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The limits of stargates - A brief refresher

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Xen Gin Silurian Operations	Posted - 2009.11.06 00:38:00 - [31] Edited by: Xen Gin on 06/11/2009 00:37:54 The major floor of stargates is that they use Constellations as identifying locations, but constellations change depending on which planet you are, and over time. In this way stargates could never work. *Oh wait this isn't OOPE. ## You got that? Right I'll be back in approximately 300 seconds to retort! ##
Bumblefck Kerensky Initiatives Beer and Smoke Federation	Posted - 2009.11.06 00:42:00 - [32] Originally by: Xen Gin The major floor of stargates is pretty cool - but not as awesome as the grand piano! ?
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.11.06 03:12:00 - [33] Originally by: Horza Gobochul Originally by: Korizan Edited by: Korizan on 05/11/2009 22:38:43 Welcome to the FICTION portion of a SCI-FI MMO. Welcome to the portion where you are unable to comprehend the difference between FICTIONAL and INCONSISTENT. Welcome to Science Fiction. Where Plot has veto power over Consistency and Realism. In fact Plot has a get-out-of-jail free card for those rare (otherwise know as 'extremely common') occasions when it needs to brutally **** and murder Consistency and Realism. Veal, murder. Baby Carrots, healthy snack. Food hypocrisy at work.
Sader Rykane Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate	Posted - 2009.11.06 06:27:00 - [34] Just pointing out that while not letting capital ships jump into high sec may make sense... How can that reasoning be applied to 0.0 where Carriers STILL cannot use stargates and these areas are supposed to have no NPC (empire) sov. Sig Gallery is currently down: Contact me ingame for prices.
Neesa Corrinne Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.11.06 06:40:00 - [35] I would have thought that the use of Newtonian Physics in a weightless vacuum would have been a more pressing concern for someone hellbent on realism. There are dozens of examples where reality has to be bent in order to provide a more enjoyable gaming experience for all involved. What CCP doesn't want to have are a bunch of Carriers / Dreads sitting outside of Jita suicide ganking freighters with hundreds of billions of ISK worth of products inside them. What's the loss of a less-than-one-billion ISK carrier / dread if you can take down a freighter with 20 times the value worth of cargo? It's things like this that make bending rules necessary. ---------------------------------
SlayerOfArgus Gallente The Industrial Federation	Posted - 2009.11.06 07:20:00 - [36] While the LOL factor would be in fact completely amazing if this were to happen, it's just not possible. It's the same reason that there are no CONCORD class ships larger than a BS: the gates aren't made for that and they don't want carriers or dreads kicking people around. Think about it. Ten dreads decide to pop in jita and destroy as many freighters as they can. Yeah not a good idea. ALTHOUGH I do kinda wish this could happen because I would laugh sooooooo hard watching a freighter getting taken down by a carrier or dread. And I still don't think that allowing the use of a cyno gate to let them come in empire is a good idea anyways. It would be bad if a lot of dreads got inside a system and just started attacking all that they could but it could help if there was a corp that had multiple POS's in empire and they used the caps to take it down. I gotta admit that would be kinda cool. P.S. Is there any ship that can haul a cap ship when it is packaged?
Isilwen Nightfall Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.11.06 07:39:00 - [37] Originally by: Sader Rykane Just pointing out that while not letting capital ships jump into high sec may make sense... How can that reasoning be applied to 0.0 where Carriers STILL cannot use stargates and these areas are supposed to have no NPC (empire) sov. This. It's clear that the problem with jumping must be found in the jump drive of the capital itself. It is simply -not made- to be compatible with the technology of gates.
Horza Gobochul Caldari Broski Enterprises No Fun Allowed	Posted - 2009.11.06 09:05:00 - [38] Originally by: Neesa Corrinne I would have thought that the use of Newtonian Physics in a weightless vacuum would have been a more pressing concern for someone hellbent on realism. There are dozens of examples where reality has to be bent in order to provide a more enjoyable gaming experience for all involved. What CCP doesn't want to have are a bunch of Carriers / Dreads sitting outside of Jita suicide ganking freighters with hundreds of billions of ISK worth of products inside them. What's the loss of a less-than-one-billion ISK carrier / dread if you can take down a freighter with 20 times the value worth of cargo? It's things like this that make bending rules necessary. If you check my post, you will see that nowhere did I mention realism. Realism is irrelevant in this context and I did address this in two of my replies already. I completely understand the want to keep Captials out of hi-sec and explicitely said so in my original post, so the most elegant and simple solution to this problem would be to ban industrial ships from hi-sec.
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.11.06 09:18:00 - [39] Originally by: Horza Gobochul so the most elegant and simple solution to this problem would be to ban industrial ships from hi-sec. No, the simple solution would require there to be a problem to solve — there isn't one. Allowing freighters into highsec but not combat capitals does not give give certain players an advantage over others since you're talking about two completely separate roles. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Scouteye Locasta Tactical	Posted - 2009.11.06 09:21:00 - [40] Have you actualy thought about the implecations for making things 100% "real" in a game? wtf would be the fun in that? How about when you get podded, a small wire that runs from your PC to your brain (ú24.99 from your local CCP store) puts 25000 volts though you and you turn into goo on your seat. Now THATS realisum!
Lui Kai Better Than You	Posted - 2009.11.06 09:24:00 - [41] Edited by: Lui Kai on 06/11/2009 09:25:50 I, too, dislike unreal physics. In addition to lowsec only industrial ships, I want to see the immediate removal of: warping (I will settle for finding a way to simulate time dilation effects), acceleration "topping out" at anything below light speed, chat channels, cloning out-of-system, all these planets, moons, and stations that refuse to move in their orbit, respawning of rats or asteroids, the range limitation on lasers, and anything else that sacrifices realism for fun. Afterall, Eve is meant to be a 100% true-to-life space sim, competing only with Orbiter. After we get the required 72 internet signatures, I expect this issue to be assigned its own scrum team. Possibly two. ----------------
Jagga Spikes Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.11.06 09:26:00 - [42] Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 06/11/2009 09:25:54 Originally by: Horza Gobochul ... If you check my post, you will see that nowhere did I mention realism. Realism is irrelevant in this context and I did address this in two of my replies already. I completely understand the want to keep Captials out of hi-sec and explicitely said so in my original post, so the most elegant and simple solution to this problem would be to ban industrial ships from hi-sec. if the realism in irrelevant, why do you insist on removing capital industrials from high-sec based on physical measurement? besides, mass/volume stats of most items in game are based on game design needs, and have very little to do with actual model size.
Lanade Gohsa	Posted - 2009.11.06 09:35:00 - [43] Edited by: Lanade Gohsa on 06/11/2009 09:35:01
Horza Gobochul Caldari Broski Enterprises No Fun Allowed	Posted - 2009.11.06 09:43:00 - [44] Originally by: Jagga Spikes Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 06/11/2009 09:25:54 Originally by: Horza Gobochul ... If you check my post, you will see that nowhere did I mention realism. Realism is irrelevant in this context and I did address this in two of my replies already. I completely understand the want to keep Captials out of hi-sec and explicitely said so in my original post, so the most elegant and simple solution to this problem would be to ban industrial ships from hi-sec. if the realism in irrelevant, why do you insist on removing capital industrials from high-sec based on physical measurement? besides, mass/volume stats of most items in game are based on game design needs, and have very little to do with actual model size. How often do I have to repeat myself? The issue is not a matter of realism but consistency. It is perfectly fine to have an in-game universe with fictional laws of physics. It is only a problem if these laws contradict themselves. Within the Eve universe the are two contradictory systems of physics. One applies only to carebears and one applies only to combat pilots, for the sole purpose of giving the former group an unfair advantage.
David Grogan Gallente Final Conflict UK Warped Aggression	Posted - 2009.11.06 09:44:00 - [45] Edited by: David Grogan on 06/11/2009 09:44:45 you also forgot that the orca can also carry 2x fully fitted hulks with ammo loaded into each of their cargo holds which should take it's mass upto 3x that of a carrier SIG: if my message has spelling errors its cos i fail at typing properly :P
Primnproper	Posted - 2009.11.06 09:50:00 - [46] Originally by: Khemul Zula Originally by: Horza Gobochul Originally by: Korizan Edited by: Korizan on 05/11/2009 22:38:43 Welcome to the FICTION portion of a SCI-FI MMO. Welcome to the portion where you are unable to comprehend the difference between FICTIONAL and INCONSISTENT. Welcome to Science Fiction. Where Plot has veto power over Consistency and Realism. In fact Plot has a get-out-of-jail free card for those rare (otherwise know as 'extremely common') occasions when it needs to brutally ** and murder Consistency and Realism. Good SciFi manages to be both fanastic and consistant, sadly the eve universe often does not. ... Originally by:** CCP Ytterbium ...we do not want to nerf it on that aspect since it is supposed to be part of a sandbox game to adapt a ship outside its original purpose.
Tippia Raddick Explorations	Posted - 2009.11.06 09:53:00 - [47] Originally by: Horza Gobochul The issue is not a matter of realism but consistency. It is perfectly fine to have an in-game universe with fictional laws of physics. It is only a problem if these laws contradict themselves. But there's nothing in the fictional laws of physics in EVE that is contradictory — the limitations you speak of are not of a physics nature. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Some Advisor	Posted - 2009.11.06 10:24:00 - [48] Originally by: Cypherous Here's an easy answer, each item is sent through individually stargate atlantis.. i roughly remember... first season, mckay in space, stuck on an open wormhole gate-ring, thruster broken. he puts some ppl trough the front to save them in the stream. somewhere along the line it got explained that the stuff gets send in "packets" and only when the final packet arrives (buffer and stuff) then the whole thing gets spit out. coudl also be one of the earlier stargate sg-1 episodes though :P
Jagga Spikes Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.11.06 12:16:00 - [49] Edited by: Jagga Spikes on 06/11/2009 12:19:18 Originally by: Horza Gobochul ... How often do I have to repeat myself? The issue is not a matter of realism but consistency. It is perfectly fine to have an in-game universe with fictional laws of physics. It is only a problem if these laws contradict themselves. Within the Eve universe the are two contradictory systems of physics. One applies only to carebears and one applies only to combat pilots, for the sole purpose of giving the former group an unfair advantage. game is (or at least tries to be) consistent with intentions of developers. if devs wanted shuttle not be able to jump through stargate, it would be entirely consistent within game. what you are asking for is simulation of physical properties; reasons why; laws. there is just one law in eve. devs want it so. and devs want capitals out of high-sec, and orca everywhere, because they think capitals affect high-sec negatively, while orca doesn't. while it's perfectly fine for you to ask for orca to be removed from high-sec, because you think it causes undesirable effects on game play (which you should prove, of course), it is NOT fine to ask orca to be removed from high-sec, just because it is classed as capital ship, and other capital ships are banned. let me show you an example that i have to get over each time i play: frigates, length 50-60m, volume ~10,000 (2,500 packed), cargo ~160 cruisers, length 200-400m, volume ~100,000 (10,000 packed), cargo ~320 battleship, length 800-1600m, volume ~450,000 (50,000 packed), cargo ~480 are these numbers consistent? from realistic ("laws of physics") point of view, no. these are just mess of guesstimated numbers. even length, while "accurate", is just guesstimated, and not result on physical relation that come from consequences of spaceship construction. but from game design point of view, yes. these numbers make sense, because they affect game in desirable ways which are consistent with game design intentions. length emphasizes size difference between classes, and volume/cargo determines what can be transported. note that, while some devs declare intentions to make EVE a "space simulation", i doubt we will see it any time soon, if ever. personally, i'll take fun gameplay over consistency with arbitrary (or real) laws of physics. so there you go. if you can prove that orca has similar undesirable effect on high-sec as other capital ships, i'm certain devs and players will support you.
Tiny Tove	Posted - 2009.11.06 12:55:00 - [50] I don't understand the RP excuses when we saw cynos and Concord getting a shoeing from Nyds in Yulai at the start of Empyrean age. Try, CCP didn't have a script at the beginning, and they mess up the storyline worse than Star Trek writers, simply to accomodate the requirement for making more money. The Orca is an abomination and has no place in the Eve of two years ago or earlier, but since the Steam community started ponying up the dollars things have changed. Hilmar wants a yacht with a helipad on it and a limitless supply of Zoom ice lollies, and we have to suffer for it watching endless impervious mining ops and unscannable AFK haulers going on with their days. --- WTB: Unwritten Forum Rules and list of posters you're not allowed to Report.
Zerakix Minmatar LEAP Corp	Posted - 2009.11.06 13:08:00 - [51] Originally by: Isilwen Nightfall Originally by: Sader Rykane Just pointing out that while not letting capital ships jump into high sec may make sense... How can that reasoning be applied to 0.0 where Carriers STILL cannot use stargates and these areas are supposed to have no NPC (empire) sov. This. It's clear that the problem with jumping must be found in the jump drive of the capital itself. It is simply -not made- to be compatible with the technology of gates. Simple answer is simple. Who ever built the jump gate built in a lock out for combat capital ships. Last I checked only NPCs can build jump gates. I fail.
Lyn Kishin	Posted - 2009.11.06 13:21:00 - [52] Originally by: Tiny Tove The Orca is an abomination and has no place in the Eve of two years ago or earlier, but since the Steam community started ponying up the dollars things have changed. Hilmar wants a yacht with a helipad on it and a limitless supply of Zoom ice lollies, and we have to suffer for it watching endless impervious mining ops and unscannable AFK haulers going on with their days. u mad?
SpaceOddis	Posted - 2009.11.06 13:26:00 - [53] EVE Online is the a great game. I love playing this game, it gives me different feel than real life.
My Postman	Posted - 2009.11.06 13:32:00 - [54] Originally by: Scouteye Have you actualy thought about the implecations for making things 100% "real" in a game? wtf would be the fun in that? How about when you get podded, a small wire that runs from your PC to your brain (ú24.99 from your local CCP store) puts 25000 volts though you and you turn into goo on your seat. Now THATS realisum! Damn! I fell off my chair in office loughing. Compadres thinking of me going nuts. Edit: I love this thread - two pages for exactly NOTHING!
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.11.06 15:11:00 - [55] Originally by: Horza Gobochul Within the Eve universe the are two contradictory systems of physics. One applies only to carebears and one applies only to combat pilots, for the sole purpose of giving the former group an unfair advantage. Agreed. Freighters are overpowered. They are in desperate need of a nerf. Veal, murder. Baby Carrots, healthy snack. Food hypocrisy at work.
Tristan Acoma Caldari Dirah Dominion Dirah Dominion.	Posted - 2009.11.06 15:53:00 - [56] Originally by: Lui Kai Edited by: Lui Kai on 06/11/2009 09:25:50 I, too, dislike unreal physics. In addition to lowsec only industrial ships, I want to see the immediate removal of: warping (I will settle for finding a way to simulate time dilation effects), acceleration "topping out" at anything below light speed, chat channels, cloning out-of-system, all these planets, moons, and stations that refuse to move in their orbit, respawning of rats or asteroids, the range limitation on lasers, and anything else that sacrifices realism for fun. Afterall, Eve is meant to be a 100% true-to-life space sim, competing only with Orbiter. Not to mention all the autopilots warping through planets/moons/stations/what have you. Ships that hit planets should go splat and spread their contents all over the local planetary system. That'll teach those cargo-hauling carebears a lesson for using their autopilot! Even better if things orbit and ships go splat, each warp engage will require careful calculation lest your nice shiny new faction BS go splat
Some Advisor	Posted - 2009.11.06 16:34:00 - [57] Originally by: Tristan Acoma Not to mention all the autopilots warping through planets/moons/stations/what have you. in warp things are different :)
Horza Gobochul Caldari Broski Enterprises No Fun Allowed	Posted - 2009.11.06 16:57:00 - [58] The feedback in this thread has encouraged me to bring this matter to the attention of the CSM delegates. We'll see what they think of this issue.
Dretzle Omega Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.11.06 17:00:00 - [59] Originally by: Horza Gobochul The feedback in this thread has encouraged me to bring this matter to the attention of the CSM delegates. We'll see what they think of this issue. So.... because everyone disagrees with you, you thought the community and CSM would back you up? Okay.
Beckoner Venhatha	Posted - 2009.11.06 17:25:00 - [60] Perhaps there is a function of distribution of mass involved And isn't cargo stored in a compressed space? (which, i guess make it easier for a gate to deal with?)

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