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Ariel Dawn Perkone	Posted - 2009.11.17 02:44:00 - [31] Originally by: steveid why does everyone think that all the races guns, ships and capabilities should be exactly matching. Its ****ing stupid. This kind of reply is stupid; nobody is suggesting everything should be the same. Scorch simply falls far outside of the norm. Scorch has more optimal than Tachyon IIs, 1400 IIs, or 425 Railgun IIs using high damage ammo (not T2) and their equivalent for gun tiers.
Darthewok Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.17 03:04:00 - [32] Amarr guns should be better than other races' guns just as Caldari EWAR, Gallente Drone boats and Minmatar Speed should be better than other races. Because that is what each race depends on to differentiate. Unless you want 4 homogeneous races. V. boring. Of course the degree to which Amarr guns should be better is debatable. Races' PVP advantage rises and falls, its the nature of EVE. Minny may soon overtake Amarr as FOTM anyway. Best to cross train 2 or more races in the long term to be nerf-proof.
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2009.11.17 03:05:00 - [33] Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 17/11/2009 03:09:09 Originally by: Cibo Seidensha 7 MP II wont fit on a normal Geddon either. You need cap boosters, MWD, plates... So use Dual Heavys. :P [Armageddon, Plates] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Adaptive Nano Plating II Adaptive Nano Plating II Damage Control II 100MN MicroWarpdrive II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 DDO Photometry Tracking Disruptor I, Tracking Speed Disruption Mega Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency L Mega Pulse Laser II, Multifrequency L [empty high slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] [empty rig slot] Ogre II x5 What? This fits fine. 21632 / 21656.25 Also, to reply to the thread, I find as a dual Gallente / Amarr pilot (I can use Mega Pulse IIs now) I find that I still prefer Gallente for brawling and I tend to use Amarr more when I am not sure what I'll encounter. I feel like the current strategy with Amarr gives a bit of flexibility, where with Gallente we know plate/neutrons/mwd/web -> go. Amarr you can bounce between nano setups and tank setups with ease. Gallente boats don't go fast enough for that so it's not usually a good idea, unless you specify what ship. Thing is, there are plenty of ships in Eve and lots of variety. Just because they have scorch doesn't mean it is ALWAYS USED. And on ships that it is ALWAYS USED ON just gives them a role. Do you fit Spike to Thoraxes and snipe with it? No? Do you fit scorch to a Maller along with a rack of FMPL II? No? Come on guys. www.siigarikitawa.com ò www.eohpoker.com ò Buy a GTC
Marko Riva Adamant Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.17 03:28:00 - [34] Scorch really is too much, pulse lasers already have good range but gets silly with scorch. Add to that the instant switching and that means you can simply select which 'mode' you want for each target. It's just too much range, too fast to change crystals and not enough penalties while dealing good dps. AC's don't hold up (dominion ones still won't) and blasters are just fecked compared to pulses. ----------- I think, therefore I'm single. Alliance creation service, also corp updates
fatherted1989 Red Horizon Inc	Posted - 2009.11.17 03:47:00 - [35] Originally by: steveid why does everyone think that all the races guns, ships and capabilities should be exactly matching. Its ****ing stupid.
SpaceMagic Amarr The Arrow Project	Posted - 2009.11.17 04:05:00 - [36] stop complaining..Adapt! ffs
Dabljuh	Posted - 2009.11.17 04:14:00 - [37] Edited by: Dabljuh on 17/11/2009 04:14:14 It's not just scorch. Pulses are vastly OP when compared to other short range weapon systems. Best range AND by far the best range-relative tracking. (Compare blasters who are worst at both) Scorch by itself is vastly OP when compared to other "short range weapon"-"long range tech 2 ammunitions". Amarr ships are strong, but not noteworthily OP. Result: Nerf Scorch AND Nerf Pulses. Ships are fine. Originally by: SpaceMagic stop complaining..Adapt! ffs -> Everyone flies amarr until the next nerf?
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.17 04:50:00 - [38] Edited by: Diomidis on 17/11/2009 04:51:43 Well...yes, Pulses are good - RP wise it fits, game-wise it fits. And do not use "raw EFT" data to prove things - at least not like the bikini argument above... For example, yes, range is OP, DPS looks OP in EFT, and actually IS good in RL... BUT...BUT... Scorch remains an EM heavy dmg ammo - great for using against EM weak targets, way less than optimal for armor tanking stuff - even T1 BC/BSs... Example of EFT whoring: Geddon Buffer tank Mule Setup 3x 1600mm RT, 1x EANM, DC II, 3x Trimarks... EM res: 68.1% Thermal: 58.6% Kinetic: 52.2% Explosive: 49% EFT EHP vs. Uniform dmg type distribution (25% each) : 115,191 EHP The above Geddon vs. Vs. 100% Explosive dmg (say Bane Torpedoes)= 106,759 EHP Vs. Null (55% Ther, 45% Kin)= 111,933 EHP Vs. Barrage (90% Expl, 10% Kin) = 108,650 EHP Vs. Scorch (82% EM, 18% Ther) = 136,339 EHP And keep in mind that the difference is not as pronounced on a BS as it would be on smaller stuff, as the huge BS Hull with a 60% uniform resistance due to DC II is a big percentage of the total EHP. More EFT whoring! EFT reports: Vs. 100% Explosive dmg (say Bane Torpedoes)= 71,723 Armor EHP Vs. Null (55% Ther, 45% Kin)= 82,555 Armor EHP Vs. Barrage (90% Expl, 10% Kin) = 75,998 Armor EHP Vs. Scorch (82% EM, 18% Ther) = 108,822 Armor EHP So, if I am a bored EFT *** I can say that the average T1 armor tanked ship has roughly: 34% better tank against Scorch than Explosive Missiles / Drones etc. 30% better tank against Scorch than Barrage 24% better tank against Scorch than Null WoW...BOOST SCORCH!!!! Some ppl could make a thread with the above argument -> that's for short-seeing at EFT stats and graphs...oh, and Matlab graphs and stats are also within that logic, just fancier. You could also break thins down to counter ppl arguing that EMP is not good enough etc...you can argue about anything, revealing thins while concealing other in the process. Yes, scorch is good, but not THAT good as ppl imply, and ships using scorch are not THAT good as ppl imply... Join the Biggest Greek Corp!** www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Jana Tanaka Caldari Tanaka Industries Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.17 05:08:00 - [39] Edited by: Jana Tanaka on 17/11/2009 05:13:31 Originally by: Ariel Dawn Don't kid yourself... ... Armageddon - AN Multifreq - 760 DPS Megathron - CN Antimatter - 695 DPS Tempest - RF EMP - 561 DPS There, happy?... I have no idea how you got those funny numbers.. ah yes.. off to EFT... Megathron 3HS - NBCII - CN AM - 909 dps - 0.074 tracking Armageddon 3HS - HPLII - AN MF - 855 dps - 0.042 tracking Both have 125 m3 bandwith. Geddon can fit MDW/Injector/Point. Megathron has another slot for Web/TD/Whatever, Both ships have rougly the same EHP with damage mods. 4HS on a Geddon are a joke. CPU issues will force you to sacrifice a good chunk of tank, unless you nano it and well... , thats a flying coffin. So the Geddon can ** the Megathron from a distance, while the Mega will face** the Geddon once close. The free midslot allows it either to fit a web to capitalize its close rande advantage or a TD to migitate the Geddons range advantage during approach. You made your point. Propaganda Galore.
Ariel Dawn Perkone	Posted - 2009.11.17 05:19:00 - [40] Originally by: Jana Tanaka Edited by: Jana Tanaka on 17/11/2009 05:13:31 Originally by: Ariel Dawn Don't kid yourself... ... Armageddon - AN Multifreq - 760 DPS Megathron - CN Antimatter - 695 DPS Tempest - RF EMP - 561 DPS There, happy?... I have no idea how you got those funny numbers.. ah yes.. off to EFT... Megathron 3HS - NBCII - CN AM - 909 dps - 0.074 tracking Armageddon 3HS - HPLII - AN MF - 855 dps - 0.042 tracking Both have 125 m3 bandwith. Geddon can fit MDW/Injector/Point. Megathron has another slot for Web/TD/Whatever, Both ships have rougly the same EHP with damage mods. 4HS on a Geddon are a joke. CPU issues will force you to sacrifice a good chunk of tank, unless you nano it and well... , thats a flying coffin. So the Geddon can ** the Megathron from a distance, while the Mega will face** the Geddon once close. The free midslot allows it either to fit a web to capitalize its close rande advantage or a TD to migitate the Geddons range advantage during approach. You made your point. Propaganda Galore. I don't know if you've noticed, the Armageddon has an extra lowslot over a Megathron. No Mega in a realistic non-fail setup fits 3 MagStabs, 2 max is common where 1 (triple 1600) is the most survivable. Don't talk about 'EFT' when you post a stupid fit as a counter-argument. Also it's pretty hilarious that an Armageddon under the effects of a range disruption script Tracking Disruptor still has more range than a Megathron. For the record I'm trying to get some focus on fixing Scorch because it would be bad when the inevitable whine-patrol sets it's sights on lasers/Amarr and gets the entire weapon system nerfed when instead getting Scorch balanced beforehand could possibly avoid this.

Jana Tanaka Caldari Tanaka Industries Inc.	Posted - 2009.11.17 05:22:00 - [41] Edited by: Jana Tanaka on 17/11/2009 05:23:10 So the cycle of sophistry starts again. Yawn.
Oneiros IV Stella Polaris.	Posted - 2009.11.17 05:50:00 - [42] The only problem of scorch is that it works best on realistic ranges perfect for common combat situations. In fact it's hard to call a "Scorch issue" it's more an issue of all other weapon systems / t2 ammo.
Widshin	Posted - 2009.11.17 06:32:00 - [43] You are forgetting about the built-in bonus to lasers - all lasers are designed to be stronger weapons, this being offset by their cap usage, thus the "cap usage" bonus on several amarr ships. 2.4/s - Neutron Blaster II 3.5/s - Mega Pulse II 3.3/s - 425 Rail II 5.0/s - Mega Beam II 5.3/s - Tachyon Beam II
Seriously Bored Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.17 07:01:00 - [44] Originally by: Widshin You are forgetting about the built-in bonus to lasers - all lasers are designed to be stronger weapons, this being offset by their cap usage, thus the "cap usage" bonus on several amarr ships. 2.4/s - Neutron Blaster II 3.5/s - Mega Pulse II 3.3/s - 425 Rail II 5.0/s - Mega Beam II 5.3/s - Tachyon Beam II Right...except CCP forgot that's how they balanced them a long ago. Amarr ships should have one less damage bonus than other ships in the same class to counteract their higher base DPS. That just isn't the case when you look at the Amarr ships that actually get flown. Obviously, the exception is the Apoc. And that's because it has some ridiculous range.
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2009.11.17 07:48:00 - [45] Edited by: Jojo Jackson on 17/11/2009 07:54:38 To compare amunition on it's own is pur fail. Amarr Ships don't have damage modifiers most times and if just one (except very view T2). Gallente, Minmatar and Caldari do have modifiers most times (if they are turret based). You need to take a look at tracking, fitting requierment and most important requierments to fire a weapon too. It's cool to have more range then you but does not help, if I'm NEUTed to death and can fire at all! Originally by: Ariel Dawn Also it's pretty hilarious that an Armageddon under the effects of a range disruption script Tracking Disruptor still has more range than a Megathron. Amarr can say the same about tracking. Once you are close (jump to 0) Amarr ships are dead. NEUT + TD and they either can'r fire at all or if they can't hit you anymore if you move.
Cibo Seidensha Amarr Biotronics Inc. Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.11.17 10:37:00 - [46] Edited by: Cibo Seidensha on 17/11/2009 10:37:29 Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 17/11/2009 03:09:09 Originally by: Cibo Seidensha 7 MP II wont fit on a normal Geddon either. You need cap boosters, MWD, plates... So use Dual Heavys. :P ... What? This fits fine. 21632 / 21656.25 Nice try, but this does not fit. 20625 is the maximum powergrid for the Geddon. You are using a +5% implant...
fivetide humidyear Gallente Fool Mental Junket	Posted - 2009.11.17 11:22:00 - [47] Originally by: Cibo Seidensha Edited by: Cibo Seidensha on 17/11/2009 10:37:29 Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 17/11/2009 03:09:09 Originally by: Cibo Seidensha 7 MP II wont fit on a normal Geddon either. You need cap boosters, MWD, plates... So use Dual Heavys. :P ... What? This fits fine. 21632 / 21656.25 Nice try, but this does not fit. 20625 is the maximum powergrid for the Geddon. You are using a +5% implant... ooops :) siigari in rubbish at eve non shocker. maybe cash in a plex and add faction will work? but an ancillary current router in a rig slot is nice. allows mwd, heavy cap booster and a (probably solace) remote repper on top 7x MP II (scorch) 1x large solace remote rep 1x 100mn MWD II 1x Heavy cap booster II 1x conjunctive ECCM 2x 1600mm RT plates 3x heat sink II 2x ANP II 1x IFFA damage control / pseudoelectronic (i can't remember) 1x large ancillary current router 2x trimark
Ap0ll0n Gallente Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.11.17 12:30:00 - [48] Originally by: Ariel Dawn Stuff.. Maybe people would take you seriously if you posted with your main.. The only "problem" i see with lasers, is the fact that they can instantly switch ammo, so while i get point on a ship @ 28km, i use scorch while i burn to the target, and when i reach 15km, i stop my guns, switch to ANMF and start burning again.. You cant do that with ANY other weapon system. Fixing reload time would greatly benefit the other races. Scorch is not broken, neither are any of the other T2 long range ammo, although i wouldn¦t mind if Null would get a bit more optimal.
Kazang Gallente Wrecking Shots	Posted - 2009.11.17 13:19:00 - [49] Scorch range is fine, it is supposed to be a long range ammo after all but its dps at that range is far too high. Autocannons with barrage do less dps at a mere 3km let alone 25km. Kazang
Madla Mafia	Posted - 2009.11.17 14:05:00 - [50] Originally by: baltec1 Scorch is balanced, be less ****. End of thread.

wallenbergaren	Posted - 2009.11.17 14:37:00 - [51] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa Do you fit Spike to Thoraxes and snipe with it? No? Yes :D [Thorax, snipe] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Computer I, Optimal Range Tracking Computer I, Optimal Range Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M 250mm Railgun II, Spike M Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Algid Hybrid Administrations Unit I Hammerhead II x5
Cibo Seidensha Amarr Biotronics Inc. Majesta Empire	Posted - 2009.11.17 15:00:00 - [52] Ok , now that we got the fittings all done... What about the fact that Scorch does mostly EM damage and that almost anything you might shoot it at will either have an armor buffer tank with a huge EM resistance, or be a shield buffered sniper hac, in which case your Scorch wont reach it anyway? And why are the exceptions to this, namely shield buffered gank-BCs, like harbs, drakes and canes, considered FOTM if scorch is so imba and broken that they should actually be utterly useless, operating a shield buffer in scorch range!? That should be suicidal, right?
To mare Amarr Advanced Technology	Posted - 2009.11.17 15:03:00 - [53] some time ago CCP gave pulse laser a tracking boost during the nano era. now nanoships are gone or at least they go much slower, that tracking boost need to go and maybe pulse wont be so much OP like they are now. also remember that laser can switch ammo with no penalty and this mean they can use scorch for long range and switch to T1 ammo if the enemy get close, while the other ship are stuck with the tracking penality of T2 ammo or have to wait 10s to reload and 10s its quite alot of lost dps. tldr: remove the tracking buff to laser its no longer necessary (or boost as well all the others weapon system)
Jojo Jackson	Posted - 2009.11.17 15:10:00 - [54] Originally by: To mare some time ago CCP gave pulse laser a tracking boost during the nano era. now nanoships are gone or at least they go much slower, that tracking boost need to go and maybe pulse wont be so much OP like they are now. also remember that laser can switch ammo with no penalty and this mean they can use scorch for long range and switch to T1 ammo if the enemy get close, while the other ship are stuck with the tracking penality of T2 ammo or have to wait 10s to reload and 10s its quite alot of lost dps. tldr: remove the tracking buff to laser its no longer necessary (or boost as well all the others weapon system) Laser allready have the worst tracking of all Turrets if you count ship-bonus which you have to count! But you can have the range as soon as ALL Amarr ships get a real damage-bonus and lose the stupid cap-bonus which immo should be spezial-race-buldin-bonus for all Amarr-Ships.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2009.11.17 15:55:00 - [55] Uh excuse me but I thought Amarr sucked! Wait no that was over a year ago when they were made better...I'm sure that's right. Wait! I thought arty's sucked now with blasters chasing from behind demanding their suck is more?!?! Wait no let's just demand ccp nerf lazors again so the little nooblets who try to grow a brain and show up here with stats can absolutely torture us long timers to death with this endless cycle. Yay.
Grarr Wrexx	Posted - 2009.11.17 16:02:00 - [56] Originally by: arbiter reformed Edited by: arbiter reformed on 16/11/2009 22:44:15 nerf torps 1kdps at 60km is op Originally by: Sidus Isaacs sac is mediocre at best you high? Prove him wrong.
Ariel Dawn Perkone	Posted - 2009.11.17 16:54:00 - [57] Originally by: Ap0ll0n Originally by: Ariel Dawn Stuff.. Maybe people would take you seriously if you posted with your main.. I've been flying with a group of NPC corp pirates for a very long time. We haven't posted a killmail for a very very long time (lot of 'pro-pvpers' check boards before engaging), and despite being -10 people assume we're alts since our histories say NPC corp, we get a ridiculous amount of people losing their fancy ships to us. A lot of the nerd-rage angry posters in this thread seem to be misinterpreting the situation. I honestly can't believe that someone can justify the massive discrepancies between Scorch and other long range ammos (nobody has really said anything asides from NO UR DUMB or untrue 'facts'). Compare ships people actually use that are suited for the weapon system. Prophecy to a Brutix is a silly match; I was comparing the Armageddon to the Mega/Tempest because those ships are the most similar across races in their roles. And pretty much every Amarr ship has a damage bonus or a synergistic set of bonuses (like the Apoc). EM's resist on standard 2EANM/DC tanks is the highest, however heavy tanked Tri-Hard setups have EM as the lowest resist. Furthermore, Pulses do Blaster-level DPS, except at 3 times the range. Seriously; Scorch 45km Optimal 10km Falloff Barrage 6km Optimal 30km Falloff Null 11km Optimal 16km Falloff And comparable DPS to blasters (thanks to Amarr's lowslot advantage). If you think that's even remotely balanced, guess what, you're either misinformed or flying FotM.
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2009.11.17 17:07:00 - [58] It's not that I care if ones race weapons is overpowered or not it's that people constantly come to the forums about these "concerns" and thus history repeats itself thus making me
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.11.17 17:50:00 - [59] Scorch is great. It's time to look at the other T2 ammo types.
Grut The Protei	Posted - 2009.11.17 18:06:00 - [60] Edited by: Grut on 17/11/2009 18:06:27 Originally by: Jovialmadness It's not that I care if ones race weapons is overpowered or not it's that people constantly come to the forums about these "concerns" and thus history repeats itself thus making me Very literally infact, 'cause about 4? years ago pulse got buffed to have a ..... wait for it ...... 50km range on radio. Now with T2 and tings the range has crept back out to 50km and guess what EXACTLY the same threads have emerged so the cycles repeating. ***SPOLIER DONT READ IF YOU DONT WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS**** In about a year CCP will conclude that pulse are the only mid range guns (AC's and Blasters being short range) and mid range guns win eve for BS combat. While its noted that pulse are OK on cruisers and frigs due to higher speeds CCP will say WTF and nerf all pulse's optimal by 30%. Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know... Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought



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