military Industries
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Posted - 2009.11.02 13:31:00 -
[4]
Yes please, there are so many missions unsalvaged, why waste that?
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Zedah Zoid
Nutz N Boltz DEFI4NT
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Posted - 2009.11.02 14:06:00 -
[5]
Makes perfect sense that you should be able to scan for wrecks to me. |
Maxsim Goratiev
Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.11.02 14:06:00 -
[6]
Yes, this is a valid suggestion. I would still prefer it to be flaggable... but whatever. |
Garr Anders
Thukk U
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Posted - 2009.11.02 15:25:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Garr Anders on 02/11/2009 15:27:23 Some further thoughts:
It should be more difficult to get a hit on a wreck than on a ship in general.
AFAIK deadspaces "cover" players ships slightly from scanning making it slightly more difficult to scan them when they are in a deadspace (in the old system). In the old system ppl were thus scanning for the drones rather than for the ship itself. Im not sure how this works under the new system though.
Scanning a ship does require special probes, namely the combat probes. So scanning a mission runner indirectly by using core probes to scan the wrecks would become possible, but you wouldnt know if one is inside till you get there.
So to not make ppl abuse normal core probes to scan down mission runners "indirectly" it should be fairly difficult with cores to scan wrecks.
Still this would at least allow you to scan down for those wrecks that get left behind by a mission runner or left behind by exploration site users who didnt clean up their exploration site.
In addition since deadspaces areas dissapear after a while the "covering" of it (as stated above) will dissapear too (if it still exist), so it could be that scanning wrecks in a not active mission could/can be easier than scanning for wrecks in an active mission
Further, as stated in the weekly salvager thread in the general discussion (now moved and locked to features and discussions ):
- It's not Ninja salvaging, since currently you're doing it right under the nose of the mission runner. There is nothing stealthy about it . It would be ninja if you could do it without noticing the salvager.
- It's not stealing as CCP has stated several times that they want salvaging to be an independent profession.
And naturally I support my own idea ;) ----- Garr Anders
"The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
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Daemonspirit
An Android Lust
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Posted - 2009.11.02 15:40:00 -
[8]
I've always wondered why wrecks weren't scannable? Possibly make it so that any wrecks that are left after the mission is turned in become scannable? I.E. - Turn in mission, wrecks now "become" scannable. vOv
I like this idea. ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö |
Warg Matar
Thukk U
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Posted - 2009.11.02 15:42:00 -
[9]
It makes sense to me! When I was missioning myself, I always went with a salvager and did everything before handing the mission in. Probably not very efficient, but in my opinion that small part of "personal deadspace" you get from your agent can't be yours for all eternity. Salvaging is not "part" of missioning either in my opinion, as it is entirely possible to complete a mission by not salvaging a single wreck. So to a missioner, salvage is also a different profession so to say, and should be up for contest!
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MatrixSkye Mk2
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Posted - 2009.11.02 16:01:00 -
[10]
This actually sounds very reasonable.
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Pan Dora
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.11.02 19:23:00 -
[11]
_
I like to play this game because it make my in-game actions and archievments to mean something in-game. |
Alizandro Goderaski
Broski Enterprises No Fun Allowed
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Posted - 2009.11.02 19:36:00 -
[12]
Love it, make it so!
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Che Biko
Polytechnique Gallenteenne
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Posted - 2009.11.02 23:12:00 -
[13]
Well, ok.
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Egilmonsc
Broski Enterprises No Fun Allowed
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Posted - 2009.11.03 02:58:00 -
[14]
I began reading this a bit wary, but am convinced that this would be a nice tweak. This would be a good use of those wrecks left from standing speed runs. Where we're going, we won't need eyes to see. |
Frug
Omega Wing
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Posted - 2009.11.03 05:18:00 -
[15]
The key point in this is that it increases the chances of finding empty missions, which is something the mission runners shouldn't complain about.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Whisper/PrismX 4 emperor |
Arnbjorg
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.11.03 09:41:00 -
[16]
I like this idea, but I have question, would this scan probe be a specialist probe? with the possibility of having a specialist launcher?
More carebear tears though
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Morar Santee
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Posted - 2009.11.03 17:41:00 -
[17]
Supported - if they also fix flagging mechanics so I can actually shoot down ninja salvagers. It's "risk vs reward", not "scan probes + t1 frigates vs reward". Thank you.
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Mr Electromagnetic
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Posted - 2009.11.03 17:48:00 -
[18]
I don't have issues with scanning wrecks that exist in space after a mission has been completed and the deadspace removed. In that situation, the missioner has abandoned the wrecks and anybody who can scan/locate the wrecks should be able to do with them as he/she pleases.
Where I have problems with scanning down wrecks is when the missioner is actively working a mission. Already it's far too common to be in the middle of a mission, killing rats, tractoring wrecks and attempting to salvage all at the same time when some git shows up and starts salvaging.
If deadspace prevented wrecks from being scannable I could support your proposal.
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Arnbjorg
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.11.03 18:17:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Morar Santee Supported - if they also fix flagging mechanics so I can actually shoot down ninja salvagers. It's "risk vs reward", not "scan probes + t1 frigates vs reward". Thank you.
To fix something would have to be broke, the flagging mechanices are NOT broken, salvage does NOT belong to you and salvaging a wreck is therefore NOT stealing, CCP has designed the game that way and has stated it many times. If you don't like it I suggest you start another thread proposing that salvage has ownership rights, not derail this one. Plus you mention "Risk vs Reward" but what exactly is the risk for the carebear highsec mission grinder these days? Very little is the answer.
And stop saying ninja salvager, they have absolutly no relation to ninjas!!
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Don Pellegrino
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Posted - 2009.11.03 18:21:00 -
[20]
No reason why it cannot be done.
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Garr Anders
Minmatar Thukk U
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Posted - 2009.11.03 18:30:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Morar Santee Supported - if they also fix flagging mechanics so I can actually shoot down ninja salvagers. It's "risk vs reward", not "scan probes + t1 frigates vs reward". Thank you.
In light of CCPs current stance toward salvaging changing flaggin mechanics, is only trying to cure "symptons" of something that according to CCP is working as intended: The salvage is not yours.
In addition to that the current different proposal regarding salvaging and ownership rights always just and solely focus/surround the issue from the "it's mine" and "it's not" point of stance, to which CCP already took a decision, which is: it is not.
So rather than just opting/looking for new possibilities and changes, ppl have so far just "argue(d) about something that already has been decided" ( Malcom Reynolds - Jaynestown - Firefly).
The changes I suggest are pointing toward a different direction, namely making those wrecks that are really left behind - and IMHO there are more than enough of them in space, not only in mission spots like Motsu - and available to the salvager profession, thus giving the salvager profession more options to find his salvage - and maybe even easier.
By making wrecks in "none deadspace" easier to scan as suggested, from a salvager ISK/hour point of view, there is no reason to further scan down a signal with just e.g. 40%, when you already have a lock on a field of wrecks where you can warp to immediately and start salvaging right away.
The Expanded Probe Launcher needs a higher skill level as well, so the "starting salvager" could start his profession even at a lower skill level. ----- Garr Anders
"The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2009.11.03 18:31:00 -
[22]
Supported.
I would like to scan down unscannable t3 cruisers doing escalations in lo sec.
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Zahorite
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Posted - 2009.11.03 19:26:00 -
[23]
If implemented in the way the original post suggests this would be a major step towards fixing the ninja salvage problem.
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Fille Balle
Ballbreakers R us
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Posted - 2009.11.03 19:56:00 -
[24]
I'm not a salvager, and I never will be. But I support the idea of scanning wrecks as this would imo make salvager a real mini profession, and not a fake leech off of other profession.
The only problem I can see with this is that it would make mission running in lowsec more dangerous, wich isn't a good thing. Lowsec is almost completely devoid of any pve activity, and this would just hammer the nail in the coffin.
Despite that, I'm still in favor of this, as imo as soon as this is implemented, a fix can be found. Also, I believe lowec could do with an overhaul, and this could be added in to the mix when that is done (unless they decide to kill off lowsec that is).
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Morar Santee
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Posted - 2009.11.03 21:19:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Arnbjorg
Originally by: Morar Santee Supported - if they also fix flagging mechanics so I can actually shoot down ninja salvagers. It's "risk vs reward", not "scan probes + t1 frigates vs reward". Thank you.
To fix something would have to be broke, the flagging mechanices are NOT broken, salvage does NOT belong to you and salvaging a wreck is therefore NOT stealing, CCP has designed the game that way and has stated it many times. If you don't like it I suggest you start another thread proposing that salvage has ownership rights, not derail this one. Plus you mention "Risk vs Reward" but what exactly is the risk for the carebear highsec mission grinder these days? Very little is the answer.
And stop saying ninja salvager, they have absolutly no relation to ninjas!!
I'm fully aware of what's been stated. And it makes perfect sense, too. I mean, why would salvaging a wreck flag you to the corporation that shot it down, when removing something from the same wreck does, right? The "ownership" issue has already been decided. There's precisely two reasons why CCP is shying away from making salvaging a hostile act. 1. Mission running in high-sec has a considerably high ISK/hour value for relatively low risk. 2. It would involve additional coding.
Yes, mission-running is relatively safe. I'm not asking for it to be made safer. But here we are, and people are asking for easier access to wrecks which they can salvage with 0 risk involved, so they can create extensive revenue from the use of t1 frigates. And every time you mention flags (a.k.a. risk) they go up in arms. Because it's unjustified? Or perhaps because then they would actually have to pay attention and have risk involved with making their ISK?
This is a ridiculous discussion, and that's the end of it. Oh, and before I forget it: "ninja salvager".
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Ffreyn Moonflower
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2009.11.03 21:24:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Ffreyn Moonflower on 03/11/2009 21:24:26 I think wrecks should be scannable, but not while the deadspace is active (or atleast make it very difficult).
This opens up salvaging more as a profession, without the need to ninja salvage - although that activity is not removed.
But I also think the deadspace should dissipate between 30-60 mins after the mission objective is completed, rather than waiting until it is handed in.
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Ku'Nari Skywall
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Posted - 2009.11.04 01:12:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Ku''Nari Skywall on 04/11/2009 01:13:34 I think this proposal would only help "abandoned" lvl 4 mission wrecks. Seems like when I plan to salvage a lvl 4 mission a "salvager" often comes in and starts on the wrecks when I'm in the middle of the mission. I don't always plan to salvage missions, even lvl 4's, when I'm grinding reputation or LP.
Recently, when I was on my reputation grind in lvl 2 & 3's I rarely seen one. When I did they'd quickly warp off without salvaging.
Returning a type of deadspace cover for active missions is interesting. CCP would have to make everything harder to scan in deadspace or they'd just scan down the drones/ships.
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Yon Krum
The Knights Templar R.A.G.E
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Posted - 2009.11.04 05:48:00 -
[28]
First, "heh". Thanks for bringing back one of my topic threads from before. :)
Second, yes, wrecks should only be scan-able by combat probes, be generally kinda hard, and only possible outside of a deadspace.
It would, in fact, make it possible to probe-out T3 ships in lowsec... whatever. That's what cloaks and observant players are for. Plus, sifting through a system's wrecks to find one, active, player is not good odds. If you want to do that, more power to you.
This idea, overall, is and always has been designed to give the "ninja salvager" a target OTHER than players in active missions. If someone chose to continue to invade missions to salvage, for the tears, then that's their choice, but economically they have other places they can be--unlike now.
--Krum
(PS. Ninja salvagers go after BS wrecks, and if they see you're running a L2 or L3, will just skip it for another person's mission. It's their efficiency calculation.) --Krum |
Aniel Zaar
BIG Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.11.04 05:52:00 -
[29]
I agree with OP. *-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^*-*^-^ |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.04 07:54:00 -
[30]
It make too easy scanning people in missions (even if the deadspace effect was restored), doing encounter/exploration sites and so on, beside the small problem required by adding sensor strength to all wrecks and at the same time it will create a quantity of signals that will mask ship without wrecks nearby.
If they have 0 sensor strength any probe will get a 100% hit at first try: size/0 sensor strength = infinite signature.
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