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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.11.20 00:16:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Avon
Edited by: Avon on 19/11/2009 20:03:24
Democracy sucks anyway.
You are in a plane and the captain and the co-pilot both fall ill and are unable to fly...
There is a qualified pilot on the plane.
There are several rows of drunken football fans.
In a meritocracy you are going to live.
In a democracy you are going to plunge to your doom whist rather rude sporting chants are slurred through the PA system as the most popular football fan looks for the cup holder.
Letting everyone have an equal say is a pretty terrible idea.
The qualified pilot then sterilizes the male football fans who obviously have inferior DNA and impregnates their wives.
SKUNK
(o)
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.20 00:57:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Le Skunk
Originally by: Avon
Edited by: Avon on 19/11/2009 20:03:24
Democracy sucks anyway.
You are in a plane and the captain and the co-pilot both fall ill and are unable to fly...
There is a qualified pilot on the plane.
There are several rows of drunken football fans.
In a meritocracy you are going to live.
In a democracy you are going to plunge to your doom whist rather rude sporting chants are slurred through the PA system as the most popular football fan looks for the cup holder.
Letting everyone have an equal say is a pretty terrible idea.
The qualified pilot then sterilizes the male football fans who obviously have inferior DNA and impregnates their wives.
SKUNK
The football fans would vote against it.
Democracy, remember?
アニメ漫画です
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2009.11.20 02:36:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Le Skunk on 20/11/2009 02:36:27
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Le Skunk
Originally by: Avon
Edited by: Avon on 19/11/2009 20:03:24
Democracy sucks anyway.
You are in a plane and the captain and the co-pilot both fall ill and are unable to fly...
There is a qualified pilot on the plane.
There are several rows of drunken football fans.
In a meritocracy you are going to live.
In a democracy you are going to plunge to your doom whist rather rude sporting chants are slurred through the PA system as the most popular football fan looks for the cup holder.
Letting everyone have an equal say is a pretty terrible idea.
The qualified pilot then sterilizes the male football fans who obviously have inferior DNA and impregnates their wives.
SKUNK
The football fans would vote against it.
Democracy, remember?
Not being a fan of forcible sterilization and other such practices that was kind of my point
SKUNK
(o)
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KaarBaak
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.11.20 03:42:00 -
[64]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Le Skunk
Well the only two female CSM members that have been voted in as far as I can remember have both been embroiled in some form of scandal if the other
SKUNK
There has been 4 female members of the CSM. Not 2.
Highlighted.
KB
KB
Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. |
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CCP Xhagen
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Posted - 2009.11.20 12:29:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Rhen Ayase
its a plutocracy: the one with the money get more votes, because they have more accounts.
i hear from many people its normal to have 2 or even 3 accounts, up to 8 or even heard of one with 15.
its not democratic for one to have up to 15 votes compared to one only want (or can afford) one eve account.
It all depends on what you mean by 'democratic'. When we introduced the idea back in 2007 we used the phrase of "Representive democracy" or "democratic council" - that didn't go down very well. So, to emphasize the lack of formal power of the CSM we rephrased it to "Democratically elected representative council" and advertised, repeatedly, that the CSM has no formal powers.
And in terms of the election method, i.e. one vote per account, that was combination of practicalities and environment the CSM is in - the line between the in-game characters and the user behind them is not always clear and the question of 'how do you make sure that only one person is behind each and every vote?'. If you look up any author with ideas about electronic, sit-at-home-and-vote, ideas, you will see that no one has found an acceptable solution (with the exception of biometric implementations).
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EVE Online
CCP Games |
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Tiny Tove
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Posted - 2009.11.20 12:38:00 -
[66]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
and advertised, repeatedly, that the CSM has no formal powers.
So at least CCP know where they failed. Now if only the free holiday fraternity and their fanboiz could finally get it through their 800mm rolled reinforced misconception plated skulls.
Seeing as it's a dev saying you'd think they finally would, but I don't think holding breath at this point would be advisable.
Replace it with forum poll thanks. Nobody can even hear the CSM for the awesome sound of the forums recently. |
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CCP Xhagen
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Posted - 2009.11.20 12:50:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Tiny Tove
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
and advertised, repeatedly, that the CSM has no formal powers.
So at least CCP know where they failed. Now if only the free holiday fraternity and their fanboiz could finally get it through their 800mm rolled reinforced misconception plated skulls.
Seeing as it's a dev saying you'd think they finally would, but I don't think holding breath at this point would be advisable.
Replace it with forum poll thanks. Nobody can even hear the CSM for the awesome sound of the forums recently.
Who decides what the forum poll is to be about?
The point of the CSM is to get uncensored feedback from the players. If CCP decides the topics of said polls we will only be getting the information we want to get.
Furthermore, I believe it is important to stress that one should not underestimate the power of meeting someone to talk to him face to face - the CSM might not have any formal powers, but they have a very significant influence.
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EVE Online
CCP Games |
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Tiny Tove
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Posted - 2009.11.20 13:28:00 -
[68]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Who decides what the forum poll is to be about?
The point of the CSM is to get uncensored feedback from the players. If CCP decides the topics of said polls we will only be getting the information we want to get.
Furthermore, I believe it is important to stress that one should not underestimate the power of meeting someone to talk to him face to face - the CSM might not have any formal powers, but they have a very significant influence.
Oh come on, who decides what the CSM talk about? Allegedly we do. Uncensored, except by the CSM. If CCP decides something we don't like, see forums recently.
And no, corporations have no trouble giving lip service face-to-face.
The Ideas forum existed long before the CSM and was working just fine. The CSM appeared in response to T20, was promised to deal with that kind of situation, but we ended up with the weak light nonsense we have now. So we supplemented a working system with a corruptable system, that really worked out well.
And you created Internal Affairs to cover and make unaccountable all investigations into corruption. Great job. Even the media was fooled. But as a mere employee, you're only allowed to tow the company line. So, get towing. |
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CCP Xhagen
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Posted - 2009.11.20 13:40:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Tiny Tove
Oh come on, who decides what the CSM talk about? Allegedly we do. Uncensored, except by the CSM. If CCP decides something we don't like, see forums recently.
And no, corporations have no trouble giving lip service face-to-face.
The Ideas forum existed long before the CSM and was working just fine. The CSM appeared in response to T20, was promised to deal with that kind of situation, but we ended up with the weak light nonsense we have now. So we supplemented a working system with a corruptable system, that really worked out well.
And you created Internal Affairs to cover and make unaccountable all investigations into corruption. Great job. Even the media was fooled. But as a mere employee, you're only allowed to tow the company line. So, get towing.
The company line demands that I tow; no arguments on the forums; no trolling of players.
As any reply from me would end in not towing the company line I have only one (viable) option to me:
Sir, I have read your reply and I have acknowledged it.
____________________________
EVE Online
CCP Games |
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Sergeant Clawhammer
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Posted - 2009.11.20 13:44:00 -
[70]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
The company line demands that I tow; no arguments on the forums; no trolling of players.
As any reply from me would end in not towing the company line I have only one (viable) option to me:
Sir, I have read your reply and I have acknowledged it.
That's borderline trolling tbh.
And back on track, where is the vote for cat button?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.11.20 13:49:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Malcanis on 20/11/2009 13:49:45
It's "toe the line" not "tow the line".
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Doddy
The Executives
IT Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.20 15:00:00 -
[72]
All modern "democracies" are run by focus groups, lobbyists and pressure groups anyway, the csm is quite a good representation of this tbh and is actually more democratic than the reality.
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Jack Gilligan
THE MuPPeT FaCTOrY
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Posted - 2009.11.20 15:06:00 -
[73]
The CSM was originally supposed to be created to give the players a role in policing CCP, ie: to prevent any more T20's. It was never actually set up for that role. It more or less is completely useless window dressing, and I think CCP is wasting subscriber money flying what amounts to a superfanboi club to Iceland.
Which is why I don't vote for CSM, and I urge others to not vote. If the vote participation keeps dropping, CCP will know we don't give a rat's rear end about the CSM.
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HowardStern
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Posted - 2009.11.20 15:12:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Marko Riva
I have 7 accounts but couldn't be bothered to log in the others so just voted with 1.
I abstained with 1 account. And only because I couldn't be bothered logging every other account in.
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Tiny Tove
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Posted - 2009.11.20 15:15:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Doddy
All modern "democracies" are run by focus groups, lobbyists and pressure groups anyway, the csm is quite a good representation of this tbh and is actually more democratic than the reality.
Those groups don't spontaneously appear though, nor are they created by the ruling body. They are the manifestation of moderately powerful groups who have to combine forces not yet being powerful enough singularly to influence a government.
Since the CSM doesn't come under that, it being a completely contrived body created and endorsed by CCP, the analogy has a flaw.
Large Alliances are more akin to lobby groups etc. The CSM is akin too.... er... I don't know. I'd say a Mayor, but Mayors at least have some power and abilities. Their really is nothing like a CSM in real life.
Perhaps maybe the local Rotary Club, or Parish Council. But that would be a bit unfair to the Rotary Club.
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ANALDESTROYR
Gallente
No Compromise
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Posted - 2009.11.20 17:33:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Oriens Pars
Originally by: Merovee
 We are lucky to get a vote at all, and if I invest in this game with more than one account I demand that I get more votes. You people are stupid!
Please explain to me how you think it's fair that you deserve more than 1 vote just because you have more than 1 account. I don't think your 2nd account speaks for me, or anyone else. In fact, it speaks for you...just a second time. What if someone owned 200 accounts and uses those 200 votes to sway a candidate into the CSM that wants to implement a change that benefits only him and his friends? Great, a candidate gets elected with 5000 votes. Who cares if those 5000 votes came from only 500 people (exaggeration of course)? Uh.....I'm sure a LOT of people care. If CCP really does want a fair representation of its player base then they need to fix the way the CSM is actually elected.
I'm not saying get rid of the CSM. I'm just saying there needs to be some different way of voting for the candidates. As it is now it's not fair, and needs to be changed....I for one won't vote until it is.
For the record - I own 3 accounts and don't want the 3 votes.....1 is fine, and fair.
LOL, U HAVENT SEEN THE USA ELECTIONS, MORE CORRUPT THAN RUSSIA. ((
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Taedrin
Gallente
The Green Cross
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Posted - 2009.11.20 17:45:00 -
[77]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Originally by: Tiny Tove
Oh come on, who decides what the CSM talk about? Allegedly we do. Uncensored, except by the CSM. If CCP decides something we don't like, see forums recently.
And no, corporations have no trouble giving lip service face-to-face.
The Ideas forum existed long before the CSM and was working just fine. The CSM appeared in response to T20, was promised to deal with that kind of situation, but we ended up with the weak light nonsense we have now. So we supplemented a working system with a corruptable system, that really worked out well.
And you created Internal Affairs to cover and make unaccountable all investigations into corruption. Great job. Even the media was fooled. But as a mere employee, you're only allowed to tow the company line. So, get towing.
The company line demands that I tow; no arguments on the forums; no trolling of players.
As any reply from me would end in not towing the company line I have only one (viable) option to me:
Sir, I have read your reply and I have acknowledged it.
Which probably also explains why there is so little dev interaction in threads where players are being very emotional and aggressive.
----------
There is always a choice. The choice might not be easy, nor simple, nor the options be what you desire - but, nevertheless, the choice is there to be made. |
Oriens Pars
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Posted - 2009.11.20 18:35:00 -
[78]
Originally by: ANALDESTROYR
LOL, U HAVENT SEEN THE USA ELECTIONS, MORE CORRUPT THAN RUSSIA. ((
Corrupt, possibly. In fact, probably.....but, PAYING FOR ACTUAL PHYSICAL VOTES IS AGAINST THE LAW! Paying for lobbyists, and whoever else to sway voters a certain way is NOT against the law, that's why we see soo many stupid ass ads for 6-12 months prior to elections. Trust me, if you get caught paying someone outright to vote a certain way you are gonna end up in jail.
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Konoch
Caldari
Azriel's Legion
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Posted - 2009.11.20 18:42:00 -
[79]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Originally by: Tiny Tove
Oh come on, who decides what the CSM talk about? Allegedly we do. Uncensored, except by the CSM. If CCP decides something we don't like, see forums recently.
And no, corporations have no trouble giving lip service face-to-face.
The Ideas forum existed long before the CSM and was working just fine. The CSM appeared in response to T20, was promised to deal with that kind of situation, but we ended up with the weak light nonsense we have now. So we supplemented a working system with a corruptable system, that really worked out well.
And you created Internal Affairs to cover and make unaccountable all investigations into corruption. Great job. Even the media was fooled. But as a mere employee, you're only allowed to tow the company line. So, get towing.
The company line demands that I tow; no arguments on the forums; no trolling of players.
As any reply from me would end in not towing the company line I have only one (viable) option to me:
Sir, I have read your reply and I have acknowledged it.
Please relay this message to your bosses. The CSM is nothing but an abject failure. I will not vote in it i will not participate in it because it has become blatently clear to us you refuse to listen to it. I was due to reup my subscription in the Jan/Feb months. If Dominion goes down the track of the latest Dev blog i will not do so. I will hit the cancel subscription button and on the last day delete my character.
Slap N on the head please and make him get his act together. His actions have basically in one clean swoop declared this group a Farce and set a lot of people looking for potential viable options. And while T20 there werent really any good ones. THIS TIME THERE ARE!
STO (online before july 4th next year)
TOR Possibly ready for a new years launch? Who knows its bioware.
Jumpgate Evo? In closed betas right now will also be ready within the next six months.]
If you want to bleed off subscriptions to those games keep doing what you're doing. FIX THIS!
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Everseeker
United Corporate Ventures
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Posted - 2009.11.20 20:42:00 -
[80]
Ya know, I do not mind that there are people who can vote on more then 1 toon... as long as it's not alts on the same account, and it's not a temp account, I am REALLY fine with it...
Look at the numbers... do you REALLY think that the people on the CSM bought thousands of accounts, JUST to get on the CSM?
And, when you think about it...If they did... So?
That means you have a person who cares enough about this game to sink hundreds of dollars into the CSM process....
My only problem is kinda small, but...
In MOST (OK, all the ones I can remember) of the elections I have participates in where there are Y people competing for X seats (and Y>X) I have been asked to "Pick X Names from the following"
not pick Mr.Moon X times, but pick several names....
The fact that I can only pick 1.... not as satisfactory to me
I might think MS Apple would be a GREAT person, when paired with MS Bravo... but I can't indicate that...
If I am asked to select my choice for CSM, let me tell you my choice.... not just 1 member
(and yes, I think this is a good thing, and I voted)
EverSeeker |
Tellenta
Gallente
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.11.20 22:07:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Tellenta on 20/11/2009 22:08:53
Originally by: Rhen Ayase
its a plutocracy: the one with the money get more votes, because they have more accounts.
i hear from many people its normal to have 2 or even 3 accounts, up to 8 or even heard of one with 15.
its not democratic for one to have up to 15 votes compared to one only want (or can afford) one eve account.
*edited because I was wrong zomg* votes I think, but I've never voted for CSM due to the fact that I am not emotionally attached to this game enough to do research on canidates for a position that may or may not do anything in particular that may or may not effect my play style in any meaningful fashion.
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Ebanni
Ebanni Mercantile
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Posted - 2009.11.21 18:52:00 -
[82]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
It all depends on what you mean by 'democratic'.
Priceless.
Abstain.
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari
RennTech
BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2009.11.21 20:47:00 -
[83]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Originally by: Tiny Tove
Oh come on, who decides what the CSM talk about? Allegedly we do. Uncensored, except by the CSM. If CCP decides something we don't like, see forums recently.
And no, corporations have no trouble giving lip service face-to-face.
The Ideas forum existed long before the CSM and was working just fine. The CSM appeared in response to T20, was promised to deal with that kind of situation, but we ended up with the weak light nonsense we have now. So we supplemented a working system with a corruptable system, that really worked out well.
And you created Internal Affairs to cover and make unaccountable all investigations into corruption. Great job. Even the media was fooled. But as a mere employee, you're only allowed to tow the company line. So, get towing.
The company line demands that I tow; no arguments on the forums; no trolling of players.
As any reply from me would end in not towing the company line I have only one (viable) option to me:
Sir, I have read your reply and I have acknowledged it.
Glad to see the professionals at CCP partake in trolling just as much as the people they're supposed to moderate over.
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Oscardoodle
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.11.21 21:05:00 -
[84]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Who decides what the forum poll is to be about?
The point of the CSM is to get uncensored feedback from the players and have the ability to do nothing with it. If CCP decides the topics of said polls we will only be getting the information we want to get, which is how it should be.
Furthermore, I believe it is important to stress that one should not underestimate the power of meeting someone to talk to him face to face - the CSM might not have any formal powers, but they have a very significant influence over nothing.
Fixed ur poast.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.11.21 21:59:00 -
[85]
True democracy is stupid.
Why should anyone be allowed to have the same impact on a topic they have NO clue about as someone who has really deep and good knowledge and skills about that topic?
That is most absurd.
Or do you want a democratic vote from people on the street how to repair your car next time it is broken? I bet you go to professionals then instead. So, see how democracy is great when it comes to skills and knowledge?
True democracy is nonsense and a bad thing. People much wiser than me (and probably anyone else here) wrote about that topic already thousands of years ago - the arguments haven't changed a single bit since then.
But probably you didn't mean democracy but representation anyway. |
Oscardoodle
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.11.21 22:12:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Gnulpie
do you want a democratic vote from people on the street how to repair your car next time it is broken? I bet you go to professionals then instead.
Allow me to enlighten you.
You pay a pro to fix your car and if you don't get what you pay for then you go somewhere else.
Thinkaboutit brown noser.
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Peryner
University of Caille
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Posted - 2009.11.21 23:18:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
Originally by: Tiny Tove
Oh come on, who decides what the CSM talk about? Allegedly we do. Uncensored, except by the CSM. If CCP decides something we don't like, see forums recently.
And no, corporations have no trouble giving lip service face-to-face.
The Ideas forum existed long before the CSM and was working just fine. The CSM appeared in response to T20, was promised to deal with that kind of situation, but we ended up with the weak light nonsense we have now. So we supplemented a working system with a corruptable system, that really worked out well.
And you created Internal Affairs to cover and make unaccountable all investigations into corruption. Great job. Even the media was fooled. But as a mere employee, you're only allowed to tow the company line. So, get towing.
The company line demands that I tow; no arguments on the forums; no trolling of players.
As any reply from me would end in not towing the company line I have only one (viable) option to me:
Sir, I have read your reply and I have acknowledged it.
Glad to see the professionals at CCP partake in trolling just as much as the people they're supposed to moderate over.
people like you are the reason dev don't reply on the forums.
If they say nothing, the player consider it trolling.
If they say something emotional, the player become enraged they have an opinion!
If they say, I can't reply, but even though I can't, I will at least let you know I'm reding and not ignoring you.
Then it's considered trolling.
So the only obvious clear way for the devs to not get the playerbase mad is not post at all.
Thanks a lot Jolstien, you're like the one spoiled kid that gets recess canceled for the rest for us 
Damned if you do
Damned if you don't
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Imiarr Timshae
Caldari
Funny Men In Funny Hats
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Posted - 2009.11.21 23:18:00 -
[88]
Of course it's not democratic, here's why : Linkage 
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Terianna Eri
Amarr
Senex Legio
Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2009.11.22 00:15:00 -
[89]
Originally by: CCP Xhagen
no arguments on the forums; no trolling of players
Some would claim that CCP Nozh is in violation of the latter (target painteeeers);
I would instead claim that the forums would be more interesting if these rules were removed 
________________
Originally by: CCP Incognito
PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
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AnonyTerrorNinja
Minmatar
Buggers' Advanced Interstellar Transport
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Posted - 2009.11.22 00:36:00 -
[90]
I was going to post one of my wall-of-text arguments towards the OP here, but I got way too tired half-way in.
CSM has no power.
CSM can be as corrupt as they want, that doesn't mean CCP are or are going to put up with caving to the corruption.
CSM is there to collect and relay 'the voice' (read: incessant whines) of the players to the devs in a format that is slightly-less whiney.
There, I think I summarized the important bits.
Whether groups of 'corrupt' players push to get their personal CSM member in or not, CSM members' actions within the forums/game are likely monitored to make sure there's little to no personal-gain scheming going on. If they aren't, then something, somewhere, is very wrong.
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