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CSM not a democratic vote

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
LeBelInconnu Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.11.22 00:39:00 - [91] Originally by: Taedrin Originally by: CCP Xhagen Originally by: Tiny Tove Oh come on, who decides what the CSM talk about? Allegedly we do. Uncensored, except by the CSM. If CCP decides something we don't like, see forums recently. And no, corporations have no trouble giving lip service face-to-face. The Ideas forum existed long before the CSM and was working just fine. The CSM appeared in response to T20, was promised to deal with that kind of situation, but we ended up with the weak light nonsense we have now. So we supplemented a working system with a corruptable system, that really worked out well. And you created Internal Affairs to cover and make unaccountable all investigations into corruption. Great job. Even the media was fooled. But as a mere employee, you're only allowed to tow the company line. So, get towing. The company line demands that I tow; no arguments on the forums; no trolling of players. As any reply from me would end in not towing the company line I have only one (viable) option to me: Sir, I have read your reply and I have acknowledged it. Which probably also explains why there is so little dev interaction in threads where players are being very emotional and aggressive. if only there was a way for devs to have a hand full of players tell the devs what the players on the forum have been saying... and nto have 100s fo people yelling voer each other... maybe we could pick some of us by viting, and then the people we vote for could sit down one on one with ccp. and thus the devs could a safe enviroment in which to talk to the playerbase... yeah, that' a good idea, we should do that. DB Preacher - "We command your game now. As long as you remain in GoonSwarm, we make you play our way..." wtf is wrong with you?
JACKIE M00N	Posted - 2009.11.22 00:43:00 - [92] CSM = Holding a gun with no bullets
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.11.22 00:52:00 - [93] Edited by: Khemul Zula on 22/11/2009 00:53:44 Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: CCP Xhagen no arguments on the forums; no trolling of players Some would claim that CCP Nozh is in violation of the latter (target painteeeers); I would instead claim that the forums would be more interesting if these rules were removed Definately. Forums need dev trolling. Someone like Navigator posting a thread like "Stop the salvage thieves!" would be awesome. Good ol' Democracy. One man, one vote. And sometimes that One Man decides to give others the illusion of voting also. After all, it's always nice to share, or atleast create the illusion of sharing while not actually sharing but making others content because they believe you are sharing while you are actually not (otherwise known as 'Politics'). Veal, murder. Baby Carrots, healthy snack. Food hypocrisy at work.
murder one Gallente Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS	Posted - 2009.11.22 01:42:00 - [94] Originally by: JACKIE M00N CSM = Holding a gun with no bullets More like holding the packaging box of a gun, with no gun inside it. And still no bullets. -murder one [07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2
DigitalCommunist November Corporation	Posted - 2009.11.22 06:19:00 - [95] I've yet to cast any votes in the CSM process, and I doubt I ever will. And its not because I dislike the CSM concept (hell, I demanded they bring it back).. but because I dislike what voting represents. I don't think I could ever find a person with values identical to mine. What should I do then? Vote for someone who I agree with only half of the time? I would much rather abstain and feel left out than participate and feel stupid because the person I gave my vote to is a raging moron on many issues - but not as much as every other candidate option. Screw the middleman, let us promote issues and topics for review and discussion instead. In a cutthroat, hypercapitalistic and ruthless environment where most players wouldn't trust their HAC to a stranger even with billions in personal wealth, why should they entrust them to shape their gameplay experience before anything is said or done? Why does it even happen? Because people like to push buttons and for many, not voting is not possible. In a CSM election event filled with 1 month old newbs, bored vets who haven't played in 4 years, and dirtbags who think removing concord is great, we would still end up with a Lesser Evil CandidateÖ The CSM harbours the same fault of real world democracies, even though it doesn't have to. In the real world, you have to pick people to run the show and wield power or literally nothing would happen. But in EVE, we already have a central authority which can administer action and change. Another layer of beaurocracy between us and them is both redundant and inefficient. As evidenced by the lack of decline in forum whines, most people choose to ignore the option of ***ing at the CSM when they can *** to CCP directly. CCP is screwed if they ignore either one: ignoring CSM means pointless drama, while ignoring the playerbase means becoming reliant on the the input of a few individuals. The irony of this is that CCP have - in the process of simplifying feedback - created even more work for themselves. CCP should issue massively detailed surveys on every aspect of the game on a routine basis. Valuable data can be harvested and compared against account information like total wealth, age, logged in time, etc. They would have statistical data representative of how new players feel, what veterans think, what 0.0 alliances want, and so on. Every vote, option and checkbox entered by every player would still hold some meaning. Afterwards, publish all the data (just like QEN) and the playerbase can have discussions about interpretation or bicker over which demographic is more important. Hell, the players might come to understand the various groupings of player values well enough to form organized lobby and political groups. This initial round of surveys can focus purely on satisfaction with various features and elements of gameplay, and when the areas of improvement are narrowed down, CCP issues a second round focusing on specific implementations. Finally, the third round is just a ballot of "what do you want us to do next from this list?". Repeat this process with every expansion, and the game will evolve in a positive direction much faster than a few dudes with a personal soapbox can ever hope to accomplish. And this is not me saying "CSM candidates have no influence or power". Such things don't matter when you constantly recieve a different mix or "slice" of the community. Influence and power can be counterproductive when new candidates push devs into doing the exact opposite of what previous councils wanted. Have general opinions in the playerbase changed in the meantime? Probably not! It shouldn't take more than 10 of these CSM councils to make CCP realize they're just as random as throwing a dart at the forums and reading the feature/idea/suggestion/whine contained within. Hopefully then, we see some of this overly hyped "iterative development process" in action.
Ignitious Hellfury Minmatar Republic Military Skool	Posted - 2009.11.22 06:24:00 - [96] Originally by: JACKIE M00N CSM = Holding a gun with no bullets false. Larkonis almost made of with BILLIONS!!! /vote lark
Tiny Tove	Posted - 2009.11.22 13:43:00 - [97] Originally by: Taedrin Which probably also explains why there is so little dev interaction in threads where players are being very emotional and aggressive. I only wounded it, quit crying. Wasn't it they that said "Harden The What Up?" themselves? If they wanna be pouty emo, that's their business. HARDEN THE **** UP
Dirk Mortice	Posted - 2009.11.22 14:15:00 - [98] I don't see what the problem is. Surely the player who pays CCP 10x as much money should have 10x as much say in the companies activities?
Borun Tal Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.22 23:40:00 - [99] I think this thread proves two things: 1) CSM is a castrated alley cat with zero power (CCP Xhagen's words) and influence, and 2) nobody can police a company that doesn't allow anyone in the front door in the first place (XHagen's "toe the company line" comment). CCP doesn't want certain things discussed publicly in forums where most of their players frequent (these forums and chat) and censors those items, so what effect do you REALLY think CSM can do? To compare CSM to lobbyists is just to prove one doesn't know what lobbyists can do. I work IRL for a large law firm that has lobbyists on payroll, and what these guys do would shock many purists (ie, uninformed) on these forums. The same power doesn't exist for CSM, and never will (it's CCP's sandbox and they make 100% of the rules, irrespective of what the paying customers say or think).
Taaketa Frist Minmatar Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.11.23 00:10:00 - [100] Dear CCP, RE: This thread Can't please nobody. That is all. Yours truely, Taaketa Frist -------------- Dang nabit

Ralle030583 Mystic Lion Hearts Sev3rance	Posted - 2009.11.23 00:19:00 - [101] Originally by: K'uata Sayus Originally by: Rhen Ayase ..stuff... Democracy is an ideal that does not exist in RL. Why hold CCP and the CSM up to something that does not nor ever has been?? this made my day :) /signed
Frug Omega Wing	Posted - 2009.11.23 01:17:00 - [102] Part of the problem with these forums is that a lot of the sensible people have long since stopped posting on eveo because of the rampant stupidity of the players here. I know I sure gave up months ago. The unfortunate fallout of this is that this is the forum the devs post in. So not only do they not talk to a lot of reasonable people, but they also have to listen to you idiots. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Whisper/PrismX 4 emperor
Tiny Tove	Posted - 2009.11.23 01:25:00 - [103] Originally by: Frug Part of the problem with these forums is that a lot of the sensible people have long since stopped posting on eveo because of the rampant stupidity of the players here. I know I sure gave up months ago. The unfortunate fallout of this is that this is the forum the devs post in. So not only do they not talk to a lot of reasonable people, but they also have to listen to you idiots. HTFU.
Woodwraith Prophets Of a Damned Universe	Posted - 2009.11.23 03:00:00 - [104] Originally by: DigitalCommunist The CSM harbours the same fault of real world democracies, even though it doesn't have to. In the real world, you have to pick people to run the show and wield power or literally nothing would happen. But in EVE, we already have a central authority which can administer action and change. Another layer of beaurocracy between us and them is both redundant and inefficient. I would posit that the distance between the average eve players ideas and CCP is about like me trying to get info to the man in the moon. Having a repeater in the middle that can take a handful of ideas they're elected on and bring them into the belly of the beast is surely better than thinking something clear and concise will come out of these forums. Even not counting CAOD, the signal to noise ration in here is just a notch above 4chan most days. Worse case scenario, you elect someone with decent ideas and no one listens to them, I still don't see how were in any worse off a spot than we'd be without them.
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2009.11.23 04:04:00 - [105] Originally by: Frug Part of the problem with these forums is that a lot of the sensible people have long since stopped posting on eveo because of the rampant stupidity of the players here. I know I sure gave up months ago. The unfortunate fallout of this is that this is the forum the devs post in. So not only do they not talk to a lot of reasonable people, but they also have to listen to you idiots. You gave up posting "months ago" because of all the idiots? A quick look at your post history shows you post on this forum every other day. SKUNK (o)
Dillon Arklight Universal Army Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.11.23 05:53:00 - [106] Reading this thread it is easy to see why so many players have become dissolutioned with the idea of the CSM. Its short history is full of examples of communication breakdown between the CSM and CCP and more recently we saw corruption on the CSM in the form of Larkonnis Trassler. It astounded me when at the fan fest the CSM rather hesitantly reported that the communication lines between themselves and CCP had broken down. You have to wonder how this could have happened and if it reflects upon CCP's commitment to the CSM ideal. This lack of communication was more recently proved when it took over 2 months for the notes of a recent CCP/CSM meeting to become available to us the players. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1175622&page=3 The arguments for one player having one vote is currently being discussed and I agree with CCP that itÆs almost impossible to guarantee that a person with multiple accounts will only vote once. Unless players, like me, decide that even though they pay for multiple accounts you should only vote once. Because vote I shall. ItÆs easy to look on the CSM from the outside and criticize and complain but sadly your voice will not be heard amongst the thousands on the forums. It will be heard if you vote to abstain. That will send CCP a much louder message than a rant on a thread or a sly comment on the forums. If you donÆt agree with the CSM or there is no candidate which matches your views then use the abstain button, itÆs there for that purpose. As a final thought if I vote for a candidate I would like to see more detailed information once the CSM session is over as to what they voted on various topics. ItÆs all well and good for a candidate to get elected with general platitudes such as "boost amarr!" but it would be nice to see if they stuck to their promises. Co-host of PODDED Podcast http://podded.libsyn.com/

CCP Xhagen	Posted - 2009.11.23 15:47:00 - [107] Originally by: DigitalCommunist The CSM harbours the same fault of real world democracies, even though it doesn't have to. In the real world, you have to pick people to run the show and wield power or literally nothing would happen. But in EVE, we already have a central authority which can administer action and change. Another layer of beaurocracy between us and them is both redundant and inefficient. As evidenced by the lack of decline in forum whines, most people choose to ignore the option of ***ing at the CSM when they can * to CCP directly. CCP is screwed if they ignore either one: ignoring CSM means pointless drama, while ignoring the playerbase means becoming reliant on the the input of a few individuals. The irony of this is that CCP have - in the process of simplifying feedback - created even more work for themselves. The approach we took with the 'new' CSM was: as much hands off as humanly possible. That means we screen out as few candidates as possible and we screen out almost no topics raised by the CSM. I realize that this 'almost no' is there - the CSM is supposed to focus on EVE related matters, not on CCP as a business (e.g. the Game Time Code changes). I disagree with your implicit statement that 'simplified feedback' means less work. We fully realize that this route created even more work and bound us down - the commitment to talk to the CSM has been made. Originally by:** DigitalCommunist CCP should issue massively detailed surveys on every aspect of the game on a routine basis. Valuable data can be harvested and compared against account information like total wealth, age, logged in time, etc. They would have statistical data representative of how new players feel, what veterans think, what 0.0 alliances want, and so on. This is being/or will be (I'm not 100% in the loop there) done too. Again I don't agree with your 'either or' approach. Furthermore, if CCP designs the questions and the available answers, CCP is controlling what message we get and what not. The CSM is supposed to provide us with feedback, selected by the players, not by CCP. Originally by: DigitalCommunist It shouldn't take more than 10 of these CSM councils to make CCP realize they're just as random as throwing a dart at the forums and reading the feature/idea/suggestion/whine contained within. Hopefully then, we see some of this overly hyped "iterative development process" in action. I'm not part of the Game Design team, thus I simply don't know the status of current projects in there. What I do know is that for the 4th CSM, the process of how we handle things internally that are brought up by the CSM will change. For the 5th CSM we will hopefully have changes that touch upon the external matters related to the CSM. ____________________________ EVE Online CCP Games

Jin Gle Asgardreia	Posted - 2009.11.23 16:01:00 - [108] I just want to congratulate CCP in making a democratic system that resemble the various democratic systems that exist in real life so very closely. In every aspect :)
DigitalCommunist November Corporation	Posted - 2009.11.23 17:33:00 - [109] Cool, I got a reply. As I understand it, you think CCP asking questions will skew the type of feedback you get. My response is that while its possible to ask highly loaded and focused questions, you can easily avoid it by hiring the right person for the job. Maybe a professional statistician to go with your economist? That person can always run the questions by the community for feedback on the survey itself. Either way, its not a huge deal if your surveys are thorough and frequent. Right now you influence the type of feedback CSM gives just by announcing what upcoming expansions are about. Because they're individuals with some desire to be of worth, they might not tell you certain things just because they seem unlikely or unfeasible in the near future.
Sumach Merge	Posted - 2009.11.30 15:39:00 - [110] Originally by: Frug Part of the problem with these forums is that a lot of the sensible people have long since stopped posting on eveo because of the rampant stupidity of the players here. I know I sure gave up months ago. The unfortunate fallout of this is that this is the forum the devs post in. So not only do they not talk to a lot of reasonable people, but they also have to listen to you idiots. Yeah the 'sensible' people end up on Scrapheap Challenge as bitter Veterans who complain about absolutely everything, suggest ideas that are even more horrid than the ideas in the Features and Ideas forum, and believe they are entitled to everything.

Rhatar Khurin Minmatar Dead poets society The Laughing Men	Posted - 2009.11.30 15:51:00 - [111] I always vote for whomever i think will do a good job pushing Factional warfare related things into view. Failing that, whomever has the prettiest avatar


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