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Lady Spank
Amarr
Sekret Kool Klubb
   |
Posted - 2009.11.06 16:43:00 -
[1]
It's true.
I was checking up on my favourite group in eve and found they have expanded from friends of Sharuveil to friends of eve.
I've always felt too many activities in eve get branded as 'piracy' and recently the prevalence of high sec griefing getting coverage in C+P was getting to boiling point.
Well Delilah knows this too ♥
 Quote:
Surf through the EVE Crime and Punishment Forum, and youÆll find a variety of threads about anti-piracy. While the informational and interpretive quality of these threads is generally poor, a common refrain is that anti-pirates are pre-pirates. Put another way, those who start out as anti-pirates are soon tempted to the dark side and become pirates themselves.
So today, I am here to announce that IÆve become a pirate. Yarr!
Just kiddingà.
Seriously though, one person and a corp from our days in Sharuveil have indeed switched sides, going from anti-piracy to piracy.
In the first instance, the person found a fun corp in her timezone and language preference. Most of their work is null-sec. I cannot be sure, but IÆm not convinced this is piracy at all. Instead it sounds like straight-up pvp. Too much of EVEÆs pvp is lumped under the term piracy. Pirates are those who exploit others as a way of life in EVE. There are mercenaries, police forces, warlord fleets, etc. all of whom complicate who is a pirate and what constitutes piracy.
The second instance involves the Hitchhikers Alliance (HIKE). The military backbone of that alliance was Broadside, led by Ael Ra, a superb tactician and fleet commander. The Friends flew with members of Broadside in actions against pirates in Sharuveil.
Broadside left the Hitchhikers to become a mercenary corp. The alliance collapsed shortly thereafter. It did so in the face of griefing by the Deconites, a coalition of pirates from the system of Decon. It was the Deconites who were our pirate foes in Sharuveil. Their main alliance is MeatSausage Express. Their main business seems to be griefing empire-based, non-military corps. Those of you new to this blog can read more about MeatSausage in the posts below.
Well to my surprise, Broadside recently joined MeatSausage Express. I discovered this while updating my personal security standings. Now I donÆt know why Broadside joined with Meatsausage. IÆll send them an evemail and ask if they would like to share their reasonings with us. It may be interesting. Still, I must confess that EVE makes for strange bedfellows, and it saddens me to see Broadside take this route.
Cheers, Delilah
Have a nice weekend C+P. Will be joining you SOONtm 
The quality of my replies is directly related to the QQuality of the opÆs comments |
Mathilde D'Arc
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Posted - 2009.11.06 16:53:00 -
[2]
Oh dear. I think you have lost the plot.
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Lady Spank
Amarr
Sekret Kool Klubb
|
Posted - 2009.11.06 16:55:00 -
[3]
Whatever it was I probably didn't have it in the first place
The quality of my replies is directly related to the QQuality of the opÆs comments |
RedSplat
Noir.
|
Posted - 2009.11.06 17:20:00 -
[4]
Edited by: RedSplat on 06/11/2009 17:20:45
tl;dr
'Carebear takes Eve Online far too seriously and doesn't understand other playstyles'
EDIT: and no, that isn't meant to be offensive
Originally by: CCP Mitnal
I don't sleep.
I am always here.
Watching.
Waiting.
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The Crushah
Gallente
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
|
Posted - 2009.11.06 19:48:00 -
[5]
Broadside were a bunch of cool brosefs, and were a bunch of cool brosefs, so we decided "Hey! Lets be cool brosefs together!" and now were way too much cool brosef for the MeatSausage to handle.
Hitchhikers alliance was pretty funny. We had so many informants in that alliance we had to turn them away. Its amazing what noobs will do when you dangle a little money in their face.
Besides, I really consider myself a pre-proto-meta-pirate. Im still working on a proper definition, but it generally involves griefing carebears whilst wearing no pants 
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FunzzeR
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
|
Posted - 2009.11.06 20:41:00 -
[6]
Originally by: The Crushah
Broadside were a bunch of cool brosefs, and were a bunch of cool brosefs, so we decided "Hey! Lets be cool brosefs together!" and now were way too much cool brosef for the MeatSausage to handle.
Hitchhikers alliance was pretty funny. We had so many informants in that alliance we had to turn them away. Its amazing what noobs will do when you dangle a little money in their face.
Besides, I really consider myself a pre-proto-meta-pirate. Im still working on a proper definition, but it generally involves griefing carebears whilst wearing no pants
The Scottish Fold approves.
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Felix Jugo
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Posted - 2009.11.07 10:00:00 -
[7]
Originally by: The Crushah
...I really consider myself a pre-proto-meta-pirate.
You're in the early stages of, in a crude way, pillaging the concept of piracy itself?
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2009.11.07 17:33:00 -
[8]
I think the decision to be an anti-pirate or whatever they call it is no different than the decision to be a pirate.
You log in, and decide how to play the game.
It's only a problem when someone tries to force you to wear a puffy shirt in the real world.
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Lady Spank
Amarr
Sekret Kool Klubb
|
Posted - 2009.11.07 18:57:00 -
[9]
I choose to self harm ingame. It's funny rite.
The quality of my replies is directly related to the QQuality of the opÆs comments |
Nano Pope
|
Posted - 2009.11.08 05:41:00 -
[10]
Being an anti-pirate is a lifestyle choice, you shouldn't pity them. Some are just curious and move on from their childish flirtations into regular piracy but there are those who simply prefer to be that way. We should respect their non-traditional role, though they seem odd to us what is a true pirate but someone who defies convention. These anti-pirates don't want to be pirates, or carebears, but their own special thing and we should let them be proud of their alternative lifestlye choices. ANTI-PRIDE! |
Jones Bones
Beyond Divinity Inc
Beyond Virginity
|
Posted - 2009.11.08 08:30:00 -
[11]
A TL:DR would be nice for that useless wall of words.
===================
Go Bucks! |
Lana's Alt
Minmatar Republic Military Skool
|
Posted - 2009.11.08 08:48:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jones Bones
A TL:DR would be nice for that useless wall of words.
Stuff happened that wasn't thread worthy but someone made a thread about it, and then someone else made a thread about that.
Istvaan Shogaatsu: As with most such situations the answer is simple: rob them first. |
Lady Spank
Amarr
Sekret Kool Klubb
|
Posted - 2009.11.08 12:01:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Lana's Alt
Originally by: Jones Bones
A TL:DR would be nice for that useless wall of words.
Stuff happened that wasn't thread worthy but someone made a thread about it, and then someone else made a thread about that.
Wardec incoming tbh.
The quality of my replies is directly related to the QQuality of the opÆs comments |
Lana's Alt
Minmatar Republic Military Skool
|
Posted - 2009.11.08 12:10:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Lady Spank
Originally by: Lana's Alt
Originally by: Jones Bones
A TL:DR would be nice for that useless wall of words.
Stuff happened that wasn't thread worthy but someone made a thread about it, and then someone else made a thread about that.
Wardec incoming tbh.
For once I am proud to say... Bring it on.
Istvaan Shogaatsu: As with most such situations the answer is simple: rob them first. |
Der'Teufel Felsen
|
Posted - 2009.11.08 12:18:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Lana's Alt
Originally by: Lady Spank
Originally by: Lana's Alt
Originally by: Jones Bones
A TL:DR would be nice for that useless wall of words.
Stuff happened that wasn't thread worthy but someone made a thread about it, and then someone else made a thread about that.
Wardec incoming tbh.
For once I am proud to say... Bring it on.
 Can we have a 'Kool Skool' war thread plz!
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Delilah Wild
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Posted - 2010.01.20 15:00:00 -
[16]
Hello Everyone,
I want to thank Lady Spank for thinking of the Friends (http://friendsofeve.wordpress.com), and taking the time to reflect on a recent post about pirates.
Several thoughts to complement and extend those of Lady Spank. I should note that I am a student at Eve University, and nothing I say here represents the views or policies of that institution. I'm speaking on my own.
Piracy is a more complex phenomena than most people realize. Non-pirates tend to lump everything they don't like under piracy, while pirates tend to rationalize all pvp -- and EVE itself -- in terms of their 'life-style'. As someone who enjoys pvp but is adamantly anti-pirate, I think it is vital to maintain a distinction between the two.
Piracy is a choice, to be sure. It is not, however, a life-style choice as in an unproblematic personal preference. On the contrary. Choosing piracy not only reflects the intentions you have for your character, but your actions have consequences for the well-being of others online. The intentions, actions and consequences of piracy make it subject to moral evaluation. This should come as no surprise. All social games and online worlds have this ethical dimension. Pirates frequently try to ignore this, however, by hiding behind moral relativism and refusing to take responsibility for their actions.
In a related vein, most of us have heard about research on video games that claim to establish a weak correlation between real and video violence. Like many others, I'm skeptical of these studies. What is more pertinent to EVE, is the research on pro-social and anti-social behaviour online, and the related question of whether sociopaths choose games like EVE as a way to act out their violent impulses.
Perhaps piracy is best understood as an online way of life that, at a minimum, intentionally victimizes others. The victim is usually vulnerable, and the pirate risks little to nothing at all. Piracy in EVE also represents anti-social behaviour, and it is not unreasonable to suspect that at least some of EVE's pirates are working out other personal issues.
This brief definition of piracy is provisional, and I would appreciate the community's thoughts on the matter.
Cheers!
PS. Lady Spank, do come visit us in Alderat. It would be nice to see you. 
|
Grimpak
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
|
Posted - 2010.01.20 15:08:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Lady Spank
I choose to self harm ingame. It's funny rite.
I simply look at their setups and RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE.
I mean, when you shoot down a horrible, horrible fit, beyond pr0 and you watch the kmail, all you think is "BY THE GODS HOW CAN HAVE THIS ***GOTERY COME TO PASS FOR SO LONG????!?!?!?!oneoneoneleventwelvepods".
---
Quote:
The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
JordanParey
Minmatar
Suddenly Ninjas
|
Posted - 2010.01.20 15:30:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Felix Jugo
Originally by: The Crushah
...I really consider myself a pre-proto-meta-pirate.
You're in the early stages of, in a crude way, pillaging the concept of piracy itself?
That would make him a piratey pirate pirating piracy
|
Helicity Boson
Amarr
The Python Cartel.
The Jerk Cartel
|
Posted - 2010.01.20 15:52:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Helicity Boson on 20/01/2010 15:52:49
Originally by: Delilah Wild
bla bla bla
You don't "get" piracy.
In addition foisting your baseless accusations as to what kind of people we are in person on us is antisocial.
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Awesome Possum
Underworld Excavators
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Posted - 2010.01.20 17:32:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Delilah Wild
What is more pertinent to EVE, is the research on pro-social and anti-social behaviour online, and the related question of whether sociopaths choose games like EVE as a way to act out their violent impulses.
Perhaps piracy is best understood as an online way of life that, at a minimum, intentionally victimizes others. The victim is usually vulnerable, and the pirate risks little to nothing at all. Piracy in EVE also represents anti-social behaviour, and it is not unreasonable to suspect that at least some of EVE's pirates are working out other personal issues.
So the pro-social aspects of EVE are considered antisocial behavior; Piracy, 0.0 warfare, empire merc corps.
But the antisocial aspects of EVE are considered pro-social behavior; mining, industry, marketing, mission w***ing.
Is that what you're saying?
Here's your sign.
♥
Wreck Disposal Services |
Tason Hyena
Minmatar
Blue Republic
|
Posted - 2010.01.20 17:49:00 -
[21]
So is antisocial the latest term to toss at carebears now or something?
The OP's friend is thinking too much. Piracy really is just ganking for the lulz on weaker targets foolish enough to step outside of hisec. Thing about EVE is for some reason people love to try and justify whatever they do and blame the victim. So its not just you have to organize an event to gank mining ships, you have to wrap yourself in moral legitimacy by tacking on spurious motives like "teaching miners to align" "introducing risk in hi sec" or " making a statement about insurance."
Lets just keep it simple. It's fun to gank miners, it's fun to gank noobs in lowsec, it's fun not ganking them and having them pay either isk, or in a silly song. It's the justifying that gets annoying, not so much the actions.
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Awesome Possum
Underworld Excavators
|
Posted - 2010.01.20 18:04:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tason Hyena
So is antisocial the latest term to toss at carebears now or something?
In terms of teaming up? Yes.
In terms of actually interacting with people, not really. When I mission w***e, I'm in eve radio chat, c&p, etc. But as for actually fleeting up with people, having fun interacting? That cuts down on my profit, bugger them.
♥
Wreck Disposal Services |
Shawshanke
|
Posted - 2010.01.20 18:46:00 -
[23]
Derr umm it has the word social in it derrr umm and it has the word anti in it so it most mean doesn't like to work with others ummm derrr.
Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD or APD) is defined by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual as "...a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood."
Not to be confused with Avoidant personality disorder.
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Gladys Pank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
|
Posted - 2010.01.20 19:05:00 -
[24]
I was going to raaaaage about necroing this but it's Delilah, so I am honoured
~
Soar Like a Penguin |
Awesome Possum
Underworld Excavators
|
Posted - 2010.01.20 19:14:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Shawshanke
Derr umm it has the word social in it derrr umm and it has the word anti in it so it most mean doesn't like to work with others ummm derrr.
Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD or APD) is defined by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual as "...a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood."
Not to be confused with Avoidant personality disorder.
The American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual does not take into account the fact that no one has any rights in EVE except:
- Those given to us by CCP via the EULA, and in-game mechanics
- Those we make and take for ourselves by force.
Its a game, its how the game is meant to be played. Go cry about the lack of co-operative play in King of the Hill why don't you?
♥
Wreck Disposal Services |
Ballista III
8e5T Co0pRAt10n 1n Ev3
|
Posted - 2010.01.20 19:30:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Lana's Alt
Originally by: Lady Spank
Originally by: Lana's Alt
Originally by: Jones Bones
A TL:DR would be nice for that useless wall of words.
Stuff happened that wasn't thread worthy but someone made a thread about it, and then someone else made a thread about that.
Wardec incoming tbh.
For once I am proud to say... Bring it on.
to think that i once tried soo hard to bring those two together in peace.......... 
|
Gladys Pank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
|
Posted - 2010.01.20 19:51:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ballista III
Originally by: Lana's Alt
Originally by: Lady Spank
Wardec incoming tbh.
For once I am proud to say... Bring it on.
to think that i once tried soo hard to bring those two together in peace..........
She came at me with a venegance
~
Soar Like a Penguin |
Syringe
Incura
|
Posted - 2010.01.20 20:07:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Delilah Wild
Hello Everyone,
<stuff>
I think you're thinkin too much about this. Some of us are just little ADD kids that like to watch stuff blow up.
---------
War isn't the answer. However, the objective isn't to provide answers rather than eliminate the question. |
Shawshanke
|
Posted - 2010.01.20 20:10:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Awesome Possum
The American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual does not take into account the fact that no one has any rights in EVE except:
- Those given to us by CCP via the EULA, and in-game mechanics
- Those we make and take for ourselves by force.
Its a game, its how the game is meant to be played. Go cry about the lack of co-operative play in King of the Hill why don't you?
The first part of your comment is a pretty good counter argument, but the second part is the typical "it R hte internetz, no talk about anything complexed here. Inernetz is only for talk about cookies and lulz".
To the first part when The American Psychiatric Association talks about "rights" they are talking about basic human rights that stand outside of any set of human rules weather it be in a 3rd word nation or any other form of human interaction.
To the second part, if talking about human interaction is to complex for you just keep cutting and pasting "It be du internetz, it stands in a special netherworld outside of human interaction."
I wont be able to reply for a bit because my GF is feeling needy but I'll be back later.
|
Awesome Possum
Underworld Excavators
|
Posted - 2010.01.20 20:22:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Shawshanke
Originally by: Awesome Possum
The American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual does not take into account the fact that no one has any rights in EVE except:
- Those given to us by CCP via the EULA, and in-game mechanics
- Those we make and take for ourselves by force.
Its a game, its how the game is meant to be played. Go cry about the lack of co-operative play in King of the Hill why don't you?
The first part of your comment is a pretty good counter argument, but the second part is the typical "it R hte internetz, no talk about anything complexed here. Inernetz is only for talk about cookies and lulz".
To the first part when The American Psychiatric Association talks about "rights" they are talking about basic human rights that stand outside of any set of human rules weather it be in a 3rd word nation or any other form of human interaction.
To the second part, if talking about human interaction is to complex for you just keep cutting and pasting "It be du internetz, it stands in a special netherworld outside of human interaction."
I wont be able to reply for a bit because my GF is feeling needy but I'll be back later.
To the first part of your post replying to the first portion of my rebuttal, you're basing this upon the opinion that there is such a thing as universal human rights. I disagree with that opinion, its as illusional as universal morality.
As to the second portion of your post replying to the last bit of my hurf. Nuts!
♥
Wreck Disposal Services |
Syringe
Incura
|
Posted - 2010.01.20 20:26:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Shawshanke
"it R hte internetz, no talk about anything complexed here. Inernetz is only for talk about cookies and lulz".
...and ****. Don't forget ****.
---------
War isn't the answer. However, the objective isn't to provide answers rather than eliminate the question. |
Lana Torrin
Minmatar Republic Military Skool
|
Posted - 2010.01.20 22:31:00 -
[32]
Holy Carp... (typo intended)
I remember this thread! Never did get that wardec... And I had my surprise alt ready to counter dec and everything... But now the surprise alt isn't a surprise and you have moved...
Oh well.. Fun ties while it lasted..
What happened to my AF boost? |
Sytoru Hiroshyma
The Stewie Griffin Fanclub
|
Posted - 2010.01.21 00:36:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Awesome Possum
Here's your sign.
I lol'd pretty hard 
|
Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2010.01.21 06:40:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Delilah Wild
Hello Everyone,
In a related vein, most of us have heard about research on video games that claim to establish a weak correlation between real and video violence. Like many others, I'm skeptical of these studies. What is more pertinent to EVE, is the research on pro-social and anti-social behaviour online, and the related question of whether sociopaths choose games like EVE as a way to act out their violent impulses.
Perhaps piracy is best understood as an online way of life that, at a minimum, intentionally victimizes others. The victim is usually vulnerable, and the pirate risks little to nothing at all. Piracy in EVE also represents anti-social behaviour, and it is not unreasonable to suspect that at least some of EVE's pirates are working out other personal issues.
Perhaps.... but if you are referring to the works of Col. Dave Grossman, be advised that his work is not proven, mostly based on the research of others, and he has been picked apart by his peers. I know people who live in the kind of world (one percenters) that Grossman writes about and they refer to him with such words as "REMF" and "charlatan".
Normally he surfaces when the usual prozaced up kid shoots his classmates claiming that violent video games may have played a role in influencing this behavior, but post-facto research into such incidents tends towards a more detailed personality profile that goes beyond "video games made him do it".
Your other assertion could have more substance. CCP means "Crowd Control Productions" and the mentality of those who would go out of their way to gank a faction ship for no reason does compare to someone who would key a new car. This is indicated by their blog posts. CCP might be doing the United States a service by keeping the depressed emo kids in their mothers' basements playing EvE rather than taking out their inability to realize that nobody really does care on others in the real world. This indirectly reduces the cost of ammo.
|
Arekhon
Estel Arador Corp Services
|
Posted - 2010.01.21 14:22:00 -
[35]
I love threads that use long paragraphs and psychiatrist lingo to tell me that I may or may not have a problem in RL because I play a pirate in EVE.
WoW, just WoW
Now I know it really reads "some players in EvE" but still, this is just rediculous when someone gets blown up and has to go into a long dissertation about the character of the person behind the keyboard.
|
Main Agent
Caldari
|
Posted - 2010.01.21 14:28:00 -
[36]
Even in RL people will justify there decisions till they are blue in the face.
ok is it? |
Helicity Boson
Amarr
The Python Cartel.
The Jerk Cartel
|
Posted - 2010.01.21 14:34:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Helicity Boson on 21/01/2010 14:34:54
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer
CCP means "Crowd Control Productions" and the mentality of those who would go out of their way to gank a faction ship for no reason does compare to someone who would key a new car. This is indicated by their blog posts. CCP might be doing the United States a service by keeping the depressed emo kids in their mothers' basements playing EvE rather than taking out their inability to realize that nobody really does care on others in the real world. This indirectly reduces the cost of ammo.
You have no idea how much the irony of your post sent large amounts of blood flow into my nethers.
Thank you so, so much <3
|
Arekhon
Estel Arador Corp Services
|
Posted - 2010.01.21 14:34:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Main Agent
Even in RL people will justify there decisions till they are blue in the face.
yea i know...i deal with them everyday at work.
also this thread makes me think of this
|
Gladys Pank
Amarr
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
|
Posted - 2010.01.21 19:12:00 -
[39]
OP is stupid.
~
Soar Like a Penguin |
Delilah Wild
|
Posted - 2010.01.21 19:28:00 -
[40]
Hello,
It has been interesting reading your comments. A few thoughts.
It was fascinating to watch pirates quickly try to define themselves as pro-social, and non-pirates as anti-social. Reminds me of 1984's new-speak.
In this vein, a big thank you to Shawshanke. Your well-taken comments on the definition of anti-social, and its distinction from those who may choose to fly alone (whether pirate or not) helped clarify matters greatly.
So too Herzog. Its nice to see you here! Your points are well-taken. I'm skeptical about the video violence leading to real violence thesis myself. The stronger research in that arena relates to moral desensitization and implicit sociopathology. I hadn't thought about the possibility that EVE may be keeping the world safe from emo rage, much less keep the cost of ammo down.
For those of you wanting to 'keep it simple', allow me to suggest that thinking and fun are not mutually exclusive. You might enjoy trying it sometime.
With respect to the posts asserting moral relativism, I'm not a fan of absolute ethical claims myself. Your error is in making a dichotomy between absolutism and relativism. There is a broad creative middle ground that doesn't partake of either extreme. Something else to consider is the perennial nature of ethical questions, even when there exist no perfect answers. Because our actions impact the well being of others on EVE, piracy is always a space for ethical reflection and critique.
On the flip side, there is a growing network of committed anti-pirates. We do not have perfect motives either. Even so, it seems to me that anti-pirates differ from pirates in at least three, pro-social respects. They:
* reflect upon and takes responsibility for their actions;
* are aware that the well-being of others is impacted by theor own and others' actions; and
* care enough to help others.
You can enjoy your pvp either way. So why not choose to help the community rather than victimize it?
Cheers!
|
Tason Hyena
Minmatar
Blue Republic
|
Posted - 2010.01.21 20:46:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Delilah Wild
Hello,
It has been interesting reading your comments. A few thoughts.
It was fascinating to watch pirates quickly try to define themselves as pro-social, and non-pirates as anti-social. Reminds me of 1984's new-speak.
In this vein, a big thank you to Shawshanke. Your well-taken comments on the definition of anti-social, and its distinction from those who may choose to fly alone (whether pirate or not) helped clarify matters greatly.
So too Herzog. Its nice to see you here! Your points are well-taken. I'm skeptical about the video violence leading to real violence thesis myself. The stronger research in that arena relates to moral desensitization and implicit sociopathology. I hadn't thought about the possibility that EVE may be keeping the world safe from emo rage, much less keep the cost of ammo down.
For those of you wanting to 'keep it simple', allow me to suggest that thinking and fun are not mutually exclusive. You might enjoy trying it sometime.
With respect to the posts asserting moral relativism, I'm not a fan of absolute ethical claims myself. Your error is in making a dichotomy between absolutism and relativism. There is a broad creative middle ground that doesn't partake of either extreme. Something else to consider is the perennial nature of ethical questions, even when there exist no perfect answers. Because our actions impact the well being of others on EVE, piracy is always a space for ethical reflection and critique.
On the flip side, there is a growing network of committed anti-pirates. We do not have perfect motives either. Even so, it seems to me that anti-pirates differ from pirates in at least three, pro-social respects. They:
* reflect upon and takes responsibility for their actions;
* are aware that the well-being of others is impacted by theor own and others' actions; and
* care enough to help others.
You can enjoy your pvp either way. So why not choose to help the community rather than victimize it?
Cheers!
The reason why we tell you to keep it simple is because you can overthink and try and tack on a whole moral and ethical network that simply does not exist, mostly based on generalizations of the conditions of a lot of people with differing specific motives. Who is to say that pirates are:
anti-social
Not helping others in the game.
Aware of and reflective on how their actions impact others.
How can you even say that piracy victimizes the community? What's the difference if I get blown up by a pirate in low sec, or by a NBSI alliance in 0.0? Both involve ship destruction, both are equally often as unfair, and both involve me going into a region of space with risk. Why is being an anti-pirate not victimizing either, for that regards?
Some would even argue that piracy enhances the game by increasing risk, and it sure enough gives you anti-pirate corps stuff to do doesn't it? It's as part of a game as mining, 0.0 warfare, militia, and any other.
You are trying to generalize the mindset of all pirates into a theory which can't work, because of the differing motives people have in the game. Academic thought especially in the social sciences is notorious for this, to harmful affect. Pirates simply can't be put into a box and given a single motivation, and neither can the impact of their actions.
That's why I at least tell you to keep it simple.
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Myrkala
Minmatar
Aurora Acclivitous
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Posted - 2010.01.21 23:13:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Helicity Boson
Edited by: Helicity Boson on 21/01/2010 14:34:54
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer
CCP means "Crowd Control Productions" and the mentality of those who would go out of their way to gank a faction ship for no reason does compare to someone who would key a new car. This is indicated by their blog posts. CCP might be doing the United States a service by keeping the depressed emo kids in their mothers' basements playing EvE rather than taking out their inability to realize that nobody really does care on others in the real world. This indirectly reduces the cost of ammo.
You have no idea how much the irony of your post sent large amounts of blood flow into my nethers.
Thank you so, so much <3
<3
-
Thanks CCP, I knew you had it in you! <3 Long live Naglfar! |
Delilah Wild
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Posted - 2010.01.29 00:14:00 -
[43]
Tason,
Thank you for writing a reasonable response. My apologies for the delay in replying. We've been at war, and that took up a bit of my time.
Your point about not over-generalizing the mindset of pirates is well taken. Stronger still when one takes your criticism of over-interpreted theories into account. I agree with you. Note, however, that over-generalized, universal theories about pirate psychology are not my focus here. Ethics is is my focus.
Ethics is not about absolute rules of right or wrong, much less psychological states. Rather it is a conversation about 'how we ought to live' with others. When we think about how we ought to live, we keep several things in mind -- intentions, actions and consequences.
Now the intentions of many pirates are, at least in part, quite evident through their statements on the forums and in game. in addition, actions speak for themselves, and frequently reveal some (if not all) of a pirate's norms. And lets not forget the consequences for the victims of piracy.
So while the worldview of pirates may differ, the motives and practice of piracy are fairly clear. One doesn't have to assert some universal theory about the mindset of all pirates, in order to subject the practice of piracy to moral scrutiny.
With respect to your other point, piracy by its very definition victimizes members of the community. Indeed, its rather hard to think of piracy in any other way. At the same time, I think you are right that when we shift scale, from real individuals and organizations, to the broader narrative arc, piracy also introduces an element of fun and drama in EVE.
Nonetheless, I think your point would have greater force if pirates were role-players acting out the dark-side, rather than immature kids, irresponsible adults, possible sociopaths, and so on. We would then be able to delink the character's role as pirate, from the person playing that role. It is not clear that we can do so at the present time.
Cheers! |
Achura Morachu
|
Posted - 2010.01.29 01:45:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Delilah Wild
thoughts without content
Originally by: Delilah Wild
Nonetheless, I think your point would have greater force if pirates were role-players acting out the dark-side, rather than immature kids, irresponsible adults, possible sociopaths, and so on. We would then be able to delink the character's role as pirate, from the person playing that role. It is not clear that we can do so at the present time.
bolded the parts that sound pretty "dark-side" to me
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Salen Kane
Amarr
|
Posted - 2010.01.29 11:19:00 -
[45]
Oh what the hell, I have to get into this. Work is too damn dull today:
Even the worst, most heinous acts in EVE isn't very bad when you think about it. Def. not worthy of calling someone a potential sociopath, or even immature. Picture the following:
You are standing in line at a grocery store. The lines are really long, you're in the back, and the lines are all moving sloooowly. Suddently, you see that a new line is about to open. You rush there, and because you get there quickly, you're the first in line when the new cash register opens. You pay for your groceries and get out of there much faster than you thought you would, feeling quite happy about yourself.
During this, you've victimized several people and conducted yourself in a slightly unethical manner. The basic ethics of the queue system is that whoever has waited longest should be the next one to receive service; you bypassed that rule. Still, I think its safe to say that you wouldn't like people to cut in infront of you when you're standing in line for something, so not only are you unethical, you're a hippocrit too.
You've victimized everyone else who moved towards the new line, in that you used their disadvantages (slower to react to the opening, or not being able to get there as fast as you could) in order to gain yourself an advantage at their expense. You made them wait longer in order to get faster service yourself. Congratulations, you're a sociopath! And not even a cool one like Hanibal Lecter.
Ofcourse, "thats just how things work" and "they only lost a little bit of time". But suicide ganking and piracy is how EVE works. The only thing you lose when you get killed is virtual money, which take a little bit of time to make back.
You cant take whatever ethics you choose to follow in your everyday life, apply them to a computer game, and proclaim people immoral because they dont follow said ethics (well, obviously you CAN, but that makes you a despot). Do you equate riding the bumper cars at a carnival to vehicular manslaughter?
At any rate, from my perspective, letting lose some of your darker impulses in a controlled environment where there is no real harm done to anyone is healthy. Some of the most mentaly unhealthy, dysfunctional people, are the ones who repress every 'bad' impulse they get. Mentaly healthy people can understand the consequences of their actions, and for example understand that killing someone and taking their stuff in a computer game which is heavily based on killing people and taking their stuff is acceptable, but killing people and taking their stuff in real life is not.
Ofcourse, if you look hard enough you might find a nutcase who does kill people because he was inspired by EVE piracy, but you will also find someone who did it because a dog told him to. The problem with these people is that they're nutcases (I mean seriously, he took orders from a DOG- if it had atleast been a cat...), not that they're pirates in EVE.
Do not try to pwn with the ship. You are only pwning yourself. Instead, realise that there is no ship, there is only you, pwning. |
Delilah Wild
|
Posted - 2010.02.01 16:28:00 -
[46]
Hello,
Sometimes real life is just too good to be true.
So lets see....
Being a pirate in eve is ok, because you cut in front of others while in-line at the grocery store.
Being unreflective about the ethics of your online interactions is ok, because you can explain away your rudeness to others waiting in-line at the grocery store.
Did I mention 'irresponsible adults' in a previous post?
Cheers |
Biczkowski
Minmatar
Ghosts of War
Initiative Mercenaries
|
Posted - 2010.02.01 20:08:00 -
[47]
delila get a life lol k thx bye
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Inertial
Killing Spree Inc
|
Posted - 2010.02.01 20:57:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Delilah Wild
Hello,
Sometimes real life is just too good to be true.
So lets see....
Being a pirate in eve is ok, because you cut in front of others while in-line at the grocery store.
Being unreflective about the ethics of your online interactions is ok, because you can explain away your rudeness to others waiting in-line at the grocery store.
Did I mention 'irresponsible adults' in a previous post?
Cheers
I am a Serial Killer. I say this not because I have actually killed anyone in real life, but because I have killed people in various games, including, but not limited to EVE. So when I say Serial killer I do of course mean Serial Killer waiting to happen, and when I say killed, I do of course mean "shot/stabbed/beat to death the enemies pixelated pretend internet ships/man/stuff causing their pretend ships/man/stuff to explode/bleed to death/die in another gruesome matter.
I know that I have killed, and I know that I will kill again. The real question is if my next victim will bleed pixels or real, warm and sweet sweet blood.
I mean, is shooting some guy with a shotgun in the face, and then teabagging him repeatedly in a game, really so different than doing the same in real life. In both instances the last thing he sees before he bleeds out/respawns is my ass repeatedly "humping" up and down on his face. The shame and disgrace is the same in both instances (although the dying and pain part may be a bit different).
I think its time that all of us, who call ourselves gamers took a long hard look at ourselves. The boundaries between pixels and bits and bones and blood, may be thinner than we think.
I would also like to take this opportunity to tell the miners to take long hard look at themselves. Mining in the real world causes serious environmental damages, and the so-called pretend mining that happens in EVE, tough it may seem innocent, carries dangers with it. Before you know it, you will be covered in coal dust while wielding a pick axe. With the environmental crisis going on, you need to stop and ask yourself, "Will I allow my grandchild to grow up in a black and brown world, or a green and blue world?".
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Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
|
Posted - 2010.02.02 03:47:00 -
[49]
Anybody remember the blog about how in Eve we all play a role? Piracy is just another role - it has little to do with out of game ethics.
I have played as ant-pk/anti-griefer in previous games and I really enjoyed it. I got into the role and explored it. In Eve I'm a pirate and for me that means:
- making a living in low sec off what we take by force from others.
Sure we ransom and go Yarr! after ganking someone but the guts of our life style as pirates is how we choose to make a living.
All the blah blah blah about piracy being easy mode is so . Like all other forms of pvp piracy is alot to do with how you run it. You can try to blue up all the main threats, as many pirates do, or you can prey on everyone. Regardless gate guns make life awkward.
I believe that the ethical choices in game are about how we treat those we have real contact with, our corpmates on voice comms, and pirates face them in much the same way as everyone else.
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2010.02.02 06:58:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Helicity Boson
Edited by: Helicity Boson on 21/01/2010 14:34:54
Originally by: Herzog Wolfhammer
CCP means "Crowd Control Productions" and the mentality of those who would go out of their way to gank a faction ship for no reason does compare to someone who would key a new car. This is indicated by their blog posts. CCP might be doing the United States a service by keeping the depressed emo kids in their mothers' basements playing EvE rather than taking out their inability to realize that nobody really does care on others in the real world. This indirectly reduces the cost of ammo.
You have no idea how much the irony of your post sent large amounts of blood flow into my nethers.
Thank you so, so much <3
I feel dirty.
|
Tason Hyena
Minmatar
Blue Republic
|
Posted - 2010.02.02 07:52:00 -
[51]
Quote:
Now the intentions of many pirates are, at least in part, quite evident through their statements on the forums and in game. in addition, actions speak for themselves, and frequently reveal some (if not all) of a pirate's norms. And lets not forget the consequences for the victims of piracy.
Yeah I get that. Lets look at the consequences of piracy. I go into lowsec, I get blown up and podded or ransomed or maybe blown up and ransomed. Assuming we are defining piracy as that, and not as just stealing from cans or the like.
Lets now look at the consequences of me going into a NBSI 0.0 area, lowsec area or wormhole. I get blown up and podded.
Where's the difference? You are saying one form is antisocial, but the other isn't.
Quote:
With respect to your other point, piracy by its very definition victimizes members of the community. Indeed, its rather hard to think of piracy in any other way. At the same time, I think you are right that when we shift scale, from real individuals and organizations, to the broader narrative arc, piracy also introduces an element of fun and drama in EVE.
Nonetheless, I think your point would have greater force if pirates were role-players acting out the dark-side, rather than immature kids, irresponsible adults, possible sociopaths, and so on. We would then be able to delink the character's role as pirate, from the person playing that role. It is not clear that we can do so at the present time.
CAOD.
Seriously, if you are using forums as a judge, the average big 0.0 alliance contains more psychopaths than any pirate corp could ever hope to muster. The threadnaught over the goons losing systems due to not paying rent is what, 27 pages of mostly U MAD? and relishing in tears.
I don't see how one form of playing EVE is unethical and the result of a certain type of personality while being the same in effect as other types virtually similar.
I also don't see how behavior in a game is reflective of real life personal ethics or attributes. For an ethical theorist you seem quick to tar pirates with labels not really warranted, as Achura highlighted. You don't have to consciously roleplay being a pirate to prove you aren't ethically challenged and not a psychopath. People talk smack, even over something as simple as a game of halo among friends. I think you read into that dimensions of ethical behavior that aren't there.
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TraininVain
|
Posted - 2010.02.02 13:12:00 -
[52]
If people didn't want me to have their stuff they wouldn't undock with it 
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Rouge Drone
|
Posted - 2010.02.02 13:52:00 -
[53]
I know enough to know that piracy died 3 years ago.
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Jovialmadness
|
Posted - 2010.02.02 16:33:00 -
[54]
Didn't read op but I just felt like poasting in here.
Hi |
Yakov Draken
Minmatar
Tides Of War
|
Posted - 2010.02.02 19:52:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Rouge Drone
I know enough to know that piracy died 3 years ago.
Ignorance is bliss dude. Bliss out!
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Salen Kane
Amarr
|
Posted - 2010.02.03 13:03:00 -
[56]
Quote:
Being a pirate in eve is ok, because you cut in front of others while in-line at the grocery store.
No, being a pirate in eve is COMPARABLE to cutting infront of others while in-line at the grocery store, at a level of how much damage it actually does to people.
Quote:
Being unreflective about the ethics of your online interactions is ok, because you can explain away your rudeness to others waiting in-line at the grocery store.
I thought we had established I dont have to wait inline at the grocery store because I sometimes kill people in EVE? Anyway, I think I was actually quite reflective about it. I considered the impact my online actions have on people, found that the ACTUAL DAMAGE DONE to them (not to be confused with the perceived damage done to them- obviously people can FEEL violated because they get ganked or scammed in a game that openly permits ganking and scamming, but people can feel offended at just about everything) was a slight loss of pixels that can be easily regained by spending some time.
Quote:
Did I mention 'irresponsible adults' in a previous post?
Yes:
Originally by: Delilah Wild
Nonetheless, I think your point would have greater force if pirates were role-players acting out the dark-side, rather than immature kids, irresponsible adults, possible sociopaths, and so on. We would then be able to delink the character's role as pirate, from the person playing that role. It is not clear that we can do so at the present time.
Seeya at the grocery store!
Do not try to pwn with the ship. You are only pwning yourself. Instead, realise that there is no ship, there is only you, pwning. |
Noskill McCheese
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2010.02.06 20:22:00 -
[57]
Hey guys I like making internet spaceships asplode and I also like beer n' wings but I think I might be a bad person and should perhaps turn myself in to the authorities in case my love of internet space asplosions leads me to murder people irl. help?
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Krinthe
Gallente
The Scope
|
Posted - 2010.02.06 22:03:00 -
[58]
For damned sakes Delihia and everyone else on that same wavelength..
I can not believe it is so difficult for those of you to understand that EVE isnt a moral game. Now, if YOU want to play the game with morals, that is YOUR business. When you start telling OTHERS your morals and ethics and how THEY should abide by them, its WRONG!!
Your "store" metaphor is also incorrectly placed here because you are indeed bring RL ethics into a damn GAME. ITS A GAME MAN...GAME!!!
In RL, I am all about the KARMA!! Be nice, treat others with respect, open the door for someone, etc etc. MORALS!!
In EVE. If I have an opportunity to kick your arse..Im going to KICK YOUR ARSE!!! I dont care if your in a big ship that cost lost of isk. I dont care whats in your cargo and "ohhhh, i just went 23 jumps to get this stuff" have mercy on me BullS...!!
THAT IS EVE. That is exactly why EVE is what EVE is. This is the precise definition of sand box game.
Hang up your RL woes on the door before you enter, or you can let the door hit ya on the arse on your way out..
A 10th of all I earn I keep for myself. |
Kyle Langdon
Gallente
The Python Cartel.
The Jerk Cartel
|
Posted - 2010.02.06 22:12:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Noskill McCheese
Hey guys I like making internet spaceships asplode and I also like beer n' wings but I think I might be a bad person and should perhaps turn myself in to the authorities in case my love of internet space asplosions leads me to murder people irl. help?
Contract me your stuff and turn yourself into the police. It's the only solution.
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Tiberius Skrooem
Huwee Skrooem and Howe Solicitors
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Posted - 2010.02.06 22:16:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Kyle Langdon
Originally by: Noskill McCheese
Hey guys I like making internet spaceships asplode and I also like beer n' wings but I think I might be a bad person and should perhaps turn myself in to the authorities in case my love of internet space asplosions leads me to murder people irl. help?
Contract me your stuff and turn yourself into the police. It's the only solution.
And after doing that, transfer all your isk to me. You're going to need an e-lawyer, I'm sure.
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CantStopThe Rokh
Red Federation
|
Posted - 2010.02.06 23:09:00 -
[61]
Edited by: CantStopThe Rokh on 06/02/2010 23:12:05
Edited by: CantStopThe Rokh on 06/02/2010 23:08:59
Originally by: Delilah Wild
Reminds me of 1984's new-speak.
What you are referring to is double-think, which is to contradict oneself in ones own opinions or hold two completely different beliefs that in the mind of that person are perfectly logical. Neither double-think, nor new-speak have anything to do with the current debate however.
I am not really sure what you are arguing to be perfectly honest. You seem to be claiming that pirates are anti-social and are pirates in a video game because they have issues in real life and Eve is their way to work through and vent their real life troubles. I would be curious what you are basing this assumption on? Do you have any reasoning behind?
Even if the above is true then it still has nothing to do with piracy as a whole. Piracy is exactly what it sounds like, attacking another players ship, and ransoming it. If you are not ransoming it then you are just pvping because you are killing their ship. The general consensus is that this refers to pvp in low sec, however this does not have to be true. You can pirate in 0.0 as well. Activities concerning hi-sec are generally suicide ganking, or empire war-decing which is different then piracy.
You then talk about pirates being immoral, etc... Everyone who goes into lowsec and 0.0 gets a warning (unless they turn it off) that they can be shot by other players. A sign pops up in the middle of your screen, telling you, that other players can shoot you. Anyone venturing into low-sec has therefor been warned and has agreed to the terms that lowsec lays out for them, namely: They can be shot.
Edit: To sum up: You agreed to get shot in lowsec, because I decided to shoot you does not mean that there is anything "wrong" with me.
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Tesal
|
Posted - 2010.02.06 23:14:00 -
[62]
lol..yarr
Sirmolle...lol
you are pirates!! lol
Evolution, "they have been shooting people for no reason for a while now."
Oh god, 50 BS dead! "Keep on flaming, lamers." (just for fun)
lol, early scamming. (for fun)
never stop posting...with alts.
Please do not use inappropriate language in your sig. Zymurgist |
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