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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Wikis
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Posted - 2009.11.15 16:21:00 -
[1]
I would like to propose to introduce some mechanics to allow SP redistribution.
We can draw parallel between attributes remapping and SP redistribution. Remapping was introduced in response to the fact that when players created their pilots they were not fully aware of implications for skill training. When they gained more in depth knowledge of game mechanics they realized that choice of attributes was by far not ideal for their goals, however they could not change it. By the same token new players would often be very confused by attributes composition and may be discouraged from continuing playing the game because of that choice. Hence attribute remapping is a very handy tool allowing players to be more flexible.
There is a similar situation with skills. Veteran players have an assortment of skills which they on the second thought would not have trained at all, however at the dawn of EvE due to lack of information they were a necessesity. For example at the begining players had to train certain industrial skills, just to be able to earn money. Even though at the moment the players is pursuing a PVP career he still retains those industrialist skills from the past and vica-versa.
In addition certain skills are becoming obsolete due to changes in game mechanics. Imagine you were a pure Amarr combat pilot and only trained cruise missiles specialization for the purposes of Stealth Bomber. Now that SBs utilize Torpedoes Cruise missiles are useless. In that way CCP should introduce some mechanics to compensate for those changes.
I suggest that restrictions on such redistribution should be quite severe. Example of those limitations could be the following:
- Only allow redistribution once per specific time period (same as attribute remapping)
- Only allow redistribution of specific percentage of total SP, for example 5-10%
- Penalize amount of redistributed SP at some rate, for example if a pilot "unlearned" 1m of SP, then only allow 50% (500k) of SP to be injected into another skill
- Only allow SP to be redistributed within parent category, in other words skill points from spaceship command could not be redistributed to engineering
In order to make that game mechanics trully useful and prevent abuse such as complete shifts from industrial to PVP specs for instance (this is not WOW after all), the extent of those limitations should mirror the extent of changes introduced to game mechanics, as well as allow for certain error margin within career path. What I mean by "error margin" is that players are bound to make some decision with respect to training, which they will subsequently find unwanted. Current system penalizes those decision with maximum severity, in a sense that it does not allow any ammendments at all. However if we introduce skill redistribution mechanics, it will allow to take corrective actions with respect to skill sheet. Over sufficiently long time horizon veteran players will be able to alter mistakes of the past and convert unwanted SP they learned due to inexperience into something they deem more useful, and younger players will be able to correct there miopic decisions made in the short term.
Alternativelly, CCP could introduce some mechanics which would allow to change skills with respect to specific ship which they change in the next patch. However I would say this would be too cumbersome vis-a-vis system which will work in generic way (as outlined above) and will allow players to correct their skill sheets at will.
Again, this by all means should not be a complete WOW respec, but rather a very restrictive corrective mechanism.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.11.15 16:52:00 -
[2]
this is not WOW. this has been discussed to death before. you made the decision to train that skill. eve is about decisions and consequences.
not supported.
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Wikis
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Posted - 2009.11.15 16:59:00 -
[3]
this is not bul**** thread, so those ppl who cannot read my last sentence please do yourself a favour dont make yourself look like illiterate monkeys
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Comodore John
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.11.15 17:18:00 -
[4]
Is it that time of the month again already?
NO! EVE is all about making choices, the choices you make will have consequences. Even though you may not realize it, the skill you may not want may be useful sometime in the future.
Why do you want to report yourself as an ISK spammer? If you are one, just stop spamming already! |
Wikis
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Posted - 2009.11.15 18:06:00 -
[5]
well, you could argue same way about attribute remapping, in a sense attribute remapping is even much more agrresive change, than what im suggesting.
Thats not to say that im arguing that since we got attribute remapping we may as well get skill redistribution. Every game mechanics modification should be justified on its own. I bring previous experience only to draw an analogy here.
I don't think I'm being unreasonable here when I suggest system which is extremelly restricted.
One of severe drawbacks I see here is that there are people out there with extremelly focused skill sheet and certainly it makes their chars valuable assets. Should that proposal be accepted it will dilute their value. However if it will be implemented with set of severe restrictions which I suggest this dilution will only be marginal and overall "social benefit" (as we put it in economics) will outweigh "marginal cost" of focussed character value dilution. Hence according to cost-benefit analysis this change should be implemented.
But again this is all in theory and needs to be discussed.
Are there any real arguments based on set of reasons, not just that "it was like this for ages, because thats the game model, so it will stay that way".
In every decision-making process, one should weigh costs vs benefits. If benefits are higher than decisoin should go through. So far I see a lot of benefits in this system, and relativelly small costs.
Opinions ?
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Arwen Tyler
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Posted - 2009.11.15 20:49:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Wikis
Opinions ?
Stop being a 'tard and go back to wow
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Quazal Atreides
Gallente
Encarta Industries
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Posted - 2009.11.16 01:29:00 -
[7]
ok then i will use a real scenario, very similar one i used to discredit the removal of learning ..
If you want a job (as i do) as an archaeologist you have 2 options..
1 you start by doing the job as a volunteer and work your way up until you get sufficient skill that someone hires you or
2 you goto uni (which im doing) and spend 5 years doing Bsc and MA then you get hired to work in a field of expertise..
Now assume 5 years time i work in arch for 2 years then think i dont like this, i want to be a Doctor, can i simply change my degree and go work in a hospital... well no of course i can't ive gotto go back to uni to study another degree..
Now to me eve is like this, if i want to fly a Caldari BS i have to train caldari BS to level xx (bsc) then the skills that it requires to fly it well (MA) now i get in ship have 3 fights think omg this ship is S%^T and i want to fly in Gallenete BSs i now have to put in the time in training to fly this ship... so in fact having to re-train makes eve skills more like life than any other mmo i have played..
Obviously most people have played WoW and because the majority of the kids who play it didn't like having their talents being permanent they allowed you to change the talents for cost of a few gold, the reason being that most people who play wow have little to no long term attention span, which we obivosuly know that you need in Eve...
The remapping was brought in because of the complexity of creation new toons 12months ago often meant people chose otpions that had very very little effect in their game abilities but also when they 'dumbed' down the character creation they had to compensate by offering the older players a bonus thus the remap was born.
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Marlona Sky
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.11.16 03:00:00 -
[8]
Nevah!!!!
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
E-P-O-C-H
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Posted - 2009.11.16 09:45:00 -
[9]
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA wait... you're serious?
No... not supported.
=========================
CEO of Shadow Cadre
http://www.shadowcadre.com
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Wikis
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Posted - 2009.11.16 10:17:00 -
[10]
so basically you are saying that those ppl who had focused training in gallenete or amarr and who had cruise missiles specialization trained now that SB mechanics changed should shove those SP up their *&^% ?
cos now cruise missiles is no use for them at all, since they cant fly BS which utilizes them and equaly do not want to train them because it requires also a lot of other additional training such as shield , other type of guns etc
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TimMc
Gallente
Brutal Deliverance
Extreme Prejudice.
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Posted - 2009.11.16 11:33:00 -
[11]
Your tears are lovely, but go back to WoW.
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Quazal Atreides
Gallente
Encarta Industries
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Posted - 2009.11.16 11:53:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Wikis
so basically you are saying that those ppl who had focused training in gallenete or amarr and who had cruise missiles specialization trained now that SB mechanics changed should shove those SP up their *&^% ?
cos now cruise missiles is no use for them at all, since they cant fly BS which utilizes them and equaly do not want to train them because it requires also a lot of other additional training such as shield , other type of guns etc
another anology
i go down shop buy a mars bar, eat said mars bar... then think urghhh i didn't like i would rather of had twix, if i went back to the shop would they let me exchange the mars i have eaten for a un-eaten mars bar.... nope....
basically eve is like life in that once you do something it stays in done.... each action has a consequence and yes i am gallente who started to train missile skills then thought that given it was only going to be for one boat it would be useless so i decided against training missiles any further, and also if you have cruise skills then use them somewhere else... ie raven etc.... because in theory you will have some other of the skills needed..
just my tuppence.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.11.16 12:16:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Wikis
so basically you are saying that those ppl who had focused training in gallenete or amarr and who had cruise missiles specialization trained now that SB mechanics changed should shove those SP up their *&^% ?
cos now cruise missiles is no use for them at all, since they cant fly BS which utilizes them and equaly do not want to train them because it requires also a lot of other additional training such as shield , other type of guns etc
Stealth torp-bomber whine detected 
Basically, yes. Too bad, so sad, suck it up. Torps 4 -> 5 is only a 2 week train; the bomber change was months ago. And Cruise missiles are still in the game and still useful. The new stealth bombers are so unbelievably much better than the old ones that I am simply baffled that anyone using them could complain about a couple of weeks training time.
Skill respeccing inevitably leads to everyone flying FoTM builds, and it also means that low SP players are at an even greater disadvantage to high SP players. Make your choices and stick to them, stop trying to ride the fotm wave and crying because you're not in the "uber ship" every second you play.
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FU22
Imperium Signal Corps
Underworld Excavators
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Posted - 2009.11.16 13:42:00 -
[14]
I'm quite a bad cross trained character but I dug my hole now i have to sleep in it.
Not supported.
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Reno Morkuno
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Posted - 2009.11.16 14:19:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Wikis
...
For example at the begining players had to train certain industrial skills, just to be able to earn money. Even though at the moment the players is pursuing a PVP career he still retains those industrialist skills from the past and vica-versa.
...
- Only allow SP to be redistributed within parent category, in other words skill points from spaceship command could not be redistributed to engineering
...
I try to take it serious. First of all, do you see the contradictions in your own post?
Second, maybe there is a game design change in the future, which will make your now useless (in your subjective opinion) useful again.
Third, even if trying hard, I am finished with taking it serious and agree with the other people who replied to this thread.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Special Projects Executive
The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2009.11.16 14:24:00 -
[16]
Not supported, for many of the same reasons already given.
No skillpoint, imo, is ever wasted. It's only what you choose to do with them.
--Vel
In the world of emoticons, I was colon capital d. |
Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.11.16 14:36:00 -
[17]
Not supported
~ Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic |
Traidor Disloyal
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.11.16 16:14:00 -
[18]
Not supported due to the reasons stated above by people smarter then I am.
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I have three characters. One has Cov Ops V along with all the bells and whistles that goes with it. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.11.16 16:53:00 -
[19]
The only time SP redistribution should ever even be considered is if CCP outright eliminates a skill. Since I don't see that happening, a firm no.
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Vestus Regula
The Black Dawn Gang
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Posted - 2009.11.16 20:40:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Vestus Regula on 16/11/2009 20:40:16
Originally by: De'Veldrin
No skillpoint, imo, is ever wasted. It's only what you choose to do with them.
What abouft Defender Missiles lvl 5? 
Having said that, the proposal stinks. Attribute remap allows you do steer your character in another direction, not changing its history.
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darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.11.16 20:56:00 -
[21]
CCP will fix defenders for sure! *scnr* :p
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Special Projects Executive
The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2009.11.17 02:40:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Vestus Regula
Edited by: Vestus Regula on 16/11/2009 20:40:16
Originally by: De'Veldrin
No skillpoint, imo, is ever wasted. It's only what you choose to do with them.
What abouft Defender Missiles lvl 5?
Having said that, the proposal stinks. Attribute remap allows you do steer your character in another direction, not changing its history.
People actually trained that?! Have they no sense of common decency?
--Vel
In the world of emoticons, I was colon capital d. |
Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.11.17 03:02:00 -
[23]
I havent read what op said but excellent idea
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To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
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Life sucks and then you get podded. |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2009.11.17 04:51:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jason Edwards
I havent read what op said but excellent idea
And you promised, you wouldn't post drunk anymore.
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Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.17 10:37:00 -
[25]
No.
But it's only a matter of time before CCP do it.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.11.17 13:50:00 -
[26]
People training for flavour of the month is bad enough now, just wait until they can re-skill instantly with a few clicks.
(this is a terrible idea, no)
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ZigZag Joe
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.18 02:39:00 -
[27]
Not a chance.
I think it would be good if ccp got rid of some of the more grindtastic skills and refunded the sp to be distributed as one likes, but that is it. Skills like learning skills, JDC, advanced spaceship command/capital ships, and leadership. (remove and apply the effects as base).
But moving around any sp you like? hell no...
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.11.18 04:03:00 -
[28]
Originally by: De'Veldrin
Originally by: Vestus Regula
What abouft Defender Missiles lvl 5?
People actually trained that?! Have they no sense of common decency?
Never underestimate the power of an ill-taught newbie.
More seriously, there does exist two useless skills, so far as I can tell - Battleship Construction above level 4, and Industrial Construction above 3. Also, there's the four rare skills that never got implemented but can still be found if you've got a spare billion. But if you're training any of those skill levels, you're not a newbie, so I'm hardly going to cry if you walked into wasted SP with your eyes open.
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Skippermonkey
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Posted - 2009.11.18 11:32:00 -
[29]
This is a dreadful idea 
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Garr Anders
Minmatar
Thukk U
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Posted - 2009.11.18 12:44:00 -
[30]
TBH and IMHO we all know that this is a stupid idea.
Thus please stop posting in here (yes I did too to comment this) but rather look for good proposals than needs bumping and let this one die the death of page 2.
If you feel the rage burning, bump something usefull up rather than pointing toward the obvious.
Thanks :).
-----
Garr Anders
"The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet.
- referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
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