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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Pooed Unit
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Posted - 2004.11.03 22:13:00 -
[1]
I have just read this article by Richard Bartle, the creator of Mud1. In it he explains why MMOGs are designed with the acquisition of new players in mind and the detremental effect that this has on the gaming experience. A very interesting read.
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Pooed Unit
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Posted - 2004.11.03 22:13:00 -
[2]
I have just read this article by Richard Bartle, the creator of Mud1. In it he explains why MMOGs are designed with the acquisition of new players in mind and the detremental effect that this has on the gaming experience. A very interesting read.
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Ecchus
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Posted - 2004.11.03 22:38:00 -
[3]
You beat me to it.
==========
Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering whale; to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee..
- Melville.
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Ecchus
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Posted - 2004.11.03 22:38:00 -
[4]
You beat me to it.
==========
Towards thee I roll, thou all-destroying but unconquering whale; to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee..
- Melville.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.11.03 22:41:00 -
[5]
This is exactly why we had the radical changes to frigates, cruiser, and battleship balance about 8 months ago.
Frigates were made exceptionally useful so that new players would not feel like they were being left behind.
It's a good idea but it's a pity the the grown-up-player stuff (Exodus) took so long to arrive.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.11.03 22:41:00 -
[6]
This is exactly why we had the radical changes to frigates, cruiser, and battleship balance about 8 months ago.
Frigates were made exceptionally useful so that new players would not feel like they were being left behind.
It's a good idea but it's a pity the the grown-up-player stuff (Exodus) took so long to arrive.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2004.11.03 23:21:00 -
[7]
Test
MOOrovingian  "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
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MOOstradamus
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Posted - 2004.11.03 23:21:00 -
[8]
Test
MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
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Fester Addams
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Posted - 2004.11.03 23:25:00 -
[9]
Interesting article, sadly I share the authors pessimism as well as his optimism.
The one thing I wish MMOG developers would do is learn from the MUD/MUSH people, the MMOG's are currently moving through the same development process as they did, by looking into where the MUD/MUSH games went quite a few steps on the evolutionary ladder could be bypassed.
But... like I said, I share his pessimism and optimism...
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Fester Addams
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Posted - 2004.11.03 23:25:00 -
[10]
Interesting article, sadly I share the authors pessimism as well as his optimism.
The one thing I wish MMOG developers would do is learn from the MUD/MUSH people, the MMOG's are currently moving through the same development process as they did, by looking into where the MUD/MUSH games went quite a few steps on the evolutionary ladder could be bypassed.
But... like I said, I share his pessimism and optimism...
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Bared Bel'Medar
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Posted - 2004.11.04 00:56:00 -
[11]
 Originally by: Joshua Calvert
This is exactly why we had the radical changes to frigates, cruiser, and battleship balance about 8 months ago.
Frigates were made exceptionally useful so that new players would not feel like they were being left behind.
It's a good idea but it's a pity the the grown-up-player stuff (Exodus) took so long to arrive.
josh, i keep reading your sig and cant help but think "Hes a 40 year old virgin. Damn, I'm glad I'm not Josh!"
I am Jack's broken moral compass. I am Jack's STILL trapped in eve limbo. maybe not for much longer... |
Bared Bel'Medar
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Posted - 2004.11.04 00:56:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
This is exactly why we had the radical changes to frigates, cruiser, and battleship balance about 8 months ago.
Frigates were made exceptionally useful so that new players would not feel like they were being left behind.
It's a good idea but it's a pity the the grown-up-player stuff (Exodus) took so long to arrive.
josh, i keep reading your sig and cant help but think "Hes a 40 year old virgin. Damn, I'm glad I'm not Josh!"
I am Jack's broken moral compass. I am Jack's STILL trapped in eve limbo. maybe not for much longer... |
Noriath
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Posted - 2004.11.04 01:08:00 -
[13]
I don't think most games are really supposed to run forever, just because inovation is such an important part of atracting players there simply comes the point where working towards a shutdown is potentially more profitable then hanging on to a small hardcore fanbase...
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Noriath
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Posted - 2004.11.04 01:08:00 -
[14]
I don't think most games are really supposed to run forever, just because inovation is such an important part of atracting players there simply comes the point where working towards a shutdown is potentially more profitable then hanging on to a small hardcore fanbase...
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Kaladryn
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Posted - 2004.11.04 03:58:00 -
[15]
This guys is fully BSing, he thinks he is some kind of phycological know it all, and has 'figured out' human nature in games. His reasonings can't even be called crude in most cases. There is just enough truth nearby so that he at first SEEMS to have something to say, examine closer however, and becomes a hollow and disappointing read.
There are some major issues in MMOG development, the "next wave" of MMOGs will really show this: watch how the PvE ones discover that without a backbone of PvP, the "luster" of an MMOG is lost... The exception will be D&D Online which will fare well even without PvP. I could go on but it's already boring and you are bored if you read this far....
Kaladryn |
Kaladryn
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Posted - 2004.11.04 03:58:00 -
[16]
This guys is fully BSing, he thinks he is some kind of phycological know it all, and has 'figured out' human nature in games. His reasonings can't even be called crude in most cases. There is just enough truth nearby so that he at first SEEMS to have something to say, examine closer however, and becomes a hollow and disappointing read.
There are some major issues in MMOG development, the "next wave" of MMOGs will really show this: watch how the PvE ones discover that without a backbone of PvP, the "luster" of an MMOG is lost... The exception will be D&D Online which will fare well even without PvP. I could go on but it's already boring and you are bored if you read this far....
Kaladryn |
CmdoColin
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Posted - 2004.11.04 05:00:00 -
[17]
Edited by: CmdoColin on 04/11/2004 05:05:16
Kaladryn, its Richard Bartle - he does know everything. He effectively invented multiplayer computer gaming. It was actually Roy Trubshaw in 1979 who realised that there was a ***** (haX0r!!!!) to the system where different users could manipulate the same files at the same time. Hence multiplayer gaming was born. A year later the uni was wired up to the net and it went global. As the bloke's been doing MMOG's (or text based muds as they were known then) for over 25 years - I'm guessing he's got a right to be a bit of a "know it all" Oh yeah - he's also got a BSc (1st class) Computer Science - the highest ever from Essex, and a PhD in Articifical Intelligence
I could rattle on about the entire history at a British university (Essex) where it was done. I could tell you about the fact they could only play between 2am and 6am (a tradition we continue to day) because they had to use the universities systems during low use periods. But I won't
He does have a point to a degree. Levels - they are the spawn of the devil, and yet everyone creams themselves over them. Innovation - ohh look WoW has got them...
No I don't personally agree with everthing he says - but he's certainly earnt the right to say it.
EDIT: why on earth is that word blocked???
Audita et altera pars |
CmdoColin
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Posted - 2004.11.04 05:00:00 -
[18]
Edited by: CmdoColin on 04/11/2004 05:05:16
Kaladryn, its Richard Bartle - he does know everything. He effectively invented multiplayer computer gaming. It was actually Roy Trubshaw in 1979 who realised that there was a ***** (haX0r!!!!) to the system where different users could manipulate the same files at the same time. Hence multiplayer gaming was born. A year later the uni was wired up to the net and it went global. As the bloke's been doing MMOG's (or text based muds as they were known then) for over 25 years - I'm guessing he's got a right to be a bit of a "know it all" Oh yeah - he's also got a BSc (1st class) Computer Science - the highest ever from Essex, and a PhD in Articifical Intelligence
I could rattle on about the entire history at a British university (Essex) where it was done. I could tell you about the fact they could only play between 2am and 6am (a tradition we continue to day) because they had to use the universities systems during low use periods. But I won't
He does have a point to a degree. Levels - they are the spawn of the devil, and yet everyone creams themselves over them. Innovation - ohh look WoW has got them...
No I don't personally agree with everthing he says - but he's certainly earnt the right to say it.
EDIT: why on earth is that word blocked???
Audita et altera pars |
CmdoColin
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Posted - 2004.11.04 05:17:00 -
[19]
PS - MUDs had PvP from the start - as has already been said MMOG's could learn alot from them...
Audita et altera pars |
CmdoColin
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Posted - 2004.11.04 05:17:00 -
[20]
PS - MUDs had PvP from the start - as has already been said MMOG's could learn alot from them...
Audita et altera pars |
DeFood
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Posted - 2004.11.04 07:25:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kaladryn
wrote some crap
Its really simple. On any MMO related subject, if your view differs from that of Bartle's, you are wrong.
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DeFood
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Posted - 2004.11.04 07:25:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Kaladryn
wrote some crap
Its really simple. On any MMO related subject, if your view differs from that of Bartle's, you are wrong.
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Directive
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Posted - 2004.11.04 07:57:00 -
[23]
Originally by: DeFood
Originally by: Kaladryn
wrote some crap
Its really simple. On any MMO related subject, if your view differs from that of Bartle's, you are wrong.
Just because the guy's been there since the start, it doesn't make him omniscient, much less omnipotent.
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Directive
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Posted - 2004.11.04 07:57:00 -
[24]
Originally by: DeFood
Originally by: Kaladryn
wrote some crap
Its really simple. On any MMO related subject, if your view differs from that of Bartle's, you are wrong.
Just because the guy's been there since the start, it doesn't make him omniscient, much less omnipotent.
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kurg
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Posted - 2004.11.04 08:06:00 -
[25]
Im not sure I agree with his 'doom of mmo' perspective, but he certainly have more experience than me so...
But he definately have some points that relate directly to eve:
*travelling, people (not just newbs) want to be able to cross the universe in a few minutes, this dilutes the illusion of a huge world, travelling great distances should take time.
*the unhurtable character, in eve your character can never really be hurt, even if you forget to get a fitting clone (unthinkable) you dont really loose much.
*default/free insurance, in the absence of being able to edge past another char by 'hurting' it, you will try to bleed it financially but free insurance makes this nearly impossible.
Hopefully exodus will fix some of these since you will at least be able to hold (and more importantly loose) 'land' erm space.
even the paranoid has real enemies...
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kurg
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Posted - 2004.11.04 08:06:00 -
[26]
Im not sure I agree with his 'doom of mmo' perspective, but he certainly have more experience than me so...
But he definately have some points that relate directly to eve:
*travelling, people (not just newbs) want to be able to cross the universe in a few minutes, this dilutes the illusion of a huge world, travelling great distances should take time.
*the unhurtable character, in eve your character can never really be hurt, even if you forget to get a fitting clone (unthinkable) you dont really loose much.
*default/free insurance, in the absence of being able to edge past another char by 'hurting' it, you will try to bleed it financially but free insurance makes this nearly impossible.
Hopefully exodus will fix some of these since you will at least be able to hold (and more importantly loose) 'land' erm space.
even the paranoid has real enemies...
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.11.04 08:47:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Bared Bel'Medar
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
This is exactly why we had the radical changes to frigates, cruiser, and battleship balance about 8 months ago.
Frigates were made exceptionally useful so that new players would not feel like they were being left behind.
It's a good idea but it's a pity the the grown-up-player stuff (Exodus) took so long to arrive.
josh, i keep reading your sig and cant help but think "Hes a 40 year old virgin. Damn, I'm glad I'm not Josh!"
That is what you get for thinking, Bared. I'd cease immediately and go back to your old ways
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.11.04 08:47:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Bared Bel'Medar
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
This is exactly why we had the radical changes to frigates, cruiser, and battleship balance about 8 months ago.
Frigates were made exceptionally useful so that new players would not feel like they were being left behind.
It's a good idea but it's a pity the the grown-up-player stuff (Exodus) took so long to arrive.
josh, i keep reading your sig and cant help but think "Hes a 40 year old virgin. Damn, I'm glad I'm not Josh!"
That is what you get for thinking, Bared. I'd cease immediately and go back to your old ways
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
JP Beauregard
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Posted - 2004.11.04 09:15:00 -
[29]
Interesting read, even though Bartle is in soapbox mode. There is one issue he doesn't address, though, and I so wish he would: in the current crop of MMOGs, everything about the game is treated as a technical, feature design or marketing issue. The concept of MMPOGs as a social space gets the odd - largely uninformed - discussion here and there but I see next to no impact on game design... |
JP Beauregard
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Posted - 2004.11.04 09:15:00 -
[30]
Interesting read, even though Bartle is in soapbox mode. There is one issue he doesn't address, though, and I so wish he would: in the current crop of MMOGs, everything about the game is treated as a technical, feature design or marketing issue. The concept of MMPOGs as a social space gets the odd - largely uninformed - discussion here and there but I see next to no impact on game design... |
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