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Tista	Posted - 2009.11.15 21:41:00 - [1] got 1 invuln, and 1 xl shield booster set in the build Should I use another invuln, or a boost amp? -------------------- "this is the templar fighter used by carriers" Originaly quoted by Shania Eria.
Mashie Saldana BFG Tech	Posted - 2009.11.15 23:49:00 - [2] MWD, point, capbooster, invulnerability field and shield booster. Unless this is a PVE fit.
Zewdire	Posted - 2009.11.16 08:15:00 - [3] Try this, a simple setup that works. [Sleipnir, PvP] Damage Control II LADAR Backup Array II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive Warp Scrambler II Large Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Auxiliary Thrusters I Polycarbon Engine Housing I Valkyrie II x4
ASCHAYA Gallente Project Kiev	Posted - 2009.11.16 16:25:00 - [4] Very basic, switch gang link for a unstable neut if you cant use links. Tracking Enhancer after Dominion patch is the way to go when you use 425's! [Sleipnir, Basic] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Invulnerability Field II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Caldari Navy Large Shield Booster Warp Disruptor II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer I Hornet II x5 Hornet II x3
xxxak Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.16 20:03:00 - [5] Don't put a point on a fukin Sleipnir. Honestly, its a gang ship, not a solo pvp ship. I was in a Claymore the other day, and I got scanned down and tackled. I was able to tank 7 ships, INCLUDING A Falcon and CURSE, until my gang arrived and killed two of them. I survived in structure. I would have popped if I had fit a point instead of a shield boost amp to my Claymore. Sleipnir has an even weaker tank. No one solos anymore. If you want to solo, get a HAMDrake. Cheaper ans 80% as good. My Sleipnir tank usually includes a faction xlarge shield booster, invln field, boost amp, and cap booster. DCU II in the lows. Anything less is an insult to such a ship.
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.16 20:10:00 - [6] Originally by: xxxak I was able to tank 7 ships, INCLUDING ... CURSE, im calling bullshiat
Cavazos Caldari BlackWater Mercenary's	Posted - 2009.11.16 20:46:00 - [7] Edited by: Cavazos on 16/11/2009 20:47:40 Originally by: xxxak Don't put a point on a fukin Sleipnir. Honestly, its a gang ship, not a solo pvp ship. I was in a Claymore the other day, and I got scanned down and tackled. I was able to tank 7 ships, INCLUDING A Falcon and CURSE, until my gang arrived and killed two of them. I survived in structure. I would have popped if I had fit a point instead of a shield boost amp to my Claymore. Sleipnir has an even weaker tank. No one solos anymore. If you want to solo, get a HAMDrake. Cheaper ans 80% as good. My Sleipnir tank usually includes a faction xlarge shield booster, invln field, boost amp, and cap booster. DCU II in the lows. Anything less is an insult to such a ship. um bro my claymore tanked a curse hurricane zealot nd like 3-4 others w/ a point fitted nd a nd a shield boost amp in the extra mid slot so ur not proving a point to anyone right now.....a typical sleipnir PVP fit is 7x 220 II's small neut MWD XL shield booster invul II scrambler or disruptor medium cap booster DCII 3x Gyro IIs and a CPU unit w/ kitentic rig nd solidifier rigs......thats my fit nd hasnt failed me yet....soooo all the 425 fits are poo especially w/ the LSB nd not an XLSB....ohhh nd my claymore boost 1500 per cycle nd i tank fine nd my sleip boost around 1050 nd tanks just fine nd melts the opposing force
Susy Assulu Caldari Atomic Mexicans	Posted - 2009.11.16 20:58:00 - [8] Originally by: xxxak Honestly, its a gang ship, not a solo pvp ship. No one solos anymore xxxak, the font of all things ******ed
Brent riper Caldari Night Wolves Deprived of Existence by Mercenaries of the Night	Posted - 2009.11.16 21:00:00 - [9] since i know the actual player cavos in game il have to say the other 3 to 4 ships where probably t1 frigs or really pathetic cruisers, bc hes so bad ass. AND further more, Carthage must be destroyed!!
Cavazos Caldari BlackWater Mercenary's	Posted - 2009.11.16 21:01:00 - [10] Originally by: Brent riper since i know the actual player cavos in game il have to say the other 3 to 4 ships where probably t1 frigs or really pathetic cruisers, bc hes so bad ass. lol night wolves dont like me at all sooo they tend to lie.....silly mercs

snake133	Posted - 2009.11.16 21:06:00 - [11] Originally by: Cavazos Edited by: Cavazos on 16/11/2009 20:47:40 really.. you edited that ....
Cavazos Caldari BlackWater Mercenary's	Posted - 2009.11.16 21:07:00 - [12] Originally by: snake133 Originally by: Cavazos Edited by: Cavazos on 16/11/2009 20:47:40 really.. you edited that .... yea i figured id tell him the amount i boost on both ships thats wats i edited into it
bestower 1	Posted - 2009.11.16 21:29:00 - [13] Edited by: bestower 1 on 16/11/2009 21:29:43 I think he missed the "edit" comment's purpose. from reviewing the post(plays cpt. obvious)I believe the comment was on your complete lack of grammatical skills and/or comprehension of the English written language. granted I even had to edit my own post :) In other words I believe he was claiming the role of grammar police. not really the fact that you added new and/or important information into the thread.
fac3hunter	Posted - 2009.11.16 22:50:00 - [14] [Sleipnir, t2 pvp] Damage Control II Co-Processor II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive X-Large Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Warp Disruptor II 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Hail M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Hail M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Hail M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Hail M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Hail M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Hail M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Hail M Medium Energy Neutralizer II Medium Projectile Ambit Extension I Medium Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Valkyrie II x3 Warrior II x2
Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2009.11.17 00:22:00 - [15] Originally by: ASCHAYA Very basic, switch gang link for a unstable neut if you cant use links. Tracking Enhancer after Dominion patch is the way to go when you use 425's! [Sleipnir, Basic] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Invulnerability Field II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Caldari Navy Large Shield Booster Warp Disruptor II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer I Hornet II x5 Hornet II x3 Why would you use 425mm and not 220mm?
Smk56	Posted - 2009.11.17 01:19:00 - [16] Originally by: Lindsay Logan Originally by: ASCHAYA Very basic, switch gang link for a unstable neut if you cant use links. Tracking Enhancer after Dominion patch is the way to go when you use 425's! [Sleipnir, Basic] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Damage Control II Power Diagnostic System II Invulnerability Field II Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800 Caldari Navy Large Shield Booster Warp Disruptor II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 425mm AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Skirmish Warfare Link - Evasive Maneuvers Medium Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer I Hornet II x5 Hornet II x3 Why would you use 425mm and not 220mm? EFT warriors.
xxxak Caldari Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.11.17 07:47:00 - [17] Originally by: rubico1337 Originally by: xxxak I was able to tank 7 ships, INCLUDING ... CURSE, im calling bullshiat hmm to clarify, not all of them were gang-banging me at once. A scimitar tackled me first, and more of them kept warping in. I was jammed real fast, and capped quickly. My cap booster kept me alive till my ~25 man gang arrived.
Foulque	Posted - 2009.11.17 08:06:00 - [18] Originally by: xxxak Don't put a point on a fukin Sleipnir. Honestly, its a gang ship, not a solo pvp ship. Actually one thing the active tanking ships like the Slepinir and Sacriledge actually lend themselves to is solo. Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless Ohhhhh now I get it ________
Angry Poster	Posted - 2009.11.17 08:20:00 - [19] Originally by: xxxak Honestly, its a gang ship, not a solo pvp ship. I was in a Claymore the other day, and I got scanned down and tackled. I was able to tank 7 ships, INCLUDING A Falcon and CURSE, until my gang arrived and killed two of them. I survived in structure. My Sleipnir tank usually includes a faction xlarge shield booster, invln field, boost amp, and cap booster. DCU II in the lows. Anything less is an insult to such a ship. While I can't beleive you were able to tank 7 ships for longer then a few seconds (not with a curse on you) I do agree with the fitting advice. This ship requires an X-Large Shield Booster (faction is best) to be worth anything. You can get a really nice tank with the X-Large and boost amps. Enough so it's actually viable and on-par with a simple buffer (at least when fighting small numbers of hostiles). You can easily get a 1000+ omnitank for about 2-3 minutes with fairly cheap fitting. Enough to pop someone on the gate, deaggress, tank for a minute and then jump out. The only thing that will really hurt you is a curse or pilgrim... they'll reduce your cap so fast that you'll only be able to inject+boost (and that won't keep you alive long against a serious force). Just under no circumstances listen to the ones in this thread that are fitting a large shield booster on a sleip for PVP... they either don't know the difference between PVE and PVP or they simply don't know what the hell they're talking about.
Suas Perkone	Posted - 2009.11.17 08:21:00 - [20] Originally by: xxxak Originally by: rubico1337 Originally by: xxxak I was able to tank 7 ships, INCLUDING ... CURSE, im calling bullshiat hmm to clarify, not all of them were gang-banging me at once. A scimitar tackled me first, and more of them kept warping in. I was jammed real fast, and capped quickly. My cap booster kept me alive till my ~25 man gang arrived. That gang was almost as incompetent as you are. _________________________ HELLO! My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. PREPARE TO DIE!

Tista	Posted - 2009.11.17 08:53:00 - [21] Why, when asked invuln or shield amp.. am I getting scrammers thrown at me? I don't need to tackle.. other people in inties do that for me. -------------------- "this is the templar fighter used by carriers" Originaly quoted by Shania Eria.
Mashie Saldana BFG Tech	Posted - 2009.11.17 10:17:00 - [22] Originally by: Tista Why, when asked invuln or shield amp.. am I getting scrammers thrown at me? I don't need to tackle.. other people in inties do that for me. Because this thread is now about solo Sleipnirs
fivetide humidyear Gallente Fool Mental Junket	Posted - 2009.11.17 10:17:00 - [23] i'll answer the OP's question, then i'll boast about my sleipnir tanking 7 ships piloted as badly as me. The difference in the 2 is cap useage and can you deal with it. The shield boost amplifier is passive so it's always on, an invulnerability field can be neuted off. However an invulnerability field can be overheated for a long time to boost your tank slightly further than a amplifier. The amplifier also doesn't stack with gang mods but makes remote rep less effecient, a shield extender may make a slightly better buffer too for remote rep. so personally i would go with 2 invulns if you had remote rep, shield boost amplifier if you don't have any around and definitely the shield boost amplifier if you have crystals. (but i might consider looking up a LSE II fit as well for increasing buffer). <<insert pointless boast here>>
Lubomir Penev Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2009.11.17 10:52:00 - [24] Originally by: Smk56 Originally by: Lindsay Logan Why would you use 425mm and not 220mm? EFT warriors. In Dominion 425 will really be worth it, the increased falloff they'll get over their smaller siblings going real well with the ship bonus. It will be realistic to operate over heavy neut range, which is one of the biggest danger for a Sleipnir. -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog
Tista	Posted - 2009.11.17 10:55:00 - [25] Originally by: fivetide humidyear i'll answer the OP's question, then i'll boast about my sleipnir tanking 7 ships piloted as badly as me. The difference in the 2 is cap useage and can you deal with it. The shield boost amplifier is passive so it's always on, an invulnerability field can be neuted off. However an invulnerability field can be overheated for a long time to boost your tank slightly further than a amplifier. The amplifier also doesn't stack with gang mods but makes remote rep less effecient, a shield extender may make a slightly better buffer too for remote rep. so personally i would go with 2 invulns if you had remote rep, shield boost amplifier if you don't have any around and definitely the shield boost amplifier if you have crystals. (but i might consider looking up a LSE II fit as well for increasing buffer). <<insert pointless boast here>> Yes, I find that using an extender compared to a booster fit has it's downfalls, the size of the sleipnirs capacitor means it can get a good 8-10 shield boosts off, without even using boosters.. meaning it outs the extenders quite substancially for EHP, 1000 per boost with an amp. Even with neuts against the fit, the active side means you have options, not only that but you generally end up with more hp whilst using active anyway. -------------------- "this is the templar fighter used by carriers" Originaly quoted by Shania Eria.
Cavazos Caldari BlackWater Mercenary's	Posted - 2009.11.17 22:32:00 - [26] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Smk56 Originally by: Lindsay Logan Why would you use 425mm and not 220mm? EFT warriors. In Dominion 425 will really be worth it, the increased falloff they'll get over their smaller siblings going real well with the ship bonus. It will be realistic to operate over heavy neut range, which is one of the biggest danger for a Sleipnir. yea FALLOFF 220s have better trracking which means they at least might be able to hit the frigates tackling them while the 425s will be scrtaching for about 5-10ins then get a 150 hit then have the same thing going
Brent riper Caldari Night Wolves Deprived of Existence by Mercenaries of the Night	Posted - 2009.11.17 22:42:00 - [27] Originally by: Cavazos Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Smk56 Originally by: Lindsay Logan Why would you use 425mm and not 220mm? EFT warriors. In Dominion 425 will really be worth it, the increased falloff they'll get over their smaller siblings going real well with the ship bonus. It will be realistic to operate over heavy neut range, which is one of the biggest danger for a Sleipnir. yea FALLOFF 220s have better trracking which means they at least might be able to hit the frigates tackling them while the 425s will be scrtaching for about 5-10ins then get a 150 hit then have the same thing going fore once... cavazos ...is correct. :D AND further more, Carthage must be destroyed!!
Suas Perkone	Posted - 2009.11.17 23:04:00 - [28] Originally by: Brent riper Originally by: Cavazos yea FALLOFF 220s have better trracking which means they at least might be able to hit the frigates tackling them while the 425s will be scrtaching for about 5-10ins then get a 150 hit then have the same thing going fore once... cavazos ...is correct. :D You're both tools. No medium ACs will hit tacklers regardless in an orbit. Bigger guns gain a lot in Dominion. _________________________ HELLO! My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. PREPARE TO DIE!
Cpt Branko The Scope	Posted - 2009.11.17 23:15:00 - [29] Originally by: Cavazos yea FALLOFF 220s have better trracking which means they at least might be able to hit the frigates tackling them while the 425s will be scrtaching for about 5-10ins then get a 150 hit then have the same thing going In the words of a interceptor pilot a couple days ago on TQ >"wth" >"how did your 425s hit me -.-" Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2009.11.17 23:26:00 - [30] Originally by: xxxak Don't put a point on a fukin Sleipnir. Honestly, its a gang ship, not a solo pvp ship. I was in a Claymore the other day, and I got scanned down and tackled. I was able to tank 7 ships, INCLUDING A Falcon and CURSE, until my gang arrived and killed two of them. I survived in structure. I would have popped if I had fit a point instead of a shield boost amp to my Claymore. Sleipnir has an even weaker tank. No one solos anymore. If you want to solo, get a HAMDrake. Cheaper ans 80% as good. My Sleipnir tank usually includes a faction xlarge shield booster, invln field, boost amp, and cap booster. DCU II in the lows. Anything less is an insult to such a ship. More people need to listen to this guy and not fit points. Makes my job much easier. I'm Terrible:) BDEAL Wants YOU

Trader Jjenna	Posted - 2009.11.17 23:32:00 - [31] If you are seriously worried about frigates and feel your gang does not have other ships capable of shooing them away then yes, definately drop to 220's or even yes d180's. You will lose significant DPS, but I find that if I want to hit frigs, as other people state, 220's do not quire cut it unless you are able to pilot such that you can lower the target's transversal. This is not always easy to do. I think in Dominion 220's or 180's even + TE will be interesting to try on something as bulky as a Sleipnir. Its easier to kite and do other things in hope of getting your target's transversal down in something like a vaga - but in a Sleip/Claymore you are slower and MUCH less agile. Great ships though. I personally enjoy the claymore and run it full gang with link. No disruptor. Gang setup. Not huge on the sleip. Will be more interesting after dominion (425s or otherwise), but if I want a ton of AC DPS, I kind of like my vagacane. So much fun whacky fun - even if it is even less maneuverable. Its like a dragster with guns. Looks like one too.
Norwood Franskly Minmatar Fleet of the Damned Hellstrome Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.18 14:42:00 - [32] I used to use 425's (haven't flown a command ship in about 6 months) and I could hit frigs fine http://www.fleetofthedamned.net/kills/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=62 (that's me killing a crow with 425's on a sleipnir if you don't wanna chase up the link). People will probably scoff at me here and maybe it is a placebo effect I'm seeing but I do tend to get better hits with a 425 over 220 and despite what eft says I find the dps notably better, 425's overheated seemed to tear through stuff much faster then 220 or 180 did in same situation. I flew in gangs and used the pretty much cookie cutter setup Faction XL booster (Dread Gursitas iirc), 2 INV field, mwd and cap injector. If I recall right the cpu on it is really tight with 425mm guns, which basically requires the use of the faction booster, but was worth it imo. Tackle is not really needed and I wouldn't solo in a commandship (at least no in 0.0). In something that costs as much as the Sleipnir I want as much tank as possible, the lock time on it is pretty ****ty too so makes a crap tackler anyway. It was a really fun ship to fly but a bit expensive, this topic makes me want to brush the dust off of it and take her out of my hanger, maybe I'll wait until Dominion if the ships getting so love. I've also survived being neuted by a curse and a few other ships in Sleipnir, similar situation (backup arrived saved my arse), you can cycle cap boosters ok if curse pilot is a noob. ~~~ [ 2009.02.05 09:37:43 ] Louis Trenker > - Who's ship is this?- It's a Titan baby.- Who's Titan is this?- BoB's.- Who's BoB?- BoB's dead baby! BoB's dead!
Robert Rumpletweezer Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:47:00 - [33] As heretical and non-sensical as it may seem, this ship works well when ignoring its bonus and buffering also.
BlueMajere Caldari Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2009.11.19 11:02:00 - [34] xxxak is terrible at this game and should diaf.
Solid Star	Posted - 2009.11.20 16:37:00 - [35] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Smk56 Originally by: Lindsay Logan Why would you use 425mm and not 220mm? EFT warriors. In Dominion 425 will really be worth it, the increased falloff they'll get over their smaller siblings going real well with the ship bonus. It will be realistic to operate over heavy neut range, which is one of the biggest danger for a Sleipnir. What increased falloff? By how much? I want to love the Sleipnir, but the uses in this current age of Eve makes the ship so very limited. The close range version never locks fast enough to get a shot out, and the Arty fit is horrible.
Lubomir Penev Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2009.11.20 17:30:00 - [36] Originally by: Solid Star Originally by: Lubomir Penev Originally by: Smk56 Originally by: Lindsay Logan Why would you use 425mm and not 220mm? EFT warriors. In Dominion 425 will really be worth it, the increased falloff they'll get over their smaller siblings going real well with the ship bonus. It will be realistic to operate over heavy neut range, which is one of the biggest danger for a Sleipnir. What increased falloff? By how much? I want to love the Sleipnir, but the uses in this current age of Eve makes the ship so very limited. The close range version never locks fast enough to get a shot out, and the Arty fit is horrible. Autocannons get 10% falloff per tier in Dominion. Dual-180 stay as is falloff wise. 220mm gains 10% 425mm gains 20% -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog
Dasalt Istgut	Posted - 2009.11.20 17:44:00 - [37] The only place where points are mandatory is when you're flying with people who are incompetant. If I go out in a HAC gang with Vaga's and pulse Zealots I except the Zealots to not have a point and the Vagas to fit a point. When you're flying with newbs though (and only with newbs) you find yourself relying on the gang boost ship and scimitars to do the tackling. Go figure.
Brent riper Caldari Night Wolves Deprived of Existence by Mercenaries of the Night	Posted - 2009.11.20 19:14:00 - [38] Edited by: Brent riper on 20/11/2009 19:14:43 Originally by: Omarvelous Originally by: xxxak Don't put a point on a fukin Sleipnir. Honestly, its a gang ship, not a solo pvp ship. I was in a Claymore the other day, and I got scanned down and tackled. I was able to tank 7 ships, INCLUDING FALCON and CURSE, until my gang arrived and killed two of them. I survived in structure. I would have popped if I had fit a point instead of a shield boost amp to my Claymore. Sleipnir has an even weaker tank. No one solos anymore. If you want to solo, get a HAMDrake. Cheaper ans 80% as good. My Sleipnir tank usually includes a faction xlarge shield booster, invln field, boost amp, and cap booster. DCU II in the lows. Anything less is an insult to such a ship. More people need to listen to this guy and not fit points. Makes my job much easier. wow a falcon eh,, that must of been some sick dps that weak ecm ship was doing to be considered such a vicious threat, i know i saw a keres yesterday in my onyx and almost crapped my pants when it dropped my shield in jst half a volley of its civi gattling gun. i tell ya them dedicated ecm birds are vicous. (sarcasm excludes scorpion and rook as they are actualy vicious). AND further more, Carthage must be destroyed!!


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