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Obsidian Sun
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Posted - 2009.11.13 02:06:00 -
[1]
Can anyone tell me what advantages Minmatar ships have even left after all the nerfs to them?
Because right now I just came to the painful realization that even after all the training that I've done on my ships, it will never ever compare to the ships of other races. I've put up with the jokes about their ugliness (I actually find them quite beautiful, the whole scrapyard look is appealing). But it's frustrating as heck when you realize that you've been training for a year for the most disadvantaged ships in Eve. I had begun to realize this about a month ago when a 3 month old corpmate was tanking better and doing heavier damage than me on rats with a cruiser, and me by then almost a year old on a battleship with a t2 fit. Something's not right there.
Gallente have drones, Caldari have missiles, Amarr have lazors. All are very capable of achieving very heavy tanks. Matari ships are fragile as heck, with nothing comparable to the advantages given to other ships AT ALL.
The ONLY concrete advantage of Matari ships are projectile guns with its supposedly capless advantage. As if. With enough skills the cap drain from firing guns on the ships of other races are negligible so it's not even an advantage. Oh and did I mention that it has utterly poor DPS and tracking anyway and use a ton of ammo (Gallente and Caldari guns does too, but hey, they have drones and missiles which hit no matter what, so who cares).
In the olden days, they did have an advantage of speed for their HAC ships. Not anymore. Yet it's still touted as the primary advantage of Matari ships - Speed and Agility. As if it's supposed to make up for the massive advantages of other ships. A vague description that doesn't even come close to how matari ships actually are ingame. Their speed advantage is very very minor and limited to their smaller ships. Sure our HACs are some of the best, but then again so are the other races' HACs in their respective niches.
So what else is the raison d'Otre for Matari ships? If CCP likes it like that why not just remove all Matari ships altogether?  All my other corpmates who once flew pure matari had no choice but to branch out to other ships. That means most of us had to train for twice the time just to get an effective ship.
I have nothing concrete to suggest. I guess this is just a rant to vent off the frustration in the hopes that maybe just maybe CCP will shower more love on the matari ships. If we're supposed to be the 'speedy' race, then for goober's sakes, make it so. Our speed 'advantage' at the moment barely counts for much, we have no DPS/Tank advantage to speak off, and none of the perks other nations got (amarrian armor, caldari missiles, gallente drones). Nor are they really useful except for maybe scouting or solo ganking poor miners and of course - running away. And I sure as heck didn't train for a year just to become a scout or simply fleet support (as most of our bonuses are for fleet support - webs, scrams, target painters).
All in all, give a reason again to be thankful I trained to be a pure matari pilot. Because apparently the advantages of our ships are all just talk and their disadvantages plenty. Rebalance please, please don't force us matari pilots to train yet again for the ships of other races.
Compare the Pro/Con lists in the official wiki:
Minmatar Ships
Amarr Ships
Caldari Ships
Gallente Ships
The first thing that springs to your mind when reading the Minmatar ship advantages list is 'Bullsh**!'. Intentionally vague descriptions of advantages to mask the fact that they actully have nothing at all to compare to the other races.
Oh and I have no illusions. I think nothing will come out of this rant anyway. *SIGH*
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Walmatar
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Posted - 2009.11.13 02:29:00 -
[2]
You know that isn't the official wiki, right?
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Tirus Sinobi
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Posted - 2009.11.13 17:11:00 -
[3]
Fixed
...
Idiot |
De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Special Projects Executive
The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2009.11.13 17:16:00 -
[4]
Feel free to contract me all your "lol-useless" Minmatar ships. Especially any hurricanes or typhoons you may have. I will gladly relieve you of the burden of looking at them cluttering up your hangar while you train for some other race's ships.
--Vel
In the world of emoticons, I was colon capital d. |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.11.13 17:34:00 -
[5]
Ya bro. I totally fit my hurricane with 6 miner 2s. Then someone came a flipped my can. I shot him with my drones and he killed me.
Hurricane totally needs to be boosted.
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To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
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Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Cpt Branko
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.11.13 19:46:00 -
[6]
Can I have your Minmatar ships?
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Efrim Black
Gallente
Guardians of Misr
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Posted - 2009.11.13 23:29:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Obsidian Sun
RAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGEEEEE!!!!!
Got any extra vagabonds or hurricanes I can have?
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Xing Fey
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Posted - 2009.11.14 01:59:00 -
[8]
Drones do miss.
Missiles get massive damage reduction on moving targets.
Try again.
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Obsidian Sun
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Posted - 2009.11.14 02:51:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Obsidian Sun on 14/11/2009 02:52:36
Pft typical, ad hominems right off the bat. Even if it's not the offical wiki (I admit my mistake, heh), it still doesn't erase the fact that the only advantages of Minmatar ships acknowledged officially are 'speed' and 'versatility'.
Speed of course has been nerfed a LOT of times in past revisions. Not to mention what use is having a Level V MWD skill on a battleship? Or a Nagglfar? Other races' advantages continue on regardless of shipsize. Ours end at battlecruiser level.Anything above battlecruisers for minmatar sucks, and anything below are mediocre or outclassed by other ships in other races (except perhaps vagas and the aforementioned cane which performs about as well as Drakes and Harbingers for shield tanking). Sure, the phoon can be awesome... if you're 5 years old and have a gazillion SP. Compare this with the range of ship choices in other races most often used effectively in PVP.
Versatility is just one way of saying, you have to train for shield and armor and never come close to how effectively the other races' tank. The skill requirement to even come close to achieving what can be achieved in a few months in other races' ships is mindboggling. Sure we're 'versatile'. Might as well say, we have to train everything under the sun if we want to be good pilots. Or be content being a miner or a solo pirate. Not to mention despite the claim of 'versatility', ship bonuses only affect one type of weapon while still forcing the fitting of the obligatory missile launchers.
I do not mine at all. I supplement my PVP forays with missionrunning. So the comment on failfitting a cane is uncalled for.
Drones miss, yeah, but they're capless, ammoless, independent. Only instances they miss is if you release fighters/heavies on an interceptor.
Missiles get massive reductions on moving targets, yeah, but they always hit (when in range that is, and majority of PVP situations, you're always in range), not to mention, the moving targets thing only applies again for smaller ships since battleships and such are pretty much sitting ducks. And add a tackler into the fray (which is pretty much standard in fleet ops) and that advantage is taken away. Modules meant to stop speed are far more abundantly used than modules meant to counter drones or missiles or punch through armor/shield.
Both also do not have the very very narrow falloff range of projectile guns. (fit AC's and if your enemy gets too far, they're useless; fit Arties and if your enemy gets too close or move too fast, they're useless).
And yes this is a RAAAAAAAAAAAGEEE!!!! post LOL. I guess I just got VERY frustrated yesterday trying to come up with Maelstrom fit that even comes close to tanking 1000DPS and still deal decent DPS. At All Level V in EFT, one of the fits got at around 20 omni. Another averaged at 300 omni. And I looked over at my 3 month old corpmates' myrm with a 1300DPS tank and went a little crazy.
How much longer do I have to train to get that? Or is the answer actually 'never' (unless I buy expensive deadspace stuff)?
If you did it. Pics or it never happened.
I found an old thread from back in February detailing this more:
http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=23336
Anyway w/e.  Thanks for reminding me of the reason why I never post on the Eve forums.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
E-P-O-C-H
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Posted - 2009.11.14 07:14:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Obsidian Sun
Edited by: Obsidian Sun on 14/11/2009 02:52:36
Pft typical, ad hominems right off the bat.
Your whole damn post is an ad-hominem.
I'll gladly take any minmatar ships off your hands being a minmatar pilot myself.
Obvious Troll post OP is... 3/10
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CEO of Shadow Cadre
http://www.shadowcadre.com
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Veshta Yoshida
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.14 08:08:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Veshta Yoshida on 14/11/2009 08:09:03
Having fought primarily Matari hulls using only Amarr ditto the past year and a half I can say, with great conviction, that you are wrong.
Rifter, Thrasher, Rupture, Claw are downright unbalanced and a grid reduction is needed to bring them in line.
Only ships in game able to fit oversized buffers while being able to fit correct sized guns + tackle/drive-mod.
Stabber, Hurricane, Cyclone, Rapier, Vagabond .. hell all sub-BS ships are top of the pile (odd one is being Muninn) compared to other races.
Matari's only "bad" ship size are BS, and even there they have the mighty Typhoon plus with changes coming the whole line-up receive a massive boost so very much an unwarranted complaint.
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TimMc
Gallente
Brutal Deliverance
Extreme Prejudice.
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Posted - 2009.11.14 12:20:00 -
[12]
Cool story bro
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Murkelost
H A V O C
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.11.14 15:17:00 -
[13]
I started to train for minmatar ships from originally being focused at flying gallente / caldari ships. Well I still fly those too but the secret behind my way of playing is simply being able to adapt what I want to field depending on what has been asked for.
The different races surely has specific advantages, even down to a single ship area. There used to be a time when vagabonds were extremely great for speed and damage all together but as mentioned previously in the thread vagabonds has suffered greatly amist other ships from speed reduction. They simply lost their cutting edge and instead of making a somekind of balance to the field, CCP decided to do it the easy way yet again. Pure nerf...
However I must say that minmatar ships can dish out some nice dps volley, I fly hurricanes and munins on regular basis and they are wicked when it comes to alpha strike. So I can't agree on a 100 percent basis that minmatar is suffering to much and as far as I've learned there will be a boost on the minmatar damage output area.
If I am mistaken I apologize but there has been a post about changes on this issue.
On a overall basis I must say that active tanking ingame is ****.
It's not even close to what a decently setup fleet of HP buffed ships with logistics support can do on the field.
Also note that CCP has made several nerfs that has inflicted greatly on the solo PVP scene. Positive effects of this is forcing players to act on a group based idea instead of flying about on their own.
The downside is that alot of the unique advantages alot of the ships
have had is gone and tends to make the game alot more dull and less difference in how ships stick out compared to one another.
This is however not an entirely 100 percent accurate comment but still it has some coverage to what has happened in Eve.
It also worth mentioning that the result of each major nerf has only resulted in players finding new means of what ships and formations tactics is the "I win" tactic in combat, this is a pretty natural development, but its unfortunately that the common result has been that it ends up with CCP nerfing because something sticks out and is actually effective and puts a challenge to the game for others to break. I hope for more balancing terms of problem solving in the future instead of simply making ships "more crappy" because they have a good advantage in certain situations.
It's simply a situation of improving or the other way around.
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Dark 0verlord
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.11.17 01:58:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Dark 0verlord on 17/11/2009 01:58:08
The advantage on minny ships is the fact that they can achieve unrighteous speeds, hence the expression "speed tank".
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Efrim Black
Gallente
Guardians of Misr
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Posted - 2009.11.17 07:01:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Obsidian Sun
Edited by: Obsidian Sun on 14/11/2009 02:52:36
Pft typical, ad hominems right off the bat. Even if it's not the offical wiki (I admit my mistake, heh), it still doesn't erase the fact that the only advantages of Minmatar ships acknowledged officially are 'speed' and 'versatility'.
RRRRRRAAAAAAGGGGGGEEEEEEEE
Anyway w/e. Thanks for reminding me of the reason why I never post on the Eve forums.
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Helicity Boson
Amarr
The Python Cartel.
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Posted - 2009.11.17 13:48:00 -
[16]
Never mind that the rifter, rupture, thrasher, vagabond, broadsword, huginn, are all amongst the best ships in their respective classes or anything...
Speed baby. Oh yeah.
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Garr Anders
Minmatar
Thukk U
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Posted - 2009.11.17 13:54:00 -
[17]
Do you research.
I mean, really do it, don't just "google and be fine".
There is a very good proposal already on here:
Minmatar Ship Balance *Revised*
If you are so "worried" about minmatar ships support that one rather than just "complain" how they "lack" in "something".
That all together is just to vague to attract any serious attention and will just result in trolling.
-----
Garr Anders
"The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet.
- referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
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Pattern Clarc
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2009.11.17 14:40:00 -
[18]
Currently writing a revision to that proposal based on a compromise.
____
Domination Balance (Or how we fix the Tempest) |
Saiphas Cain
Caldari
101st Covert Ops
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Posted - 2009.11.19 23:13:00 -
[19]
Mr. Sun, I'm having a difficult time seeing your complaint about the Maelstrom. Whilst I admit I am completely unskilled in Matar ships and in artillery the Maelstrom immediately reminded me of the Raven, if the Raven used guns. The slot layout matches, armor, shield and capacitor are similar. The Raven has slightly more CPU but the Maelstrom has an amazing power output by comparison. The only reason most shield tank in a Raven is because they wish to retain low power slots for ballistic computers. Ravens can armor tank very well but unless you're in a fleet you've little use for so many free mid slots. I could easily envision a well armor tanked Maelstrom with plenty of gun assist modules doing nearly the Ravens job. So far as cross training... One does not simply "hop into" a Raven skill wise. If you expect to get anywhere you'll need a great number of missile skills, medium rail and supporting skills don't hurt for smaller targets, and you'll need an exceptional level of capacitor and shield skill to be capacitor stable and still have enough boost to survive. I've run the numbers though. There are differences between shield tanking and armor tanking in terms of final output ( time, HP to power ratios, etc ) but they can be made very similar with the proper rigs and modules. I won't bore you with a detailed comparison of shield tanked Ravens swapping out three Capacitor Control Circuits for Armor Repair rigs but I assure you it works fine. I'm just not seeing your complaint.
There is profit in suffering, but little repeat business. |
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