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Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
120
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Posted - 2012.06.15 20:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
And here I was almost hoping that CCP might be considering removing all microtransactions from EVE. Silly me.
PLEX is bad enough, but Aurum is just bullshit. If you're going to keep doing this, then keep it very very low key or you'll lose an otherwise not-so-bitter vet. Buying in-game crap for real money fucks with the sandbox and it fucks with immersion, and it's not a good ******* either.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
122
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 20:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
See, that's one thing that the previous CSM seemed to get all wrong. The primary source of outrage wasn't that CCP was developing ambulation ... sorry, Incarna ... instead of spaceships. The primary source of outrage was "Monoclegate" which, incidentally, had very little to do with outrageous prices and everything to do with real money prices in a sandbox game. It's about the most un-EVE-like thing I can think of off the top of my head, right up there with elves, magic missiles, level 4 missions, and consequence-free death.
By all means, give us a useful way of existing outside of our pods. But don't tie it (or anything else outside of our subscriptions) in with the size of our real-world bank accounts. That's what the subscription fee is for. Keep the sandbox pure.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
122
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 21:00:00 -
[3] - Quote
Alia Gon'die wrote:Mechael wrote:See, that's one thing that the previous CSM seemed to get all wrong. The primary source of outrage wasn't that CCP was developing ambulation ... sorry, Incarna ... instead of spaceships. The primary source of outrage was "Monoclegate" which, incidentally, had very little to do with outrageous prices and everything to do with real money prices in a sandbox game. It's about the most un-EVE-like thing I can think of off the top of my head, right up there with elves, magic missiles, level 4 missions, and consequence-free death.
By all means, give us a useful way of existing outside of our pods. But don't tie it (or anything else outside of our subscriptions) in with the size of our real-world bank accounts. That's what the subscription fee is for. Keep the sandbox pure. I thought the outrage was because CCP spent millions of dollars and years of developer time on what was supposed to be a really cool project, and instead all we got was a rusty studio apartment with trash on the floor that we couldn't pick up. We couldn't even have people hang out, not that we wanted to with that mess on the floor.
Yeah, I remember watching the focus visibly shift of the course of a few months from, "WTF GET MICROTRANSACTIONS OUT OF THE ******* SANDBOX!" to "Why u no build spaceship? Why Incarna so bad?"
I think that most of EVE has been the proverbial frog boiled in a pot. Turn the temp up slowly enough and it won't even realize it's dying.
Ah well. If this microtransaction **** gets out of hand (read: anything beyond PLEX and clothing items,) I'm gone. If custom paint jobs for your ships (when they're released) are priced in Aurum, I'm gone. Aurum needs to be removed, and failing that it needs to be left alone to fade away into obscurity.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
122
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 21:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Lyron-Baktos wrote:The rage was because of several reasons
1. So much time/resources spent on WIS stuff and what we got was ****. Captains quarters was all we got. If CCP had delivered a much better WIS product, it would have been better
2. NEX prices were outrageous. More affordable prices would not have caused much rage
3. CEO's email bragging about making money from NEX. lol, no comment needed here
4. Overall thought of Eve turning into "pay to win"
If CCP had managed these issues better, Jita would not have burned
All of that stuff was poorly handled, absolutely. The root problem though is that microtransactions do not belong in a game like EVE. Period.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
122
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 21:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:Mechael wrote:Lyron-Baktos wrote:The rage was because of several reasons
1. So much time/resources spent on WIS stuff and what we got was ****. Captains quarters was all we got. If CCP had delivered a much better WIS product, it would have been better
2. NEX prices were outrageous. More affordable prices would not have caused much rage
3. CEO's email bragging about making money from NEX. lol, no comment needed here
4. Overall thought of Eve turning into "pay to win"
If CCP had managed these issues better, Jita would not have burned All of that stuff was poorly handled, absolutely. The root problem though is that microtransactions do not belong in a game like EVE. Period. If I want to pay money to play spaceship barbie what problem do you have with it. No one is forcing you to do it, or to pay money. They have said, multiple times, in very large font, it won't be pay to win. Are you that tin-foil-hat'ed that you won't believe devs when they blatantly tell you things?
It already is pay-to-win. You can buy something with real-life money (that comes from literally nowhere, and certainly wasn't made by another player) and then sell it for ISK. How is this not pay-to-win?
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
122
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 21:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:Mechael wrote:PinkKnife wrote:Mechael wrote:Lyron-Baktos wrote:The rage was because of several reasons
1. So much time/resources spent on WIS stuff and what we got was ****. Captains quarters was all we got. If CCP had delivered a much better WIS product, it would have been better
2. NEX prices were outrageous. More affordable prices would not have caused much rage
3. CEO's email bragging about making money from NEX. lol, no comment needed here
4. Overall thought of Eve turning into "pay to win"
If CCP had managed these issues better, Jita would not have burned All of that stuff was poorly handled, absolutely. The root problem though is that microtransactions do not belong in a game like EVE. Period. If I want to pay money to play spaceship barbie what problem do you have with it. No one is forcing you to do it, or to pay money. They have said, multiple times, in very large font, it won't be pay to win. Are you that tin-foil-hat'ed that you won't believe devs when they blatantly tell you things? It already is pay-to-win. You can buy something with real-life money (that comes from literally nowhere, and certainly wasn't made by another player) and then sell it for ISK. How is this not pay-to-win? I'm not talking about using Plex, I'm talking about microtransactions for avatar things. Plex is a different scenario.
It's basically the same. Whether you're selling a PLEX for ISK or selling some t-shirt for ISK, it's still a pay-to-win scenario.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
122
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 21:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cpt Arareb wrote:Im not going buy anything with AUR ever ...but truth to be said those look good 
Agreed. Awesome stuff ruined by Aurum.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
124
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Posted - 2012.06.15 22:00:00 -
[8] - Quote
Solhild wrote:Myxx wrote:I'll say this one final time: **** off with your microtransactions. Everything should be producable by players for ingame resources. truth
Double-quoted for profundity.
That is the nature of EVE. Microtransactions slap it in the face.
EVE Online. The sandbox game that doesn't have the balls to be a real sandbox.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
124
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 22:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Unifex wrote:Good to hear all the suggestions coming in. For those in doubt, the clothes shown in the blog are those you can get in the Factional Warfare Loyalty Point store for LPs+ISK. As mentioned in the blog, we will also be introducing clothing as loot drops in the near future. So, people will be able to get some interesting clothing items without having to spend anything over and above their subscription. Those who want to, will be able to spend to buy some other items from the Nex store. It's all about choice which isn't something we did in the past but we are doing now. You can choose to be involved or not. Each to their own. Live and let live 
NPC Seeded has always been the good fall-back when we don't have a particularly sensible way to allow players to create things yet. I think maybe my hackles raised a little too high for me to properly digest this part of the blog. Thanks for clarifying, Unifex. 
I've never particularly cared for loot drops (in any scenario outside of PvP) because, once again, it's something coming from nothing. Maybe one day we'll figure out how to move away from a faucet/sink system, but since that day is not today, I guess this is understandable as well.
The NeX store though ... 
Anyway, thanks for helping clarify things. Cheers!
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
124
|
Posted - 2012.06.15 23:44:00 -
[10] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Solhild wrote:edit: want to buy this ship I just built from the BPO I researched and the materials we mined/reprocessed?
- what do you mean, no you just bought one for cash????
SANDBOX Tyberius Franklin wrote:This isn't happening. In a very real sense, it is. I can pay real money for (items which come from literally nowhere that I can sell for) ISK. Tyberius Franklin wrote:The items are of a type that has had absolutely no history of player manufacture We should give them one, and be done with this insulting Aurum business. [quote=Tyberius Franklin] and in no way is diminishing gameplay. Furthermore they have no effect or influence on other mechanics of the game.
Couldn't be more wrong here. Real money should not equal ISK. Ever. Even if it's just paying a penny once a year to get 0.01 ISK (at which point, who really cares except for people with ethics who understand the principle of the thing?) Unless of course we want to compromise the integrity of this virtual world and make it into something that is basically a whole lot more like Second Life.
Aurum is insulting.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
124
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 00:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
Maul555 wrote:Now if you are going to get mad about some clothing popping into existence out of "thin air", then you also need to advocate the elimination of all NPC loot drops. let that one sink in for a moment. How far down that rabbit hole do you want to go? Remove all NPC agent rewards too? Their isk and rewards popped into existence out of nowhere. They didn't buy that stuff off the market. Where do you want to draw this line here?
This should be the ideal to shoot for, honestly. NPC rats spawning from oblivion has never made a lick of sense. It's a theme-park element inside the sandbox, and while it may have been a nice band-aid way back in the day before EVE had any real PvE content, it should never have been a long-term solution. I'd be ecstatic if CCP announced that they were doing away with missions entirely and were developing a way to allow the players themselves to manage EVE's economy (read: no more faucet/sink system.) We'd be a lot closer to a true sandbox, a true ultimate science fiction simulator if we managed to do that.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
124
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 00:34:00 -
[12] - Quote
Kern Hotha wrote:Please give me a way to delete aurum from my wallet without spending it. I don't want to buy anything from the store. I just want aurum gone from my wallet so that I can pretend it never existed.
I actually petitioned this once, and they told me that it wouldn't make sense for them to delete it from my wallet since they were just going to give me more for free anyway.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
124
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 00:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
I like the cosmetic stuff, too, honestly. It's great, and helps add to the depth and scope of the game. It increases immersion. However, the impact that it could have is nearly completely over-ridden by the fact that every time I see a monocle I cringe and feel that bitter-vet forming deep in my soul that I never really wanted to be there in the first place. Thank you, microtransactions, for ruining what could have been pretty great.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
126
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 05:11:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ris Dnalor wrote:will loot-drop avatar clothing be destructable when you're podded, and if not, is this a bad thing?
If it's not player made AND destructible, it's less than ideal.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
127
|
Posted - 2012.06.16 07:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
It's dangerous to go alone. Take this.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
133
|
Posted - 2012.06.17 21:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
Christmas OnFIre wrote:Personally i am very much against micro-transactions in a subscription based game as it does feel like we are being double charged, so i am against the whole idea of Aurum and micro-transactions.
Although I think a greater customisation/personalisation to our avatars is a great idea and should be continued.
Okay so i'm a bit demanding, so sue me... (please dont).
I realise it would be very difficult financially for CCP to do both atm so.....
If CCP cant afford to remove Aurum and simply give players this content ( or be able to buy it straight off through isk/LP etc without any involvement of MC) on a continual basis, one idea may be to hold off on creating any more clothing until Dust and/or WoD have been released and are bringing in some revenue.
(just an idea)
Anyway...
That said, i've loved a lot of the new updates and will def keep playing if things continue this way.
The idea of buying unique clothing from FW using isk/LP is inspired, maybe you could expand on this and make it possible for the bigger player corps/alliances to put their logos on their clothing as well.
See now, this guy makes sense.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
135
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Posted - 2012.06.17 23:08:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jens Beckstrom wrote:Keep it for dust514 and dust514 alone if u must for revenue, but keep it out of a well working suscription system.
Yep. I'm sure the Dust Bunnies will eat that **** up, like typical console gamers. Milk that cash cow, but don't expect us to fall for the same trap.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
136
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Posted - 2012.06.18 00:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:It's not a trap, good god you people are deaf, dumb and blind.
Mhm. And Farmville isn't one of the worst games ever created. DLC isn't just a way to charge for things that should have been in the game from the start. Buying a fancy digital hat isn't a total waste of money.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
142
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Posted - 2012.06.18 22:18:00 -
[19] - Quote
Damion Rayne wrote:You're an idiot with zero game design experience. DLC, is usually created after the release of the game as a whole. Dawnguard for Skyrim for example, was started when production on the main game halted.
I'm gonna stop trying to reason with a bunch of close minded idiots.
Back in the day when we used to have "expansion packs" it made a whole lot more sense. You could, if you so desired, purchase a reasonable expansion to your game (Dawnguard for Skyrim is the modern successor to this concept, and it is a good thing.) However, these days you can purchase DLC on the same day as a game ships in some cases. This is motivated clearly by greed, and no, greed is not good. Microtransactions in a subscription based MMO is also motivated purely by greed, especially when that subscription based MMO is meant to be a working sandbox and science fiction simulator. The fact that after all these years it's still on a faucet/sink system is bad enough (but understandable.) Throwing in extra content which materializes from thin air and can be purchased for real money into the works is so utterly contrary to the core concept of EVE that it's preposterous to think that it was even seriously considered, let alone actually made it into the game.
Do try to think before you call others idiots. I know it may make you feel good, being a little insecure in your own position, but really it isn't called for.
I'd rather die in battle against a man who will lie to me, than for a man who will lie to me. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
142
|
Posted - 2012.06.18 22:58:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ayame Yoshida wrote:A lot of this anti-AUR sentiment seems to be glossing over the fact that all these items are purchasable through effort in game. It is in no means reliant on you personally paying real money for it.
You make isk
You buy PLEX - PLEX in itself is a good idea because it basically represents someone paying your subscription fee for you in exchange for you putting work in on their behalf which is good for people who may have more time but less money.
You turn it into AUR
You spend it on clothes.
Or better yet, a lot of clothes are actually purchasable for isk at a cheaper price than if you had followed the steps above. Nobody is being excluded from this content. Yes it favours people with real money and lets hem advance in game for less effort just because they can pay, which I'm not a fan of, but it does allow someone else who puts effort in the game to play for free so it's better than most real money systems out there.
And letGÇÖs face it at least it isn't pay to win.
Being able to get these items without having to pay real money is indeed a good thing. However, the fact that they come from real money at all (and can then be sold to gain an in-game advantage in the form of ISK) is the real crux of the problem. Both aspects of this problem are crucial. The first aspect being something coming from nothing (which already happens in a faucet/sink system, only now it's involving real money) and the second aspect being that you can sell these things for in-game currency.
The faucet/sink system would not be a problem in a theme-park game. In a sandbox, however, especially one whose core concept is to be the ultimate science fiction simulator, it is far less than ideal for obvious reasons.
Being able to buy an advantage for real money might be fine for an arcade-style game (I brought more quarters than you which increases my chances of beating you to the point where you can't play anymore while I still have plenty of quarters to spare.) However, it's not fine for a subscription based game, especially one which is not only highly competitive but also one which is suppose to be something of a simulation. The purity and integrity of the simulation is compromised with such a system. As if it wasn't already compromised enough by PLEX, underwater physics, dumb-as-rocks NPCs, etc.
All in all, while I'm really glad that CCP at least made it so that you can get this content entirely within the realm of the game, the fact that you can also get it from outside of the game is incredible (and not the good kind of incredible, either.)
Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
143
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Posted - 2012.06.18 23:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Christmas OnFIre wrote:I think we can probably draw a line under this statement and call it a day.
Line drawn. See you tomorrow.
Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |
Mechael
Ouroboros Executor Collective
147
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Posted - 2012.06.19 22:14:00 -
[22] - Quote
PinkKnife wrote:[quote=Gyllian Gael]CCP was never going to, and had never planned to, introduce a pay to win scenario.
In fact, they said multiple times, over and over again, clearly, in bold print, that their intent is the opposite of this. Why people fail to understand this point, is beyond me.
For ****'s sake it was almost a year ago already, let it go.
It's been "pay-to-win" (read: buy an advantage with real money) ever since they introduced PLEX. And just because the big hubbaloo happened a year ago doesn't mean we don't still have the same problem today. Very little has been fixed.
CCP is very lucky they're pretty much the only sandbox spaceship MMO out there, otherwise they wouldn't have room for mistakes like NeX.
Edit: Once again, in case people read this without reading my other posts, Incarna itself is freaking awesome. It's the microtransactions that are terrible.
Whether or not you win the game matters not. -áIt's if you bought it. |
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