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Ulwithy Arillious	Posted - 2009.11.17 19:49:00 - [31] Fun fact: a POS doesn't mean you can't do "their" sites.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2009.11.17 22:02:00 - [32] Originally by: Ulwithy Arillious Fun fact: a POS doesn't mean you can't do "their" sites. Yeah, it just means you have to either kill them first, or more often keep an eye on their empty pos as well as wh's. Which means corps will get bigger and bigger as it helps when dealing with "hostiles" (which is everyone else), while there will be less and less room for small corps.
Nishachara Minmatar Special Operations Corp	Posted - 2009.11.18 00:57:00 - [33] Edited by: Nishachara on 18/11/2009 00:58:21 I live in wh since i was 3 month old char... And its nice..yes its too crowded sometimes, we have a static class3 and most of them are occupied... but that does not mean you could not do sites... Most of the time people in this poses are offline so we do their sites and then anchor a can with a nice message in my sig :D... And sometimes it helps you if it is a pos in system where you kill sleepers... for example: ...if someone enters from k-space when you are farming somebodys system when he/she is offline he will probably think that that pos is yours...and will be rather reluctant to engage(happened a few times now :) ..) Or if neighbours are online...even better...we attack them and have a pvp-day instead of grinding sleepers... ...and if our neighbours seem like too much for us... ...we just close wh (sometimes under fire)and find another one... For me great thing about whs is that often situations and oportunities change and you have to adopt quickly... That and the feeling of flying a spaceship...not some metal bucket from gate to gate... Imao in all eve space local and gates should be removed..ok maybe not gates removed, but it would be very cool if you had to scan for every station, gate and belt in k-space, so you would have to explore every new system you come in first :)... Yes i too think wh-s are a little overcrowded, but i think that adding more wh systems would solve this problem...
rubico1337 Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.18 02:47:00 - [34] Originally by: Nishachara Yes i too think wh-s are a little overcrowded, but i think that adding more wh systems would solve this problem... WTB: super-deep wormhole sys that never have links to known space and rarely have links to wormhole space. slight skill loss when podded, and even with an up to date clone longer lasting holes between these deep-wormholes ability to jump caps between deep-wormhole systems within jump range of each other
Aeon Storm Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.11.18 07:34:00 - [35] Our corp is in a class 4, with static to class 2. Been there several months. The class 2's that link to high sec run about 80% occupied. Class 2's to low sec, maybe 30%. Null sec class 2's are rare from our hole, but I've only seen one with a pos in it. All that being said, the 4, 5, and class 6 holes run mainly empty. (We never see class 3's.) Our linking higher WH's are so underused, that Grav sites rarely if ever spawn in our own hole. (One in four weeks.) And yes our hole is NOT sitting on no-spawn mode right now. We have a constant stream of ladar, radar, mag, etc... coming in. Our conclusion is that Grav. sites are not being utilized in the higher WH's, so they are not despawning and circulating around. They're just sitting there. Not the case with the other stuff.
Elipan Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.18 07:42:00 - [36] Originally by: rubico1337 WTB: super-deep wormhole sys that never have links to known space and rarely have links to wormhole space. slight skill loss when podded, and even with an up to date clone longer lasting holes between these deep-wormholes ability to jump caps between deep-wormhole systems within jump range of each other Seconded. In all seriousness though, wormholes are getting a little overcrowded. At least the level 3-5 ones, seeing as how level 1 doesn't justify logistics/POS effort and level 6 requires a lot of firepower and an actual knowledge of the game (which many players lack ). I don't see adding a hundred or so more systems would help, however, because those would fill up with time then we'd hit this problem again. Also, I'm probably going to get some flame for adding to the problem, but I plan getting my corp out into Wspace as soon as I get the manpower to do so.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2009.11.18 07:55:00 - [37] Originally by: Elipan I don't see adding a hundred or so more systems would help, however, because those would fill up with time then we'd hit this problem again. Yes, and? Just add more again \o/ It's a win - win for everyone. I've been calling on more systems, all unconnected to k-space, for a long time now, pretty much since release. Good to see others with similar sentiment now. Quote: Also, I'm probably going to get some flame for adding to the problem, but I plan getting my corp out into Wspace as soon as I get the manpower to do so. If I spot you, I'll try to give you a proper welcome
Kyvon Glarner	Posted - 2009.11.18 15:54:00 - [38] Edited by: Kyvon Glarner on 18/11/2009 15:54:44 as i mentioned on Star Defender's blog, i had this (maybe bad) idea add another 2500 systems (since the devs said it was hard to restrain the programmers from actually making too many systems at the end) change WHs to say: hi sec leads to c1 lowsec leads to c2 0.0 leads to c3 then each class MAY link up to a higher or lower level class depending on its statics links... so to get to your Class 6 home from an empire fuel run you need to go through 1>2>3>4>5>Home. OR go to 0.0 >3>4>5>Home thus you know if youre up in a class 5/6 you know you'll get good sites along your groups skill levels and you wont get many visitors unless they are on your level as well. or just really lost. and this adds to the 'deepness' that the higher end players who never want to be in kspace want.
Dracthera Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.18 16:01:00 - [39] Crowded WHs means lots of PvP opportunities when nullsec is empty, which is a good thing. WH residents for the most part earn enough ISK to make up for their losses, so everyone is happy =). Apto Quod Ususfructus
Cyprus Black Caldari Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.18 16:17:00 - [40] Edited by: Cyprus Black on 18/11/2009 16:17:30 Through personal experience, wormholes in one region of high sec tend to repeat the same WH systems on a semi regular basis. I've lived and dwelled inside a wormhole POS and I've noticed our entrance tended to repeatedly open in certain regions, sometimes repeat systems. Try exploring wormholes in a different faction and region of high sec. Preferably less populated regions than Caldari space. ___________________________________ Originally by: Kortne EVE is an amazing game, but other players ruin it.
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:11:00 - [41] Originally by: Qui Shon you'll know that you don't actually "live" from the sites in your home sys, but of the ones in connecting systems. Therefore, >50% occupancy is too high. That's not the full trueth. You can't live just from your WH becouse noone cleans out the site-spawns at your connected system. So you have to do it yourselve to get them spawn in your system. As soon as more systems are settled, you get more frequently spawns in your system. With this you can get more ISK just out of your system.
Dandy Lyon	Posted - 2009.11.18 18:40:00 - [42] Originally by: Kyvon Glarner Edited by: Kyvon Glarner on 18/11/2009 15:54:44 as i mentioned on Star Defender's blog, i had this (maybe bad) idea add another 2500 systems (since the devs said it was hard to restrain the programmers from actually making too many systems at the end) change WHs to say: hi sec leads to c1 lowsec leads to c2 0.0 leads to c3 then each class MAY link up to a higher or lower level class depending on its statics links... so to get to your Class 6 home from an empire fuel run you need to go through 1>2>3>4>5>Home. OR go to 0.0 >3>4>5>Home thus you know if youre up in a class 5/6 you know you'll get good sites along your groups skill levels and you wont get many visitors unless they are on your level as well. or just really lost. and this adds to the 'deepness' that the higher end players who never want to be in kspace want. The problem with your proposal is cap ships. The big boys want/need them in the high end holes, but they can't go into the low ends. With your system, you'd have to build the cap ship in the high end system, then you can't get it all the way out to support your logistics runs. And, us little guys don't want them popping into our holes to blow our pos away. We can't supply enough manpower to protect the pos from a cap ship.
Requmonien	Posted - 2009.11.18 20:48:00 - [43] Edited by: Requmonien on 18/11/2009 20:48:42 I have just found a WH from a crowded hi-sec system. The wh system it connects to is empty (w/o pos) and has 15+ anomaly and 10+ sig. Lucky find is lucky.
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2009.11.18 21:34:00 - [44] They should move remove all static hi-sec exits instead move them to lo sec. That would accolish few things: More logistics to succesfully live in system - thus decaresing POS cogestions in wormholes. Buff to lo-sec. More pew-pew. Easy , supersafe poses , arent that easy and safe anymore.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.11.18 21:48:00 - [45] Yesterday I found a new class 5 - no POS and filled with signatures. That brings the expedition total to 2 occupied, 6 unoccupied. That's only 20% occupied. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Marchocias Silent Ninja's	Posted - 2009.11.18 22:44:00 - [46] Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Yesterday I found a new class 5 - no POS and filled with signatures. That brings the expedition total to 2 occupied, 6 unoccupied. That's only 25% occupied. Fixed for you. ---- I belong to Silent Ninja (Hopefully that should cover it).
Jonathan Yeah	Posted - 2009.11.18 22:46:00 - [47] Originally by: Marchocias Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Yesterday I found a new class 5 - no POS and filled with signatures. That brings the expedition total to 2 occupied, 6 unoccupied. That's only 25% occupied. Fixed for you. Yeah.
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2009.11.19 01:14:00 - [48] Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri Edited by: Santiago Fahahrri on 18/11/2009 23:15:14 Yesterday I found a new class 5 - no POS and filled with signatures. That brings the expedition total to 2 occupied, 6 unoccupied. That's only 25% occupied. Edit: fixed math fail It's not the Class 4+ that are the issue. It's the 1-3 sizes. As I said earlier the cost/benefit is not there for an explorer to scan them down right now (I have no proof of this but I don't bother with WH sigs anymore). It's easier to stick to normal exploration sites. I can understand why CCP may not want too many as they like to encourage PVP but at the moment its more crowded than nul or low sec. If they want explorers to stick with them they will have to increase the numbers, if not then they won't. A mechanic to get rid of unused pos's would also help.
foobarx	Posted - 2009.11.19 03:29:00 - [49] Originally by: Ulwithy Arillious Fun fact: a POS doesn't mean you can't do "their" sites. That's true, but if the corp is at all active "their" sites will be done already and they'll be working on sites in neighboring WH.
JonShannow Caldari Regante	Posted - 2009.11.19 07:15:00 - [50] Originally by: Zartanic It's not the Class 4+ that are the issue. It's the 1-3 sizes. As I said earlier the cost/benefit is not there for an explorer to scan them down right now (I have no proof of this but I don't bother with WH sigs anymore). It's easier to stick to normal exploration sites. I can understand why CCP may not want too many as they like to encourage PVP but at the moment its more crowded than nul or low sec. If they want explorers to stick with them they will have to increase the numbers, if not then they won't. A mechanic to get rid of unused pos's would also help. Class 5 if not there already, are definately headed towards saturation,, we have been in a class 5 since apoc, one static exit, h296 to another class 5, and we have gone from finding the odd occupied system next doorto having to close the h296 5 or 6 times in a day to get an unnocupied system.
Kyvon Glarner	Posted - 2009.11.19 08:11:00 - [51] Originally by: Dandy Lyon The problem with your proposal is cap ships. The big boys want/need them in the high end holes, but they can't go into the low ends. With your system, you'd have to build the cap ship in the high end system, then you can't get it all the way out to support your logistics runs. And, us little guys don't want them popping into our holes to blow our pos away. We can't supply enough manpower to protect the pos from a cap ship. the big boys cant fit cap ships into c2 or c1 holes as of now due to mass limits, so you dont have to worry. you missed the point that a 0.0 system would connect directly to a class 3, skipping the c1/2 systems for more noobs/carebear style players, so they can more easily get to the tougher sites with their bigger ships just change wh mass allowances a little to let c3 whs fit one through per wh maybe then collapse it. so they can get the caps out to the c4/5/6 eventually. without flooding a c3 with 5 dreads to kill someone's c3 POS.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2009.11.19 08:31:00 - [52] Originally by: Jojo Jackson That's not the full trueth. You can't live just from your WH becouse noone cleans out the site-spawns at your connected system. So you have to do it yourselve to get them spawn in your system. As soon as more systems are settled, you get more frequently spawns in your system. With this you can get more ISK just out of your system. For that to work well enough, you'd need an absolutely horrible pos saturation (occupancy) level of w-space, which would completely and utterly ruin every other aspect of it.
JonShannow Caldari Regante	Posted - 2009.11.20 08:20:00 - [53] Just an example of what I was talking about before, logged in a 7am, opened and closed 15 wh's because they were occupied or in a couple of cases they where unoccupied but had 3 null sec exits and a neighbouring system with a pos in it. Finnally by about 5pm I found an unoccupied wh with a few sigs worth doing, so yeah I would say class 5 is also reaching saturation.
JitaPriceChecker2	Posted - 2009.11.20 12:30:00 - [54] Oh , our wormhole has static c3 and what can i say is this : About 80% of systems has poses in it. The only empty systems are those with static 0.0. On the other hand it doesnt prevent us from doing "their" sites if they are off-line , or killing and podding them and then doing their sites. But still C3 wormholes are pretty much full .
Liz Laser Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.20 17:39:00 - [55] CCP thinks it's a problem that there are so few players in sov-space. Their latest expansion is an attempt to solve that. And yet, some of you think they should create more wormhole systems because wormholes AREN'T suffering from being vacant? Uhh good luck with that. Also, why isn't destroying a POS the proper solution for removing a POS? You don't need dreads to kill a POS. Is the logistics of getting enough battleships into the wormhole the problem? Is it simply impossible, or are people just too lazy and want CCP to do it for them?
Arik VanClaw Helljumpers	Posted - 2009.11.20 17:57:00 - [56] Originally by: Liz Laser CCP thinks it's a problem that there are so few players in sov-space. Their latest expansion is an attempt to solve that. And yet, some of you think they should create more wormhole systems because wormholes AREN'T suffering from being vacant? Uhh good luck with that. Also, why isn't destroying a POS the proper solution for removing a POS? You don't need dreads to kill a POS. Is the logistics of getting enough battleships into the wormhole the problem? Is it simply impossible, or are people just too lazy and want CCP to do it for them? I think if it were made easier to destroy a POS that would help. More experienced wormholer's can probably comment better than I. But in standard known space POS warfare, the attacker is already at a disadvantage that is hard to overcome in any way other than superior numbers/firepower (hence cap ships). Add to that disadvantage, the limitations of wormholes on mass, and it makes it very difficulty for an aggressing force to even assault a POS in a wormhole, much less actually destroy it. That is why I propose a mechanic that makes POS defenses weaker in wormholes, to account for the added inherent defense they provide in mass limitations on entrances.
Veranius Sigillum Militum Xpisti R.A.G.E	Posted - 2009.11.20 19:15:00 - [57] Originally by: Arik VanClaw Originally by: Liz Laser CCP thinks it's a problem that there are so few players in sov-space. Their latest expansion is an attempt to solve that. And yet, some of you think they should create more wormhole systems because wormholes AREN'T suffering from being vacant? Uhh good luck with that. Also, why isn't destroying a POS the proper solution for removing a POS? You don't need dreads to kill a POS. Is the logistics of getting enough battleships into the wormhole the problem? Is it simply impossible, or are people just too lazy and want CCP to do it for them? I think if it were made easier to destroy a POS that would help. More experienced wormholer's can probably comment better than I. But in standard known space POS warfare, the attacker is already at a disadvantage that is hard to overcome in any way other than superior numbers/firepower (hence cap ships). Add to that disadvantage, the limitations of wormholes on mass, and it makes it very difficulty for an aggressing force to even assault a POS in a wormhole, much less actually destroy it. That is why I propose a mechanic that makes POS defenses weaker in wormholes, to account for the added inherent defense they provide in mass limitations on entrances. We reinforced a medium POS in a C3 and then came back the next day and blew it up. It's not impossible, but it takes a long time. And this was before we moved out to 0.0 as well. I will say that the 0.0 wormholes are less used by the residents and are less inhabited in general. We have found a few inhabited WHs, but generally not. Even back in the days of living in a wormhole we rarely found an inhabited C4, but I can't speak to anything less than a C4, cause we really don't bother with anything less.
Magnum III Journey On Squad	Posted - 2009.11.20 19:15:00 - [58] Originally by: Qui Shon Edited by: Qui Shon on 16/11/2009 08:17:00 Yeah, it's getting crowded. Means it's too easy, especially now that everything is documented and guide'ified as extensively as it is, so that any numpty can be a pro. Come on CCP, make w-space living tougher, randomise, have sleepers bust pos's, make it deeper (new systems not connected to k-space), make some super-sicrit signature spawn at 257 au from a planet tough enough so the first 100 who try it get owned by the sleepers, randomise the spawns, and DO NOT copy this site to sisi whatever you do, but make sure its rewards are glorious. And....well, you get the general idea I guess. I like your point, nice. make it mnore dynamic, besides didn't they promis they would revisit it? It is too easy to document imo, it needs to be more dynamic, yes.
Tau Cabalander Caldari	Posted - 2009.11.20 23:47:00 - [59] So the people that don't want POS in w-space don't want T3 either? Where do you think they come from? The price will only come down as w-space becomes more occupied.
Malshuraan	Posted - 2009.11.25 07:24:00 - [60] I agree, wormholes are full. Out of the 20 something wormholes I scanned today 15 were class2. All of which were pos'd.

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