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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 36 post(s) |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.07 06:42:00 -
[1]
Trying to get more new alliances into 0.0 and make it more dynamic?
Not with those costs. LOL Those costs only favours the old guys with already deep pockets.
But on the other hand, I like for example that the jump bridges are expensive since they are so powerful and giving a really huge advantage.
It is a dilemma - making prices high enough for important things and at the same time not to boost hugely the already powerful alliances over newcommers. Time will tell how this will go.
But what I didn't understand exactly - what is sov for? Is it required for those strategic upgrades? Or what use does it have (except maybe bragging rights)?
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.07 15:39:00 -
[2]
First, thanks to CCP Soundwave for taking the time and care to adress a lot of concerns.
But as usual and despite all nice talk of taking feedback into account and releasing stuff early to the test server so that the devs can listen to the players, it is again FAR to late to change a bad system. So we have to stick with the current stuff and I am pretty scared about the outlooks, it is really grim for 0.0
First of all, and I asked that already over and over and long time ago first when the static DED complexes were removed, what incentives are there for players to fight over? EVERYONE needs a reason to do things and the reason 'just because i can' might work for a few individuals but for the majority of the people this is not enough. With the removal of high end moons the biggest incentive for fleet fights and capturing things is gone. Are there new incentives introduced in Dominion? Not that I see. Doing some npc farming can be done much easier and without any risk at all better in high sec. Why should people come to 0.0 in larger numbers then? 0.0 is not about npc farming, it never was (except few individuals) because high sec is much better for that. 0.0 was always about fleet battles and tons of pvp action. How can that be increased in Dominion? I only see carebear stuff, but that is best left in high sec or wormholes. So, why going to 0.0?
Now the costs. It is said 5 mil for a large pos per day? But that is WRONG. It is only 1 mil in npc goods. The other 4 mil are ice products and your corp members can mine them, so this wouldn't hurt the wallet. I don't want to analyze to pro and cons about ice mining ops but at least you could lower the fuel costs drasticallly ON YOUR OWN. The basic numbers for upkeeping the system are therefore already totally wrong (and don't come now with the argument that people could rat/plex and donate the money to the corp instead of mining ice, that are two completely different activities). And also you could use the pos for income AND sov claiming eg. reactions, moon mining, labs, assembly arrays so the numbers are even more wrong - if that is possible. In essence, many of the pos were cost neutral. So the 20 mil per system are nonsense.
My biggest concern is that CCP is trying to lure carebears into 0.0 while smashing all the currently existing (social) structures into pieces with the new sov system but at the same time the carebears won't come to 0.0 because it is just not worth the effort. This way you will have NOTHING in the end. The existing social structures gone and no new ones emerging.
Surely, Dominion is a pure carebear expansion and not a tiny bit pvp orientated. But carebears have their own logic and they certainly don't follow CCP's logic as already proven time over time and last seen with the wormholes.
So, be VERY careful about what you are doing and keep in mind the bad examples the mmo industry showed already. Not listening to the community and to the people who make up your 0.0 game for YEARS now is surely not a clever move. ALL concerns from really experiences alliances like CVA are constantly ignored from the beginning on. No good prospects, really.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.07 16:31:00 -
[3]
Originally by: CCP Soundwave I completely agree that systems will be able to sustain about 10, possibly 15 people active at one time
Did you take into account that when you have 10 anomalies and already 9 people running anomalies in the system that you will have only a 10% chance of finding the unoccupied anomaly in the first attempt? And it still is only 50/50 after checking three of the anomalies. That all will cost time. So 10 anomalies all the time can NOT realistically keep 10 people busy with npc farming all the time. Just saying.
And a single pvp guy can kill ALL the activity of ALL npc runners.
Did you take that into account also??
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.07 19:14:00 -
[4]
Originally by: emotua Hell, we have 100 systems for 1800 people.
...
BUT you have 1800 people! well actually probably more like 720 real one ... probably 40% of that mass is really active => 288 active real people
You don't need 100 systems for 288 active people.
First you say that you have 1800 people so that you can say you need at least 100 systems.
But then you say that you have only 288 active people and that they cannot pay all the money for so many systems.
Make up your mind!
Either you have 1800 active people and need 100 systems.
Or you have 288 active people and then you do not need 100 systems. If you put 18 people into the system (as you claim intitially with 1800 people in 100 systems) then you only need 16 systems.
And that reduces the costs to 100 mil per person per month. Yes, it is still some money, but not as ridiculous as you tried to outline first!
Anyway!
The jumpbridges should stay expensive beause they are so powerful! Freighter convoys and jumpfreighters are still some alternative.
Carebear stuff in 0.0 won't work. A cloaked pvp gang or even a single hostile person in 0.0 can heavily disrupt the carebearing plexing.
More incentives to fight over space is necessary! With the high end moons gone, what is left to fight over?
Who the hell came up with the idea to pay isk for holding space in lawless space???!!! To whom is all the money paid? And why anyway if it is LAWLESS space???? Hello!!?!
Sad to see that CCP couldn't come up with a better and more belivable in game solution.
Why not some expensive lightweight fuel pellets which is consumed? And if that stuff is made partly from npc materials (there you have the isk sink then) and partly from the newly discovered sleeper gas sites (aka fullernes) then you could have combined an isk-sink, increased demand for sleeper stuff, wormhole exploitation and a little bit of logistic work (depending how light you make these fuel pellets) into a much better and more important, much more believable system than the current 'throw-away-isk-to-some-anonymous-law-enforcement-agency-in-lawless-space'. Also you could have made the players choose to spend more isk (by buying the pellets from the market) or to save a bit isk (by making the pellets from bought materials) or to save even more isk (by harvesting the fullernes in w-space yourself and buy only the npc materials and make the pellets yourself).
But I guess it is far to late for any of such suggestions.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.08 10:10:00 -
[5]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
excellent clarity of vision I must say!
It is true and something we said from outset that unbalanced alliances who are 95% PvP/Fleet and 5% industry will be most affected by this as we are reducing their dependency on passive point sources and introducing greater active resource density to allow for passive income to take over.
The alliances who will benefit most are those who have or aim to have balanced compositions of people with different playstyles or even act as enforcers or protectors of the space with multiple rental agreements if they wish and we will add tools as we call the treaty system to help facilitate that.
Sorry to be rude, but that is the most idiotic dev post I have seen in a while. Plus it lacks total understanding of how 0.0 developed over the years until now.
The ONLY force in 0.0 should be players! The ONLY way to control systems and to gain sov should be due to the players! Not by removing some alliance tickers, not by not paying enough isk to some completely idotic npc-overlords in lawless space.
It should be ALWAYS and ONLY the players in 0.0
And the whole idea of grinding to 'unlock' levels to get better stuff is a concept so out of the core Eve-concept that it is immensely sad to see Eve going this way.
What only did happen to the original vision of Eve?
No grinding, no levelling, no fixed paths forced to choose. Just freedom.
All gone.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.08 19:11:00 -
[6]
Originally by: ceaon
Originally by: Gnulpie
But what do you have as vision? Fixed grinding paths to unlock certain features and forcing people to do things which they don't like
none force you to do so you cry because you have to work for ISK atm there are "few" ppl in each of 0.0 alliances that fuel and haul all the moon **** and POS warfare stuff you just enjoy their work the ship replacement programs are made because "few" ppl run logistics all day, did u ask them if is fun to fuel POSes ?
adapt or go back to wow
And why would I need to grind for isk at all?
If I can chase off everyone from the part of space where I am and no one attacks me and I can do whatever I like to do there without anyone hindering me there, shouldn't it be 'my' space then until someone else comes and throws me out?
What would I need isk there???
I could have miners mining all the ore I need, I could have the blueprints ready to build stuff, I could have occasionally buy some npc fuel for the pos and the ice I could mine. I could build my ships and I could run radar sites to get datacores to invent the t2 items I want to have. Then what the **** would I need to grind for isk to PAY for my system then?
The only reason why I am forced to leave those systems should be OTHER PLAYERS kicking me out. Not some idiotic 'you can't pay your bill so you are losing your system' message created by an anonymous and artificial system.
IT SHOULD BE THE PLAYERS! And nothing else.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.08 19:30:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Dharh Only way to make people in empire flock to 0.0 would be to make it so those corps can make an invulnerable base and make 0.0 more profitable then empire. _No other way_. Period.
No!
0.0 shouldn't be about carebearing - we have empire for that.
0.0 should be about building your own empire and true sandbox. It should be about brutal battles and glorious victories. You should be able to become the next Eve Emporer there (sort of SirMolle II ) and you should have fierce enemies and also loyal allies. Or you go and try to make a safe heaven for some people. Or you try to just have some fun life there. Or or or.
But it should NOT about be carebearing and simulating empire carebearing.
And yes, to achieve that there should be few highly valuable things to capture and exploit until someone else comes and capture them. And there should be good space and better space and also crap space (so that you can easier build up there unhindered for example).
The whole idea of turning 0.0 into carebear land is so wrong. We don't need another carebear land! We already have one in Empire and that is good and fine.
0.0 must be wild and about legendary battles and riches to discover with great risk and where the big alliances can slug it out and the smaller alliances could sneak in quietly and secretly and build up until they can unleash their powers to shake the foundations of the big guys.
Not some stupid grinding for isk so that you can pay money (to whom???) that you can claim space.
Bah.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.09 07:21:00 -
[8]
Let us assume that Dominion will indeed lure a lot more people into 0.0 (which not only I doubt pretty much). And let us assume that they will do all the new profession sites.
What happens then with the new and heavily increased supply? If there won't be a new demand then prices will crash totally.
As example: already we see a lot of the t2 salvage parts around 50k per piece and only a few really expensive at 10 mil - but those will crash in price also if the supply increases drastically. So the proposed good income will turn out to be worth nothing. Or is CCP planning to add some new demand to balance the increased supply?
Same with the high end ores. Yes sure you can add a bunch of them, easy to mine, but that again will crash the market - if all the idea behind Dominion comes true and lots more people go into 0.0 doing profitable stuff.
Or are you going to throw the concept of player driven markets away and introduce just tons of isk faucets from npc's? (You already started to do that with introducing the sleeper tags in wormholes - a major part of the profits from wormholes comes from those tags which are nothing but artificial isk faucets and shouldn't have any place in a player-driven economy.)
And these questions ARE important because people need to pay the fixed and completely artificial upkeep costs in isk. And it doesn't matter for that artificial upkeep system what the player driven economy is doing and if the original numbers are still met or not.
Actually I would go forth and say that such an artificial and fixed system is pretty much incompatible with a truely player driven economy and market.
Would be nice if CCP could point out their opinion about this (and please don't come with something like 'we will watch it closely and adjust it if necessary' because we all know how that goes in the long run. If you care to answer, give some real thoughts and answers and not just some nonsense, better don't answer at all then).
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.09 10:01:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Gordon Reiss It's the mechanics STUPID!
I'm just another naive hopeful that bought into the poetic vision that Greyscale sang some months back. I really had great hope and excitement for Dominion.
But the machine you describe in this Dev Blog is boxlike and boring. And it does nothing to liven up null sec in my mind. I see no signs of the vision so eloquently described over the last few months.
Where are the stratigic targets for alliances to fight over? What is the incentive for new pilots to venture in to null sec?
I don't get it.
Sorry CCP, but please elaborate because something BIG is missing here. You guys need to quit this silent treatment and just spill it already.
There is no way this is it...
That is exactly the point.
Remember all the goons a couple of years ago in rifters mixing up the landscape? Did they care if they could earn more isk running l4's in high sec? NO!!
Do the alliance members in 0.0 currently care if they can earn more in high sec grinding npc mission after npc mission? NO!!
They are almost all in 0.0 because of the thrilling PVP! Because of fleet battles. Because of forming empires and kicking their enemies in the balls where it hurts. They are in 0.0 because of banding together for a goal to achieve.
If you want to grind PVE then go to empire. Or go to wormholes where you can earn 5 times as much as in l4's - at least.
Yes, it is good to have OPTIONS available for the alliances. If some alliance wants to be more industry based and their members mining, okay, they should have the option. If some alliances want to exploit other resources, fine, let them. And if other alliances want pvp, great.
BUT DO NOT FORCE PEOPLE TO DO A SINGLE PLAYSTYLE!!! Don't force people to grind grind grind stupid pve stuff only that they can afford the system bill - especially not when they have enough pvp people to defend the system easily. That should be enough!
It absolutely doesn't make any sense that you would lose a system when you are strong enough to hold it and no one would ever be able to capture it nor even attempted to capture it! Such a game mechanic is idiotic and should have no place in 0.0 or anywhere else in Eve!!
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.09 14:19:00 -
[10]
If CCP would change the upkeep cost away from just paying stupid isk to some completely ridiculous all-controlling entitfy in lawless 0.0 to something better, then there could be hope again.
For example they could introduce FUEL consumption.
Lightweight fuel pellets which are consumed by the different infrastructure things.
The fuel pellets should be that light that you can easily carry a month of it in a normal industrial ship like the iteron.
The fuel pellets should be manufacturable from a blueprint as well as being sold by npc in the beginning.
The fuel pellets should use some npc stuff to act as an isk sink. They should use also some of the gas from wormhole stuff to promote more interaction between the different parts of Eve. They should contain some 'normal' resources which can be harvested in normal Eve space.
THAT would be a much better way for the upkeep system than just paying isk. To whom should we pay it anyway and why?!
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.09 14:25:00 -
[11]
From the newest QEN - top used ships in Eve currently:
1) Hulk 2) Drake 3) Kestrel 4) Rifter 5) Retriever
So that are the ships which most of the people fly. I want to see how you go to 0.0 with that, capture and defend systems.
Somehow things aren't adding up.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.09 18:30:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Gnulpie on 09/11/2009 18:31:42
Originally by: Verone CCP is performing a MASSIVE change to game mechanics. The logic, and principle behind the change is outstanding.
The principles behind the changes are indeed outstanding. Outstanding idiotic.
Instead of a better sandbox where you can really develop your space on your own and free from limits we will have a totally artificial system that requires people to grind to 'unlock' the next 'level of upgrades'.
Originally by: Verone And all the whining about having to fuel towers and babysit 1000 control towers to keep your space, or destroy 1000 hardened control towers to take someone's space is going to be gone.
Who whined about that?
Only the losers whinened because they didn't take the effort to do so. Goons didn't whine about taking (undefended) Delve. Atlas didn't whine about taking (undefended) Omist. Atlas didn't whine about kicking RA out. Ev0ke isn't whining about Cloud Ring. IT isn't whining. Please show me those whines from the pvp guys. With enough firepower a pos will pop anyway pretty fast. Besides that, if hardened towers would be the problem, maybe change the hardeners then? lol
The guys who are doing the pvp didn't whine. Only some guys who cannot be arsed to get their ass up and do some stuff, they did whine.
But guess what. It won't become easier for them! Quite the contrary. Because now they do not only need to fight all their enemies, they additionally need to pay for all the space they already have.
Originally by: Verone 0.0 alliances have whined for years about having the Sovereignty system overhauled. CCP has the answer to it and the logic and ideas behind it are sound and well thought out.
Oh yeah sure, that's why even 20 days before launch the major parts of the overhaul aren't finalized. That is indeed very sound.
And well thought out? Yes, if you want a fixed theme park, then it is well thought out. Because nothing else is what CCP is implementing. They are throwing away the sandbox.
And besides that, if things are so well thought out, then why is recieving CVA the finger then? Those guys are the role model for successful 0.0 management and the base idea for CCP for this expansion. Only to bad that they will be wiped from existance. Yeah, very sound indeed.
It looks to me that CCP lost their direction and vision on a massive scale. TIME TO WAKE UP!
POSTPONE THE SOV CHANGES!
The expansion without the sov changes will be great already: new planetary graphics, new browser, new fleet organisation, new corp management tools, new eden (aka cosmos) web-interface, changes to high end moons, supercap changes and and and
But POSTPONE THE SOV CHANGES!
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.09 19:12:00 -
[13]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2 CCP stated that pure military alliance will be haveing trouble keeping space
Currently there are exactly zero pure military alliances holding space in 0.0
All of the currently alliances have an industry backbone to some degree. ALL the large alliances have an extended and pretty large industry backbone.
The pure military alliances do not hold space but live in 0.0 npc space or in low sec and start their roamings from that space. So they are not affected from sov changes at all. They couldn't care less about paying upkeeps.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.09 21:19:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Gnulpie on 09/11/2009 21:24:15
Originally by: Ben Derindar
Originally by: Kerdrak The funniest of all this topic is that CCP will end NERFING empire lvl4's to balance this expansion
I'm actually seriously starting to wonder the same thing. If it starts to look like CCP will take a subscriber hit regardless of what they do next, moving the remaining high-sec L4 agents to low-sec may actually emerge as the best option for the game at that point.
Haha, yeah sure. Only problem is that most of the subscribers are hardcore carebears and if CCP will take away their toys then they will just quit. They certainly will NOT go to low sec or 0.0. Look how many people are in 0.0 (20%?) and how many are in high sec (80%?) and then you can get an idea what is more important to CCP, 0.0 or high sec.
Anyway ...
I didn't read anything about alliance level management tools. Any news on that front? Especially important when you are going to have a lot more renters/pets in your space.
Can alliances set up and collect individual gate fees based on standings (within reasonable amounts)?
Also, will it be possible for alliances to grant certain groups/individuals automatic standing increases for certain activities? (eg. helping shooting enemies on a op or for a certain time will give 0.1 better standings towards the host alliance, standing increases and everything else should be individually settable by alliances)
Somehow I missed those basic functions. But ah! I see, it is all about grinding to "unlock" features of the game. How exciting... lol
Seriously, what happend to all those great visions you had once and which made Eve so special?
It seems all to be only about "grinding", "unlocking features" and predetermined fixed paths. What happened with the complete freedom of the sandbox? (okay, it was never a completely free sandbox, but much less determined and fixed than the proposed theme park concept)
Or am I missing something really big and vital here?
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.10 05:32:00 -
[15]
Why the need for military upgrades anyway?
Why do we need to 'unlock' and 'install' those upgrades? That is totally artificial and not fitting into Eve!
Instead if you rat enough the space should upgrade itself! Constantly and with finer grains. Not every level 2 more guaranteed anomalies, but every 1% of military index improvement, a 2% more chance to find one more anomaly. Just for example.
Get rid of these totally idiotic payment system for upgrades. If the players improve the space by their presence and by their doings, then the space should get improved automatically!!
I can understand the installation for cynofield jammers ... though that is bad also. Just make it chancewise. You should be able to light up a cyno always. But when the space is strategically powerful enough, then the jumprange to that cyno should become shorter and shorter. When the space is not improved by player doings, the jumprange should be just like to a normal cyno. And then the range reduces to 99% etc. until it hits 0% and the system is jammed.
THAT would be better. And more logical. And it wouldn't need that stupid and completely artificial payment system.
And best, both things are easy to implement!
Now, if you still want some isk sink, then go and consider those fuel pellets I mentioned earlier for the infrastructure hub. Those pellets should be manufactured using npc goods (for the isk sink), gas from sleeper space (for the better interaction between parts of eve) and they should be lightweigt (to reduce logistics).
Think about it.
All player actions should impact. Player actions should NOT go completely to waste unless they first fit into a predetermined pattern.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.10 13:51:00 -
[16]
It is to late to change the system as a whole. So my suggestions are not the best solution in general, but only specifically good under these circumstances.
THROW AWAY ALL UPGRADE INSTALLATIONS
Space should upgrade itself automatically when utilized enough.
Use the military/strategic/industry index which you have available to calculate the quality of space each downtime.
Depending on the quality of space, reduce the range of cynofields (thus effectivly jamming the system from some point on if the range goes to zero), increase rat bounties and amount of anomalies, increase ore and mining sites. If the quality of space goes down, then reverse the good effects of course.
This way you will have at least a somewhat logical and consistant sandbox effect.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.10 20:24:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Gnulpie on 10/11/2009 20:24:34 Edit: Failpost
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