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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 36 post(s) |
SavageBastard
Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 17:17:00 -
[1]
Edited by: SavageBastard on 07/11/2009 17:19:52
Originally by: Arkady Sadik So. Some numbers - someone tell me what I missed :-)
As it looks like on sisi, upgrades don't increase sov cost.
An alliance with 2 stations (one with JB), 1 moon miner elsewhere, and 1 otherwise useless logistics system for a JB connection to empire will need 271m ISK/day to pay for the sov and the four death stars.
Without upgrades, that little empire easily sustains 1 person ratting in each outpost system. So if you want to rat/mine for 8h straight (means 3 "shifts"), that's 1 (pilots) * 2 (systems) * 3 (shifts) = 12 pilots occupied. Each of them needs to pay 22.6m ISK per day for the privilege to rat in a system for 8 hours. Bit much? Yes. But you can upgrade fast.
PM 1: Now you can have 3 people rat at once. 3*2*3 = 15m ISK to pay for 8h ratting rights. PM 2: 5*2*3 = 9m ISK to pay for 8h ratting rights PM 5: 11*2*3 = 4.1m ISK to pay for 8h ratting rights.
And after that, you have paid for sov and all your death star fuel. All moon income is pure profit.
This ignores: 1) Miners, who can easily double that amount of pilots 2) Any other ISK-making ability with other upgrades 3) The other two cyno-jammed systems you have that people could rat and mine in 4) The ability to take and upgrade another system for 30m ISK/day. 5) The ability to rat in neighboring systems that do not have sov.
And you don't even have to do it yourself - if you want sov, find some pet to work in your systems and pay dues. They will cramp the system up, making it a good target for hostile PvP groups. Which in turn means more pew pew for your PvP pilots.
What you "missed" is that people don't pay a daily fee to rat. People fight for their space, they do the logistics and hard work to make that happen. Why the hell would you spend a bunch of money and time fighting for space for the privilege of paying a daily fee to rat in it. Nobody pays a daily fee for the privilege of running level 4 missions. 0.0 space is tough to get, tough to keep and tough to live in. The rewards should mirror that reality and these changes as a whole completely ignore it.
Also, mining is not worth doing in every system. Some places have great, valuable ores. Others do not. Mining to make 5 mil/hour in veldspar when you can rat at 20-30 mil an hour in belts is ridiculous. Or run level 4's in empire for what...50 mil an hour? More? All without worrying about getting ganked. People have bots do it for them for ****s sake.
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SavageBastard
Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 19:36:00 -
[2]
I appreciate that CCP is listening to the feedback in this thread and addressing some of the concerns that we have. The reduced costs at least begin to help. As everyone has pointed out the largest remaining issue is the idea that "more anomalies" is the solution to 0.0 income. It would be if they were profitable, but they aren't. We aren't just being whiny about this and we aren't upset because we wanted you to make us insanely rich with the space that we already had. You are reducing the amount of space we have and the quality of that space (less bridges and cynojammers) while at the same time doing literally nothing to improve the space that will remain.
The insistence that an anomaly frequency increase was the "best" way to go on your part seems to infer that it was the easiest coding solution. I can understand that for archaic or entangled coding reasons putting agents in 0.0 stations might be hard. I think it would also backfire, since more agents for the same stuff just means lower prices and less isk. In any case, might I suggest that simply buffing the vast myriad of 0.0 exploration sites that already exist might be a rather workable solution for everyone. I don't mean the drop rates for the really rare stuff, but the more common items and the base rat bounties. Also, add a chance for them to spawn officer/faction rats just like belts. Currently there are only certain sites that are really worth running compared to belt ratting. If you made them all at least on par (on average) with belt ratting then you would have made the space itself more valuable and given people reason to move around and hold the space while also increasing the income for players who actually bother to go and run the sites, whether they be hacking, salvage or otherwise.
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SavageBastard
Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 19:53:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Junkie Beverage
Originally by: Cefte Every single system with Goonswarm sov gets scanned and run for the profitable (read, non-profession) cosmic signatures by explorers every day. That's because the position of the plex loot on the supply/demand curve makes it a worthwhile use of time: you can make more money exploring than you can running L4 missions in empire.
No-one in our space mines, because mining in our space, or, indeed, any space, is not a profitable use of time compared to drone region ratting, or running L4 missions in empire.
People don't do unprofitable things in unprofitable space. Most of 0.0 is unprofitable space completely discounting the costs to hold it, right now.
0.0 was already at a disadvantage for having to spend a proportion of its income to simply provide basic services such as stations, and for the vastly increased risk. Those costs were offset by moongold. Remove moongold: OK, fine. Increase costs to hold space massively, without increasing the time profit density of that space, and what do you get? You get *****ing, you get no influx of empire dwellers to 0.0, and you get a game filled with mission runners and a PR department that has to lie through their teeth when they make HD propaganda trailers about going into deep nullsec and finding untold riches and great risks.
Not empty quotin the empty quote for truth.
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SavageBastard
Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 20:35:00 -
[4]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
- yes we are very aware of the 'level four missions' issue in relative activity income potentials to everything else.
Then why would you release a devblog just 3 or so weeks before expected implementation that reflects no knowledge of this whatsoever? Why do you guys keep giving answers that essentially say "yes we know that 0.0 isn't going to make enough money but we'll do that with new content in the future but we're going to stick you with all the costs NOW?" Either give us all of the alleged benefits with all the costs or don't do anything at all. All of us would love more than anything to get rid of POS warfare but if you're going to piecemeal all these changes you're going to keep seeing a lot of hollering.
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SavageBastard
Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 20:46:00 -
[5]
Originally by: ep1k
Why cant you just increase bounties on rats 100%, and remove all non faction pirates under battleship size. Why cant you just increase anomaly reward ABOVE level 4s. Tell me why you cant just right now give 0.0 above empire income. These changes are not far fetched at all. You alreayd have agents floating in space giving out missions in 0.0, why cant you add more of those? Why would you even think saying these new upgrades will put you on par with motsu is even acceptable?
If they are worried about isk farming then simply tie sov to these bonuses like we all thought you were going to do to begin with. Isk farmers that claim sov will become targets and be destroyed or simply wind up fighting for their space like everyone else, at which point they won't be farming they'll be PLAYING THE GAME.
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SavageBastard
Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.07 20:51:00 -
[6]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
You pretty much nailed it in general direction though the final implementation might differ. The goal is content which you can upgrade and unlock which is both unique and rewarding enough in income and general enjoyment terms whilst perhaps also opening up new professions and activities.
The system we have is very expandable and easily so from this point on. Adding additional upgrades and content those upgrades might unlock can be done as soon as the content is ready and even attached to existing upgrades.
1. That's great that the system is so expandable and enables you to create content and make 0.0 more valuable. 2. Why aren't you including this content with the changes so that we aren't stuck paying through the nose with nerfed space?
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SavageBastard
Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 02:02:00 -
[7]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Originally by: Salsbury Y'know, I have to admit that watching all this smack-talk about CCP from the people who don't like the changes is pretty funny. Epic pwnage by CCP!
It seems to me that the whole intent of CCP was to stir things up, reduce unused system sprawl, and make alliances really consider whether a system will be profitable to keep around. In this regard, I think they've already succeeded admirably.
In the 100+ posts I've read on this thread, one striking deficiency that I've noticed is the lack of almost any mention of cooperation, banding together, and INCREASING alliance inter-operation. This is, in fact, core to the design of what CCP is trying to accomplish. Getting more people out to 0.0, building new relationships between corps, encouraging renting out of sub-systems in alliance space, etc.
I've seen lots of people saying "small alliances won't be able to survive!" Well, start banding together with other smaller alliances, and become larger.
I've seen LOTS AND LOTS of funny PvP'ers whining that they simply won't be able to shoot enough stuff to pay the bills, while at the same time saying "mining is a **** profession" and the like. Well, it's time for you to learn how to cooperate with other players. You need to start getting some mining & industry going in your systems, to leverage those belts, rather than simply ignoring them, or ratting, then flying away. (You might even want to train some new skills, so you can produce some wealth in ways other than simply shooting stuff. You might be surprised.)
If it helps you to reframe the idea of cooperation, think of it as different strategic wings of a fleet. You've got some who are doing PvE ratting, protecting those who are helping to harvest those rocks and provide you with resources to build with/sell. You need to balance your skills & strengths to achieve the larger objective. One person can't do it all. That's the whole point of having fleets, corps, and alliances.
Think bigger than what you can do alone. Think about what you can accomplish together.
excellent clarity of vision I must say!
It is true and something we said from outset that unbalanced alliances who are 95% PvP/Fleet and 5% industry will be most affected by this as we are reducing their dependency on passive point sources and introducing greater active resource density to allow for passive income to take over.
The alliances who will benefit most are those who have or aim to have balanced compositions of people with different playstyles or even act as enforcers or protectors of the space with multiple rental agreements if they wish and we will add tools as we call the treaty system to help facilitate that.
Good god. What in the christ are you two even talking about? Which large 0.0 alliances are 95% pvp? And the whole point of Dominion was to ALLOW small alliances to hold sov. What you two just got all smug and self-congratulatory about is arguing that things should work exactly how they ALREADY DO.
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SavageBastard
Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 08:36:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Eint Truzenzuzex Greeting's to the Hive,
i personally don't see a reason why to wine about the new sov-system.
1. it looks promising, they need maybe a bit finetune it but let see the patch hit Tranz. If all go wrong CCP get panic and make proper adjustment's and ccp can do things quickly. ( look on the CVA disbanding ). 2. A question how should small alliance get there space ? CCP do not ad new space, so the one has to be redistributed. Higher coast + lower static income = consideration of holding Space. 3. And to be honest, (okay that would be an oldy) most changes they where heavily debated on the forms where good changes, for most of the players. People are quick at complaining slow on give out a "good job"
Thanks for this completely substanceless affirmation of CCP's plan. So far nobody with any clear grasp of what this actually means for 0.0 has come out in support of it as-is. If you're wondering why enemies like Atlas, ROL and Gonswarm are all in agreement on this issue it's because we all actually live in 0.0 and understand where these changes are headed vs. where they were supposed to go.
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SavageBastard
Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 09:52:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Deldrac
Originally by: gambrinous
FC: they have a period in their ally name! Troop: A what? MOTHER OF GOD Troop: those ****ers Troop: cheating ***got ****ers, I will not rest until the blow up Troop: a period killed my alt THEY ALL MUST DIE!!!! TROOP: WHAT? X? OK
Seriously, I would X for this op.
That's why your corp is dead.
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SavageBastard
Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 09:59:00 -
[10]
Originally by: dannyBOy16437
Originally by: SavageBastard
Originally by: Eint Truzenzuzex Greeting's to the Hive,
i personally don't see a reason why to wine about the new sov-system.
1. it looks promising, they need maybe a bit finetune it but let see the patch hit Tranz. If all go wrong CCP get panic and make proper adjustment's and ccp can do things quickly. ( look on the CVA disbanding ). 2. A question how should small alliance get there space ? CCP do not ad new space, so the one has to be redistributed. Higher coast + lower static income = consideration of holding Space. 3. And to be honest, (okay that would be an oldy) most changes they where heavily debated on the forms where good changes, for most of the players. People are quick at complaining slow on give out a "good job"
Thanks for this completely substanceless affirmation of CCP's plan. So far nobody with any clear grasp of what this actually means for 0.0 has come out in support of it as-is. If you're wondering why enemies like Atlas, ROL and Gonswarm are all in agreement on this issue it's because we all actually live in 0.0 and understand where these changes are headed vs. where they were supposed to go.
The reason all of the big alliances are agreeing that the new sov system is terrible... is because all the big alliances will have to cut the number of systems they own. So stop whining and accept you will no longer be having whole multiple regions all to yourself.
Next time just post "I have no idea what I'm talking about but it feels good to post" and you won't look so dumb.
Cause posting does feel good.
And you don't know what you're talking about.
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SavageBastard
Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 17:58:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Not sure why anyone would be surprised about the fact that there is massive opposition to these changes from 0.0 alliances who have currently covered the map with a static system of fortifications that cheaply cyno-jam and deny any realistic danger to their holdings while letting them sit back and collect income with less overall risk than the mission-runners in hisec suffer from can-flippers and the occasional suicide ganks.
Leave it to Jade to not read a thread and then claim that high-sec is safer than 0.0 because of can flipping.
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SavageBastard
Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.08 22:40:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Originally by: Hertford I like how Jade spews forth a veritable wall of words that is just a rehash of CCPs aims without mentioning any of the issues brought up in the rest of this thread. But then this is a terrible thread; Can you blame Jade for not reading it?
To be brutal. This thread is pretty much the same 20 people repeating "waaa-waaaa-it's-not-fair-waaaaa!" again and again and again interspaced with some more spam. As I said earlier - you guys are missing the point with Dominion. Its not about preserving the status quo its about blowing the status quo into a thousand little pieces and seeing what happens to 0.0 without an omni cyno-jammer security blanket for its current occupants.
You will need to struggle to pay upkeeps in Dominion. Thats the point. You will need to retract the size of your claims and focus to keep your head above water. You will need to adapt or die and if you can't survive there will be other players and player entities that can.
The status quo is boring and deeply unattractive. Eve 0.0 endgame needs to change.
Not sure how I can explain that any better for you.
You know a thread has reached its endgame when Jade has showed up to attention *****. Lock away.
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