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[Proposal] Scan-able wrecks&containers for the salvager profession

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Garr Anders Minmatar Thukk U	Posted - 2009.11.02 11:35:00 - [1] [Proposal] Scan-able wrecks and containers/strengthen the salvager profession Proposal: Make wrecks and containers scan-able with scan probes. Motivation: This would strengthen the salvager as independent profession and would allow them to scan for the wrecks that are left behind by mission runners, rather than the need to scan for the active mission runner in his mission. This would ease on the relation ship between mission runners and salvagers as the salvager does not need to salvage the wrecks under the eyes of an active mission runner, especially since the mission runners still think that salvage belongs to them, which is not the case as stated by CCP several times. It would also relieve the database from maintaining left behind wrecks for the full two hours and could works as player driven "database cleaning" of objects. ----- Garr Anders "The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
Cyberman Mastermind	Posted - 2009.11.02 12:08:00 - [2] I'm not sure if this is a troll or ... - you know, I think it IS a troll. There is no way you can actually believe what you wrote. Not supported. Ninja salvaging is easy enough.
Dvorak Telemnar	Posted - 2009.11.02 12:48:00 - [3] Edited by: Dvorak Telemnar on 02/11/2009 12:50:55 I can't see any reason why wrecks should not be scannable. Ninja salvaging is a legitimate (albeit hated) career and this would expand on it and possibly open it up to those who do not want the in-your-face of the current ninja salvaging stigma. Supported.
Da'Than Interstellar Military Industries	Posted - 2009.11.02 13:31:00 - [4] Yes please, there are so many missions unsalvaged, why waste that?
Zedah Zoid Nutz N Boltz DEFI4NT	Posted - 2009.11.02 14:06:00 - [5] Makes perfect sense that you should be able to scan for wrecks to me.
Maxsim Goratiev Imperial Tau Syndicate	Posted - 2009.11.02 14:06:00 - [6] Yes, this is a valid suggestion. I would still prefer it to be flaggable... but whatever.
Garr Anders Thukk U	Posted - 2009.11.02 15:25:00 - [7] Edited by: Garr Anders on 02/11/2009 15:27:23 Some further thoughts: It should be more difficult to get a hit on a wreck than on a ship in general. AFAIK deadspaces "cover" players ships slightly from scanning making it slightly more difficult to scan them when they are in a deadspace (in the old system). In the old system ppl were thus scanning for the drones rather than for the ship itself. Im not sure how this works under the new system though. Scanning a ship does require special probes, namely the combat probes. So scanning a mission runner indirectly by using core probes to scan the wrecks would become possible, but you wouldnt know if one is inside till you get there. So to not make ppl abuse normal core probes to scan down mission runners "indirectly" it should be fairly difficult with cores to scan wrecks. Still this would at least allow you to scan down for those wrecks that get left behind by a mission runner or left behind by exploration site users who didnt clean up their exploration site. In addition since deadspaces areas dissapear after a while the "covering" of it (as stated above) will dissapear too (if it still exist), so it could be that scanning wrecks in a not active mission could/can be easier than scanning for wrecks in an active mission Further, as stated in the weekly salvager thread in the general discussion (now moved and locked to features and discussions ): It's not Ninja salvaging, since currently you're doing it right under the nose of the mission runner. There is nothing stealthy about it . It would be ninja if you could do it without noticing the salvager. It's not stealing as CCP has stated several times that they want salvaging to be an independent profession. And naturally I support my own idea ;) ----- Garr Anders "The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
Daemonspirit An Android Lust	Posted - 2009.11.02 15:40:00 - [8] I've always wondered why wrecks weren't scannable? Possibly make it so that any wrecks that are left after the mission is turned in become scannable? I.E. - Turn in mission, wrecks now "become" scannable. vOv I like this idea. ôEveryone has a right to be stupid; some people just abuse the privilege.ö
Warg Matar Thukk U	Posted - 2009.11.02 15:42:00 - [9] It makes sense to me! When I was missioning myself, I always went with a salvager and did everything before handing the mission in. Probably not very efficient, but in my opinion that small part of "personal deadspace" you get from your agent can't be yours for all eternity. Salvaging is not "part" of missioning either in my opinion, as it is entirely possible to complete a mission by not salvaging a single wreck. So to a missioner, salvage is also a different profession so to say, and should be up for contest!
MatrixSkye Mk2	Posted - 2009.11.02 16:01:00 - [10] This actually sounds very reasonable.
Pan Dora Perkone	Posted - 2009.11.02 19:23:00 - [11] _ I like to play this game because it make my in-game actions and archievments to mean something in-game.
Alizandro Goderaski Broski Enterprises No Fun Allowed	Posted - 2009.11.02 19:36:00 - [12] Love it, make it so!
Che Biko Polytechnique Gallenteenne	Posted - 2009.11.02 23:12:00 - [13] Well, ok.
Egilmonsc Broski Enterprises No Fun Allowed	Posted - 2009.11.03 02:58:00 - [14] I began reading this a bit wary, but am convinced that this would be a nice tweak. This would be a good use of those wrecks left from standing speed runs. Where we're going, we won't need eyes to see.
Frug Omega Wing	Posted - 2009.11.03 05:18:00 - [15] The key point in this is that it increases the chances of finding empty missions, which is something the mission runners shouldn't complain about. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Whisper/PrismX 4 emperor
Arnbjorg SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.11.03 09:41:00 - [16] I like this idea, but I have question, would this scan probe be a specialist probe? with the possibility of having a specialist launcher? More carebear tears though
Morar Santee	Posted - 2009.11.03 17:41:00 - [17] Supported - if they also fix flagging mechanics so I can actually shoot down ninja salvagers. It's "risk vs reward", not "scan probes + t1 frigates vs reward". Thank you.
Mr Electromagnetic	Posted - 2009.11.03 17:48:00 - [18] I don't have issues with scanning wrecks that exist in space after a mission has been completed and the deadspace removed. In that situation, the missioner has abandoned the wrecks and anybody who can scan/locate the wrecks should be able to do with them as he/she pleases. Where I have problems with scanning down wrecks is when the missioner is actively working a mission. Already it's far too common to be in the middle of a mission, killing rats, tractoring wrecks and attempting to salvage all at the same time when some git shows up and starts salvaging. If deadspace prevented wrecks from being scannable I could support your proposal.
Arnbjorg SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.11.03 18:17:00 - [19] Originally by: Morar Santee Supported - if they also fix flagging mechanics so I can actually shoot down ninja salvagers. It's "risk vs reward", not "scan probes + t1 frigates vs reward". Thank you. To fix something would have to be broke, the flagging mechanices are NOT broken, salvage does NOT belong to you and salvaging a wreck is therefore NOT stealing, CCP has designed the game that way and has stated it many times. If you don't like it I suggest you start another thread proposing that salvage has ownership rights, not derail this one. Plus you mention "Risk vs Reward" but what exactly is the risk for the carebear highsec mission grinder these days? Very little is the answer. And stop saying ninja salvager, they have absolutly no relation to ninjas!!
Don Pellegrino	Posted - 2009.11.03 18:21:00 - [20] No reason why it cannot be done.
Garr Anders Minmatar Thukk U	Posted - 2009.11.03 18:30:00 - [21] Originally by: Morar Santee Supported - if they also fix flagging mechanics so I can actually shoot down ninja salvagers. It's "risk vs reward", not "scan probes + t1 frigates vs reward". Thank you. In light of CCPs current stance toward salvaging changing flaggin mechanics, is only trying to cure "symptons" of something that according to CCP is working as intended: The salvage is not yours. In addition to that the current different proposal regarding salvaging and ownership rights always just and solely focus/surround the issue from the "it's mine" and "it's not" point of stance, to which CCP already took a decision, which is: it is not. So rather than just opting/looking for new possibilities and changes, ppl have so far just "argue(d) about something that already has been decided" ( Malcom Reynolds - Jaynestown - Firefly). The changes I suggest are pointing toward a different direction, namely making those wrecks that are really left behind - and IMHO there are more than enough of them in space, not only in mission spots like Motsu - and available to the salvager profession, thus giving the salvager profession more options to find his salvage - and maybe even easier. By making wrecks in "none deadspace" easier to scan as suggested, from a salvager ISK/hour point of view, there is no reason to further scan down a signal with just e.g. 40%, when you already have a lock on a field of wrecks where you can warp to immediately and start salvaging right away. The Expanded Probe Launcher needs a higher skill level as well, so the "starting salvager" could start his profession even at a lower skill level. ----- Garr Anders "The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2009.11.03 18:31:00 - [22] Supported. I would like to scan down unscannable t3 cruisers doing escalations in lo sec.
Zahorite	Posted - 2009.11.03 19:26:00 - [23] If implemented in the way the original post suggests this would be a major step towards fixing the ninja salvage problem.
Fille Balle Ballbreakers R us	Posted - 2009.11.03 19:56:00 - [24] I'm not a salvager, and I never will be. But I support the idea of scanning wrecks as this would imo make salvager a real mini profession, and not a fake leech off of other profession. The only problem I can see with this is that it would make mission running in lowsec more dangerous, wich isn't a good thing. Lowsec is almost completely devoid of any pve activity, and this would just hammer the nail in the coffin. Despite that, I'm still in favor of this, as imo as soon as this is implemented, a fix can be found. Also, I believe lowec could do with an overhaul, and this could be added in to the mix when that is done (unless they decide to kill off lowsec that is).
Morar Santee	Posted - 2009.11.03 21:19:00 - [25] Originally by: Arnbjorg Originally by: Morar Santee Supported - if they also fix flagging mechanics so I can actually shoot down ninja salvagers. It's "risk vs reward", not "scan probes + t1 frigates vs reward". Thank you. To fix something would have to be broke, the flagging mechanices are NOT broken, salvage does NOT belong to you and salvaging a wreck is therefore NOT stealing, CCP has designed the game that way and has stated it many times. If you don't like it I suggest you start another thread proposing that salvage has ownership rights, not derail this one. Plus you mention "Risk vs Reward" but what exactly is the risk for the carebear highsec mission grinder these days? Very little is the answer. And stop saying ninja salvager, they have absolutly no relation to ninjas!! I'm fully aware of what's been stated. And it makes perfect sense, too. I mean, why would salvaging a wreck flag you to the corporation that shot it down, when removing something from the same wreck does, right? The "ownership" issue has already been decided. There's precisely two reasons why CCP is shying away from making salvaging a hostile act. 1. Mission running in high-sec has a considerably high ISK/hour value for relatively low risk. 2. It would involve additional coding. Yes, mission-running is relatively safe. I'm not asking for it to be made safer. But here we are, and people are asking for easier access to wrecks which they can salvage with 0 risk involved, so they can create extensive revenue from the use of t1 frigates. And every time you mention flags (a.k.a. risk) they go up in arms. Because it's unjustified? Or perhaps because then they would actually have to pay attention and have risk involved with making their ISK? This is a ridiculous discussion, and that's the end of it. Oh, and before I forget it: "ninja salvager".
Ffreyn Moonflower Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2009.11.03 21:24:00 - [26] Edited by: Ffreyn Moonflower on 03/11/2009 21:24:26 I think wrecks should be scannable, but not while the deadspace is active (or atleast make it very difficult). This opens up salvaging more as a profession, without the need to ninja salvage - although that activity is not removed. But I also think the deadspace should dissipate between 30-60 mins after the mission objective is completed, rather than waiting until it is handed in.
Ku'Nari Skywall	Posted - 2009.11.04 01:12:00 - [27] Edited by: Ku''Nari Skywall on 04/11/2009 01:13:34 I think this proposal would only help "abandoned" lvl 4 mission wrecks. Seems like when I plan to salvage a lvl 4 mission a "salvager" often comes in and starts on the wrecks when I'm in the middle of the mission. I don't always plan to salvage missions, even lvl 4's, when I'm grinding reputation or LP. Recently, when I was on my reputation grind in lvl 2 & 3's I rarely seen one. When I did they'd quickly warp off without salvaging. Returning a type of deadspace cover for active missions is interesting. CCP would have to make everything harder to scan in deadspace or they'd just scan down the drones/ships.
Yon Krum The Knights Templar R.A.G.E	Posted - 2009.11.04 05:48:00 - [28] First, "heh". Thanks for bringing back one of my topic threads from before. :) Second, yes, wrecks should only be scan-able by combat probes, be generally kinda hard, and only possible outside of a deadspace. It would, in fact, make it possible to probe-out T3 ships in lowsec... whatever. That's what cloaks and observant players are for. Plus, sifting through a system's wrecks to find one, active, player is not good odds. If you want to do that, more power to you. This idea, overall, is and always has been designed to give the "ninja salvager" a target OTHER than players in active missions. If someone chose to continue to invade missions to salvage, for the tears, then that's their choice, but economically they have other places they can be--unlike now. --Krum (PS. Ninja salvagers go after BS wrecks, and if they see you're running a L2 or L3, will just skip it for another person's mission. It's their efficiency calculation.) --Krum
Aniel Zaar BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2009.11.04 05:52:00 - [29] I agree with OP. -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.04 07:54:00 - [30] It make too easy scanning people in missions (even if the deadspace effect was restored), doing encounter/exploration sites and so on, beside the small problem required by adding sensor strength to all wrecks and at the same time it will create a quantity of signals that will mask ship without wrecks nearby. If they have 0 sensor strength any probe will get a 100% hit at first try: size/0 sensor strength = infinite signature.
Garr Anders Minmatar Thukk U	Posted - 2009.11.04 07:54:00 - [31] Originally by: Yon Krum Second, yes, wrecks should only be scan-able by combat probes, be generally kinda hard, and only possible outside of a deadspace. Actually I was thinking more of using core probes (allowing this at one skill level earlier and thus with the core probe launcher already), to keep combat probes for "intact" ships only. I do also think that the skill requirements for the different probes are kinda mixed up. The core probes should be useable at astrometics (just like now) lvl I, the deep probes at III (which is now at V) and the combat at 5 ( now at I). And I would move the expanded probe launcher skill requirement from astrometics II to III as well. This would distinguish the dedicated salvager - being able to scan directly for wrecks - from those that are looking for ships. ----- Garr Anders "The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
Arnbjorg SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.11.04 08:56:00 - [32] Edited by: Arnbjorg on 04/11/2009 08:56:41 Originally by: Venkul Mul If they have 0 sensor strength any probe will get a 100% hit at first try: size/0 sensor strength = infinite signature. You can't divide by zero, and in the case of Eve will most likely cause a server crash or may result in a not-a-number value. So anything with a signal strength of zero would have to be handled differently from the normal algorithm.
Garr Anders Minmatar Thukk U	Posted - 2009.11.05 14:04:00 - [33] In light of the number of pages any salvage threads gets and how fast those threads and up discussing something that has already been decided I think this warrants a bump to my proposal in hope it gets some more attention and support again. ----- Garr Anders "The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
Ryric Krael	Posted - 2009.11.05 17:37:00 - [34] I like this idea. Obviously CCP's stance on Ninja looting is do to their being no distinguishing between deepspace active missions and just left over wrecks from a missioner. The one cavet though is that scanning for wrecks should not increase the odds of finding an active mission more then current methods. Additionally with the ability to distinguish between active and left over mission wrecks the stance on salvaging a mission while it is actively being completed should be re-examined granting the missioner the first opportunity on his own wrecks. CCP's stance currently is a necessary one for the survival of salvaging as a viable profession, however with these changes flagging ninja salvaging would work without harming the salvaging industry. ALL ABOUT BALANCE.
Markus Reese Caldari Lorentzian Expeditionaries	Posted - 2009.11.05 19:27:00 - [35] I like the idea of scannable wrecks myself. But as to another part of discussion, the claimant rights and abandonment that has been mentioned in different parts, I would like to see an auto abandon option in menu first off. This way I don't need to click anything. Second, the ability to abandon jet cans if/while wrecks are unscannable. This way I can dump bookmarks of my mission sites outside of station undock and whoever gets them first can take. To have wrecks scannable and keep server load down, I recommend that the site works on scanning the grid it is on instead of the item itself.
Yckoj	Posted - 2009.11.05 20:57:00 - [36] I approve of this idea (that might have something to do with me not having any encounters with ninja salvagers before...). The amount of people blitzing missions for standings seem to be a lot and there is no reason why those wrecks, and in extension all other wrecks of course, should not be scannable.
tyroney	Posted - 2009.11.05 21:48:00 - [37] Edited by: tyroney on 05/11/2009 21:48:44 Edited by: tyroney on 05/11/2009 21:48:19 Personally, I like the sound of this. I think an important consideration is whether it is desirable to make salvaging a career. If it is, salvage yield might need to be decreased (along with this change) and a new tier of skills and wreck difficulty added, etc. Has anything official been said along the lines of whether salvaging is an end or just another thing? (Lately it seems like scanning/exploration has been heading in the "not really a dedicated career" and toward the "just something everyone does" direction, sadly)
Damien Anders The Red Circle Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.07 10:54:00 - [38] Supported "This wise man observed that wealth is a tool of freedom. But the pursuit of wealth is the way to slavery."
William Idoru	Posted - 2009.11.09 05:10:00 - [39] Edited by: William Idoru on 09/11/2009 05:10:43 Supported. I've always thought that salvaging should be an actual profession rather then what it is now (extra mission income or carebears griefing other carebears then making posts with words like "tears" in them.) Simple changes like these could go a long way to making that happen, load would be taken off the servers and the overall game experience would be improved for a majority of players. Or at least it would improve it for me, which is why I'm supporting it. Feel free to disagree. Edit: forgot to check the support box the first time.
Efrim Black Guardians of Misr	Posted - 2009.11.10 18:45:00 - [40] It hasn't been mentioned here yet, so I'll be the first... I'd like it to be easier to scan down Player wrecks. No matter where I am in the galaxy, players get popped. Being the first little scavenger on the scene would be very helpful. I mean I know this thread is primarily focused on mission wrecks, but I care more about scanning down t2 ship wrecks. XD
Temp Matar	Posted - 2009.11.12 21:37:00 - [41] making salvaging viable is the main point! I believe anything is viable when properly implemented. /bump!
Song Li MinmaTire Corporation LTD	Posted - 2009.11.13 01:03:00 - [42] As a missioner I support this. Make wrecks outside of deadspace scannable. Vote Song Li for CSM 4 http://www.eveonline.com/council/voting/
Damien Anders Gallente The Red Circle Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.16 22:53:00 - [43] This could use some more support as I do think it is an important issue and will improve the explorer as well the salvager profession. Together with the reduced requirements for Dominion this would be nice update for Dominion too. "This wise man observed that wealth is a tool of freedom. But the pursuit of wealth is the way to slavery."
Keitoshi Yamada Caldari MJOCO Botanical Entheogenics Division	Posted - 2009.11.17 02:19:00 - [44] Honestly, the only way I would accept this is if salvaging other people's wrecks flagged you as killable, like can flipping.
Dex Timor Forza Di Colpo	Posted - 2009.11.17 23:08:00 - [45] Supporting the idea and letting others discuss the details.
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.17 23:56:00 - [46] Edited by: Becq Starforged on 17/11/2009 23:57:24 Originally by: Garr Anders *Addendum .1* As commented by myself here: Make it so that deadspace areas cover the sig. radius of wrecks, so that wrecks in deadspace areas are impossible to scan down. Wrecks in open space (including former deadspace collapsed by the completion of a mission) would be treated normally. I made a slight revision to your proposal, and with that revision I would support your proposal. Damping the signature radius of wrecks would not be enough, as illustrated by the impact of a set of drones in use by a target being probed. Your suggestion, as written, would mean that pirates (or other hostiles) would no longer need a combat probe to probe mission-runners, which would be a ridiculous change to the system. -- Becq Starforged The Flame of Freedom Burns On!
Mara Rinn	Posted - 2009.11.18 01:17:00 - [47] Supporting discussion, but not supporting modification to reduce chance of probing wrecks in deadspace. Just make wrecks hard to find overall, so that it will be faster for a carebear tears hunter to simply scan for drones/ships. Folks who are genuinely only interested in "abandoned" wrecks can happily probe for wrecks. Then there's the issue of "abandoned" wrecks implying that wrecks are at some point in time "claimed". In most cases the mission runner will complete the mission then come back with a MWD-capable salvage boat - unless the wrecks have already been salvaged in-mission. Just leave out the discussion of "abandoned" wrecks, leave out the issue of intent with respect to wrecks (both from the mission runners who create them and the salvagers looking for them) and the outcome becomes clear: simply allow wrecks to be probed down, regardless of where they exist. Just make wrecks harder to probe than drones or ships (since both of those entities are active and must "logically" be easier to find), on the same order as wormholes or the higher-value gravimetric sites. I'd also make wrecks probable using core rather than combat probes, or perhaps they can be only detectable using deep space probes. But then, I'm also of the opinion that combat probes should only be able to probe ships and drones, so one has to make a decision about what they're looking for. The old system of quest/sifter/etc probes made life interesting for explorers. You had decisions to make, and those decisions would affect the outcome of your game. These days there is no decision - just deploy combat probes and start with the first "thing" you get a 100% resolution on. This is arcade style gameplay. Anyhow, I've probably ranted enough. [Aussie players: join channel ANZAC]
Garr Anders Minmatar Thukk U	Posted - 2010.01.11 11:49:00 - [48] In light of a new year and a bump of the salvage discussion in the general forum, I ll feel the need to bump this. I havent heared yet that the CSM took this up into one of their sheduled meetings, though I might have missed it. Song Li, as you posted here to bring it up, please dont forget this :D . ----- Garr Anders "The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
MP Rhianna	Posted - 2010.01.11 13:02:00 - [49] I support the following: 1) Wrecks can be scanned down with a Deep Space Scanner Probe (IE Astrometrics V required to find wrecks) 2) Wrecks can only be scanned down outside of deadspace areas, inside they are not. 3) Ideally I'd like an additional skill Rank 4-5 to narrow down wrecks but I don't see it happening w/o a special probe for this which I'd support. Scanning down space salvage should be a more specialized profession and the rewards should have more hurdles to overcome not less, while making it harder for everyone to scan out the wrecks as I suggest it distinguishes the professional salvager from the opportunist. Understand that once completed missions are turned in more salvage and loot will be readily available to anyone who trained the bare minimum to find it, so more modules/reprocessed minerals and salvage on the market. I think that should come with a cost of an extra skill to use a specialized probe in order to access this new bounty in space.
Garr Anders Minmatar Thukk U	Posted - 2010.01.12 09:31:00 - [50] Originally by: Song Li As a missioner I support this. Make wrecks outside of deadspace scannable. Vote Song Li for CSM 4 http://www.eveonline.com/council/voting/ With the next CMS meeting up and Song Li in the CSM Id like to grab the chance to remind Song Li of her support for this issue and to bring it to CCP. ----- Garr Anders "The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
Jalson	Posted - 2010.01.12 21:59:00 - [51] supported.
Greygal Sephray Industries	Posted - 2010.01.12 23:09:00 - [52] Anything that will move salvaging more towards a career, I'm for. Supported. Greygal
Calistai Huranu Gaping Axe Wound Promotions	Posted - 2010.01.18 00:35:00 - [53] Supported. This is a remarkebly fair way for it to go, as it stands the salvage profession is by far the best starting career path while still learning the game for any new player, and will teach them skill's that they'll use later in EVE too.
Ogogov	Posted - 2010.01.18 01:04:00 - [54] NOT supported - too many asshats blundering into missions already.
SickSeven Nova Aquilae	Posted - 2010.01.18 02:05:00 - [55] no reason not to.
Tason Hyena Minmatar Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.01.18 06:24:00 - [56] Not supported. You won't be able to tell whether or not the wreck is abandoned and the mission runner doesn't want it anyways, so chances are it would just be an easier way to ninja. It won't ease the relationship any. It may even make it worse by making it easier to scan down lower level sites, as well as hard to scan ships. Plus, it lets the ninja know when the missioner is gone to his salvage alt, giving him no chance to choose to respond at all. I'd rather see tools that make Salvaging non-confrontational, and help the mission runner. If we could salvage for them and get a cut, while saving them time, there's be a much better relationship. We need to be able to offer services as well. Maybe salvaging contracts could be offered, or some way of erecting a salvage container a neutral can dump stuff in and get instant payment. Making it easier to ninja though will not help.
Jin Nib Resplendent Knives	Posted - 2010.01.18 06:43:00 - [57] I always found it odd that wrecks weren't probe-able. This would also give access to wrecks that aren't necessarily mission generated which would be nice. If the type of wreck (small-large, elite, etc.) was kept secret until landing it would help keep things balanced as well. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
Garr Anders Minmatar Thukk U	Posted - 2010.01.18 10:10:00 - [58] Originally by: Tason Hyena You won't be able to tell whether or not the wreck is abandoned ... When a mission runner abandons a wreck it becomes blue with the last patch. A way to "drag" salvagers to these wrecks would be increasing the signature together with that thus making adandoned wrecks easier to scan down than those who are not abandoned Originally by: Tason Hyena .....so chances are it would just be an easier way to ninja. It won't ease the relationship any. .. It may even make it worse by making it easier to scan down lower level sites, as well as hard to scan ships. Should be covered by making deadspace covering the signature of wrecks thus making them more difficult to scan them down. Originally by: Tason Hyena I'd rather see tools that make Salvaging non-confrontational, and help the mission runner. If we could salvage for them and get a cut, while saving them time, there's be a much better relationship. We need to be able to offer services as well. Maybe salvaging contracts could be offered, or some way of erecting a salvage container a neutral can dump stuff in and get instant payment. That is a social problem not a technical one. And salvage was not meant to help the mission runner as stated by CCP. Further you already can make bookmarks of containers respectively wreck fields and contract them. Something to further strengthen this might be the option display the age of contracted bookmarks and their destination systems so the buyer of those bookmarks can see if he is within the 2hour despawn time and if the system is somewhat close to him. ----- Garr Anders "The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
Ti'anla	Posted - 2010.01.18 15:53:00 - [59] Edited by: Ti''anla on 18/01/2010 15:53:01 Definitely in support of this one, especially the idea of making Deep Space probes need Astrometrics III and Combat Scanners to need V. I mean really, between the fact that scanning down someone actively trying not to get found ought conceivably be harder than scanning down a massive anomaly, and the fact that Deep Space probes are a lot less useful than they were when initially implemented.. Well anyway, yea on both counts. Wrecks scan-able and all for all the above stated pros.
Tason Hyena Minmatar Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.01.18 16:42:00 - [60] Quote: When a mission runner abandons a wreck it becomes blue with the last patch. A way to "drag" salvagers to these wrecks would be increasing the signature together with that thus making adandoned wrecks easier to scan down than those who are not abandoned I have no problems with that, and would support it if it were limited to abandoned wrecks. But you have to ask, how many people will abandon them? I've done belt salvage, and most of the wrecks I come across are yellow, despite people being long gone and not coming back. Same with Militia gate salvage, despite t1 wrecks not even worth the time to salvage for them. Quote: Should be covered by making deadspace covering the signature of wrecks thus making them more difficult to scan them down. Not really, unless you make it so difficult as to be prohibitive. In which case it would be useless, see above. Quote: That is a social problem not a technical one. And salvage was not meant to help the mission runner as stated by CCP. Further you already can make bookmarks of containers respectively wreck fields and contract them. Something to further strengthen this might be the option display the age of contracted bookmarks and their destination systems so the buyer of those bookmarks can see if he is within the 2hour despawn time and if the system is somewhat close to him. Uh, what's the point then if Salvage is only designed to work one way? Currently its a one-sided proposition-a ninja salvager enriches himself. With tools both people can come out handily and maybe we wont have such rancor, and salvagers wont be seen as rats and thieves so much. If you are going to suggest a kludge like contracting bookmarks, why not just formalize it with a real salvage contract and make it less hassle? Stuff like this is just trying to use salvagers to act as a nerf to hisec mission runners, and it's annoying. If CCP wants to nerf them, have the guts and do so, don't put players in the position to do it.
Lu Korchow	Posted - 2010.01.18 17:16:00 - [61] +1 Supported
Herschel Yamamoto Agent-Orange	Posted - 2010.01.19 02:51:00 - [62] I can support this, yeah. One point though - you're wrong about scan probes. Deep space probes are an expanded version of combat probes, not of core, and as such the skill requirements are perfectly in line with where they should be.
Garr Anders Minmatar Thukk U	Posted - 2010.01.20 09:59:00 - [63] Originally by: "somebody" I still can't help but think about how badly this is going to screw low-sec/null-sec missioners. I can see your point, but your concerns do not hinder the proposal in principle but relate more toward the balancing of how hard/easy it should be to probe wrecks according to the different circumstances: wreck/can is in deadspace pocket wreck/can is in open space wreck/can is abandoned These have to be balanced vs: difficulty to scan a mission ship in a deadspace difficulty to scan a mission ship in open space IMHO the difficulty from easy to hard to scan down should be: abandoned wreck in open space wreck/can in open space mission ship in open space mission ship in deadspace pocket abandoned wreck/can in mission deadspace pocket wreck/can in deadspace pocket This should insure that it will not become easier to scan down ships in mission sites/deadspace pockets. ----- Garr Anders "The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
Anarius Faust Quality Control.	Posted - 2010.01.20 11:01:00 - [64] Supported. Would turn salvaging more into a real profession, instead of the only option to be a "salvager" being to grief mission runners. Abandoned ships being very easy to probe should provide a decent entry point for characters new to the profession/scanning.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.01.20 11:38:00 - [65] Edited by: Sokratesz on 20/01/2010 11:39:38 Wreck scanning supported, container scanning not* ! *As long as it doesn't become too easy to scan them, eg. if a missionrunner disposes of his wrecks by shooting them or salvaging them himself quickly after killing the NPC's he should not be probe-able. Want to test a supercap on SISI but don't have one?
Ezekiel Sulastin Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.01.20 14:09:00 - [66] Edited by: Ezekiel Sulastin on 20/01/2010 14:12:19 Really quickly, given how little time you have to get out of a mission/escalation once combat probes come out - and if you missed a wreck before you're out, congrats your site is compromised. At least you still have the option of shooting wrecks as you go. Thanks for screwing lowsec again, Garr.
D Lysergic	Posted - 2010.01.20 21:23:00 - [67] +1 for this (would still be nice to be able to shoot anyone that takes any salvage not abandoned)
Pian Shu Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Tread Alliance	Posted - 2010.01.20 23:13:00 - [68] I could support this if you suggested that wrecks could be probed using combat probes, but allowing them to be probed with core probes just presents too many problems. However, if you allow core probes to be used to find abandoned wrecks (wrecks that have been explicitly abandoned by the pilot who killed the rat), I could go for that too. However, this would make life very difficult for me. I make a habit of running missions in dangerous low-sec areas; often I have to leave the mission site to hide out while I'm being probed down -- if these guys could just probe my wrecks out, they'd do that and then wait for me to return. It would be the end of my low-sec missioning. I'd be very unhappy. I'd prefer only allowing abandoned wrecks to be probed and possibly automatically flagging wrecks as abandoned when a mission is completed.
Aloriana Jacques Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2010.01.21 00:25:00 - [69] I approve. - - - Aloriana Jacques - Skill Sheet
Havohej Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics	Posted - 2010.03.16 16:17:00 - [70] Supported. Lots of mission runners (including me) don't bother looting/salvaging, so there're massive L4 wreck fields (from missions like the various Extravaganzas and Blockades and Worlds Collides) just sitting there after we warp off and turn in the mission. Someone should be able to find that stuff before it despawns. Du'uma Fiisi is Recruiting
HeliosGal Caldari	Posted - 2010.03.17 13:21:00 - [71] how about this wrecks remain in space for 6 hours, after 2 hours all wrecks become abandoned and scannable - allows time for the owner to clean up, from 2-6 hours they are scannable for all, ( earlier if the owner immediately abandons them). Balanced all round Signature - CCP what this game needs is more variance in PVE aspects and a little bit less PVP focus, more content more varied level 1-4 missions more than just 10 per faction high sec low sec and 00
Casiella Truza Ecliptic Rift New Eden Research.	Posted - 2010.06.07 14:18:00 - [72] I don't know that I'm fully on-board with every detail of the proposal, but I do agree we should have a way to scan down wrecks themselves. Or perhaps the mission beacons? --
Captain Brownfinger	Posted - 2010.06.07 14:37:00 - [73] Edited by: Captain Brownfinger on 07/06/2010 14:37:53 Could we get the ability to scan anchored cans as well ? Even if they were the hardest things to scan and require more skills. I would love to go looking for peoples anchored can depots in wormhole space. Setup ambushes or blow up the cans and take whats inside. Edit: Wanted to add my thumbs up and support for this proposal.
Jowen Datloran Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2010.06.07 14:58:00 - [74] While I would like the Salvaging profession expanded in multiple ways, including with the ability to scan down wrecks, I would rather support a "dual wreck timer" approach. One timer (min 1 hour max 2) where wrecks would be unprobeable until it had deteriorated enough for probes to find it, and a second timer until the wreck would disappear completely, lost in the void of space (like the current timer do). ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute - EVE Online Lorebook
Cerpn Taxt Minmatar LDK	Posted - 2010.06.07 15:34:00 - [75] No go for this.. I don't want my escalations in 0.0 to be scanned by some hostiles passing by and you can not choose the place of escalation.. Maybe only abandoned wrecks (blue) should be scan-able? hmm..
Rita's Catastrophy	Posted - 2010.07.16 07:36:00 - [76] NOOOOOO way... I do believe that u dont give a @@@@ about "salvager" profession, U just want to scan down the unprobable ships like T3 now lol
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.07.16 08:59:00 - [77] So the few brave people doing for some reason missions in low sec should now also be able to get probed down quickly by core scanner probes?
Chi Quan Bibkor Enterprises	Posted - 2010.07.16 11:24:00 - [78] not really thought out, not supported. plus, ninjas have it easy enough already. ---- Ceterum censeo blasters need some tracking love
Marcus Gideon Federal Defense Operations	Posted - 2010.07.16 12:37:00 - [79] Edited by: Marcus Gideon on 16/07/2010 12:39:42 I've thought these same things for a long time. - I'd make the first wreck in each "room" spawn a Mag site beacon. That's the same sig as Salvage profession sites. - Agree that deadspace should mask the sigs, so it's harder to probe down an active mission runner or their current battlefield. But you can easily locate a discarded battlefield if no one salvaged it first. - I'd also change the mechanics, so wrecks are considered neutral. But the loot spawns in a corp affiliated jet can. That way anyone can tractor the wrecks, but only the proper owners can tractor the loot. As for the arguments of whether or not wrecks belong to the runner... a quote regarding the new Abandon Wrecks function. Originally by: CCP Incognito Robert Caldera you are missing the point. The Wrecks belong to the person who kill the rat. It is up to them to abandon them or not. If we wanted it so you had to claim them we would not have made it a crime to take from some else can. This feature was added specifically because a lot of people wanted a way to give loot rights to someone else in the case where they did not care who loots the wrecks. All those wrecks belong to the person who killed them, regardless if it is 10 min after they kill it or 2 seconds before the wreck despawns. It is their wreck. If they chose to allow you to loot/ salvage the wreck is their choice. If they are nowhere in sight then steal the stuff and fly away. Just be aware of the consequences stealing from someoneÆs wreck. If they are nice enough to abandon the wreck then you can take from it without being flagged a criminal. I highlight for emphasis
Ronan Connor	Posted - 2010.07.16 13:32:00 - [80] What would make sense is to be able scan down abbandoned cans and wreck's. As for the so called ninja salvaging... if you start a career in this business you should do you homework properly and learn all the skills. If you have done so you will be able to find stuff pretty easily. This form of carebear-salvaging is laughable.
rootimus maximus School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2010.07.16 17:12:00 - [81]
nutsy MCballsonchin	Posted - 2010.07.22 14:07:00 - [82] i love the idear of scanning wrecks with combat probes. the issue i have is people scanning wrecks to get to the mission runners inside NOTE: im not a mission runner i think that wrecks should become scannable after the site witch they are in has despawned they would have a low sig radious to ensure that they are not insta scanned. on top of that the sig radious could increas with the number of wrecks with in a 500km radious of the sentral most wreck. thus making abandoned mission sites easyer to scan than lone wrecks
DeMichael Crimson Republic University	Posted - 2010.07.22 20:52:00 - [83] I agree, wrecks in an active deadspace should remain unscannable until the deadspace area is completed and despawns. If the mission runner wants to lay claim to the wrecks for salvage, they need to keep the mission area active. As for increased signature per amount of wrecks in the area or separate signal strengths for different class wrecks, no way. That's where the random aspect is. Area could have 1 Frigate wreck or 50 Battleship wrecks.

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