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Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2009.11.22 00:25:00 - [1] I'm thinking about training for another races intys, with mostly solo in mind, and just need a few opinions on which one. Currently I'm leaning towards the Taranis. The Crusader which can operate outside web/scram range seems to have more "gtfo" potential but with lower tank and gank seems like it'll be running more than killing. Am I wrong? If there's something I've overlooked I'd quite like to know before I set the skill going. Thanks
Suas Perkone	Posted - 2009.11.22 00:32:00 - [2] Taranis is the best dogfighting Inty, by far. _________________________ HELLO! My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. PREPARE TO DIE!
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.11.22 00:57:00 - [3] Originally by: Suas Taranis is the best dogfighting Inty, by far. No it isn't. Train both though, it'll be worth it. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'
Panzram GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.22 01:56:00 - [4] They are both good ships but the Taranis has a more forgiving learning curve as the tactics are significantly different for the two ships. If you don't know the difference fly the taranis, and think twice before engaging crusaders. They're the only other frig that really poses a threat if flown correctly. If the pilot is dumb or not paying attention you'll have no trouble.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2009.11.22 02:02:00 - [5] Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 22/11/2009 02:02:25 Would you mind elaborating on 'sader tactics? And what sort of threat they pose to a Taranis? I thought their margin of error for getting into scram range would be small enough that a well timed overheat on the 'ranis part would murder it. Quick bit of background; I've been flying a standard missile Crow so far but found it a bit lacking after a while.
Liang Nuren No Salvation War.Pigs.	Posted - 2009.11.22 02:13:00 - [6] I'm a huge fan of the Crusader - definitely my favorite interceptor. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2009.11.22 02:13:00 - [7] Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 22/11/2009 02:02:25 Would you mind elaborating on 'sader tactics? And what sort of threat they pose to a Taranis? I thought their margin of error for getting into scram range would be small enough that a well timed overheat on the 'ranis part would murder it. Quick bit of background; I've been flying a standard missile Crow so far but found it a bit lacking after a while. Fly manually, don't fall for the 'on no I am running away' trick where they fly away then do a quick 180 overload to get the scram on. He's going to need a stunningly times overload to catch me and even then, chances are I've done so much hurt I'll still win the damage race (bear in mind that even when scrammed it takes time for the 'ranis to pull into blaster range and stop overshooting). If you go for the 'ranis you can offset that by fitting a web. Current fashion is MWD+AB+Scram, but being able to snare other frigs at 13km will really help. Using Null instead of AM is advisable as well. The Crusader excels at controlling fights - if a 'ranis and 'sader fight each other with both pilots flying flawlessly the 'sader wins by staying outside range and wearing him down. The 'ranis is better if you're not solo though and pretty much everything is better than a Crow. The Claw is worth considering as well: plated-neut Claws can be nasty. Putting the 'irate' into 'Pirate'
Hunter Hughes Caldari Multiversal Enterprise Inc. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.11.22 02:21:00 - [8] so essentially crusader= best solo and taranis= best fleet. seems like the crusader could kite just bout anything, including cruisers and kill it and the ranis is good at smokin small vessels distracted in an engagement Originally by: GinoShin Edited by: GinoShin on 21/11/2006 11:41:44 whats evemon is it like a jamican wiseman?
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.22 02:38:00 - [9] Originally by: Hunter Hughes so essentially crusader= best solo and taranis= best fleet. seems like the crusader could kite just bout anything, including cruisers and kill it and the ranis is good at smokin small vessels distracted in an engagement No. Fleet ceptors with just scrams are NOT OP... Crusader and Ranis are both close (not so close for the sader, that's its main strength) dog-fighting machines. Practically those can butcher most frigates easily, except good fitted assault frigates and say - bait stilettos with TDs etc Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
Ignitious Hellfury Minmatar Republic Military Skool	Posted - 2009.11.22 03:22:00 - [10] Originally by: Diomidis Originally by: Hunter Hughes so essentially crusader= best solo and taranis= best fleet. seems like the crusader could kite just bout anything, including cruisers and kill it and the ranis is good at smokin small vessels distracted in an engagement No. Fleet ceptors with just scrams are NOT OP... Crusader and Ranis are both close (not so close for the sader, that's its main strength) dog-fighting machines. Practically those can butcher most frigates easily, except good fitted assault frigates and say - bait stilettos with TDs etc and those pesky jamming helioses... dangerous bastards they are.
Kirzath Blackwater Syndicate	Posted - 2009.11.22 03:40:00 - [11] Taranises kill Claws, Claws kill Crusaders, Crusaders kill Taranises. So train all 3.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.22 03:55:00 - [12] Originally by: Kirzath Taranises kill Claws, Claws kill Crusaders, Crusaders kill Taranises. So train all 3. Those are not "rules" someone can count on... No, claws cannot kill crusaders all the time, just like crusaders don't kill Taranises all the time...even with good skills and experience. I have many fights with and against taranises and crusaders ending in low structure (for both myself and the enemy), and no claw has even beaten either my ranis or crusader. Actually tho I can fly the claw and have some interested setups in EFT, those stay there. The claw's niche is way more limited than both the ranis and the sader. Nontheless, training for more than one ceptor is not that of a big deal, and tho you won't find exciting T2 frigs (yes, I don't really like amarr AS) in the amarr line other than the crusader and the sentinel, both the Gallente and the Minmatar have good T2 frigs. For dog-fight ceptors tho, I think the Ranis and the Crusader are OP... Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!
SwineFlu H1N1	Posted - 2009.11.22 04:13:00 - [13] I think you all are forgetting that not all Taranis are fit with blasters, even tho thats by far the most common. A properly fit/flown rail ranis will crush a Crusader(or any other inty for that matter) any day of the week. OP, if you are only going to train for one inty, go for the Taranis and don't look back. It's a truly amazing little ship.
Suas Perkone	Posted - 2009.11.22 07:39:00 - [14] Originally by: Hunter Hughes so essentially crusader= best solo and taranis= best fleet. seems like the crusader could kite just bout anything, including cruisers and kill it and the ranis is good at smokin small vessels distracted in an engagement Holy smokes... So many stupid people in this thread. _________________________ HELLO! My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. PREPARE TO DIE!
Deva Blackfire 24th Imperial Crusade	Posted - 2009.11.22 07:59:00 - [15] Since the day CCP introduced overloading crusaders can only "kite" ceptor pilots who cant overheat at all. As soon as taranis pilots overheats MWD sader "kiting" ends - with dead sader. So yeah if you want to solo go taranis all the way. The ONLY exception would be solo killing npcers in guristas regions due to racial resists (kin/therm) where sader would hit on unhardened part. Except for this ranis > sader all the way.
Kirzath Blackwater Syndicate	Posted - 2009.11.22 09:44:00 - [16] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Since the day CCP introduced overloading crusaders can only "kite" ceptor pilots who cant overheat at all. As soon as taranis pilots overheats MWD sader "kiting" ends - with dead sader You need to take into account that a Taranis without speedmods goes 5.2 km/s with heat. A Crusader does 5.1 km/s without heat, so the Taranis will be hard pressed to grab the Crusader before taking too much damage.
Suas Perkone	Posted - 2009.11.22 10:21:00 - [17] Originally by: Kirzath Originally by: Deva Blackfire Since the day CCP introduced overloading crusaders can only "kite" ceptor pilots who cant overheat at all. As soon as taranis pilots overheats MWD sader "kiting" ends - with dead sader You need to take into account that a Taranis without speedmods goes 5.2 km/s with heat. A Crusader does 5.1 km/s without heat, so the Taranis will be hard pressed to grab the Crusader before taking too much damage. You're one of the few good Crusader pilots who do well when staying at range, but honestly - Crusader doesn't come close to the solo'ing potential a Taranis has. And rarely will you beat a competent pilot in an inty duel when your optimal is like 3k from overloaded scram range. _________________________ HELLO! My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. PREPARE TO DIE!
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.11.22 10:53:00 - [18] Edited by: Grimpak on 22/11/2009 10:53:34 Originally by: Kirzath Originally by: Deva Blackfire Since the day CCP introduced overloading crusaders can only "kite" ceptor pilots who cant overheat at all. As soon as taranis pilots overheats MWD sader "kiting" ends - with dead sader You need to take into account that a Taranis without speedmods goes 5.2 km/s with heat. A Crusader does 5.1 km/s without heat, so the Taranis will be hard pressed to grab the Crusader before taking too much damage. and then your mwd gets shot, while "trying" to chew thru the armor and hull of a 'ranis. and then you're dead in the water. also, T2 warriors. the reason why a 'ranis is very good is that it puts firepower (in form of either blasters or rails, altho I don't like rail setups that much + drones), **ing massive EHP for an interceptor, since it's pretty much the only one that can take the most out of the DCU's, and a balanced slot layout in a single package. All this and the only negative point of the 'ranis is the lowest base speed of all the interceptors. the crusader is a good and fast interceptor, but it's more usefull in packs due to the limited medslots and somewhat inferior firepower vs 'ranis. not saying that a crusader won't kill a taranis 100% of the time however. Both are very different machines that operate at different roles, and in fleets I would prefer to use the crusader vs the taranis. do bear in mind however that to achieve "awesome" status on a blaster-config taranis you will die alot. and by allot, I really do mean allot. operability ranges of a blasterranis barely goes over the 9km range, considering weapons, 2pointers, webs and drones, and that's why you see a crapload of taranis kills on the boards, since, like all blasterships, they work on a "do-or-die" principle. sure that some people use a dual-prop taranis (good setup btw), or a warp scram+jam combo, or even a railranis, but imho, the classic short range blasterranis is still my favourite even considering that the basis of this setup has existed for years. on a final note, damage controls are mandatory, no exceptions. --- Quote:** The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Artemis Rose Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE	Posted - 2009.11.22 11:03:00 - [19] Originally by: Grimpak and then your mwd gets shot, while "trying" to chew thru the armor and hull of a 'ranis....and then you're dead in the water. All the Crusader has to do is overheat in response, unless you magically think overheat damage will just happen to just one interceptor. Most Taranis's do that lolfit AB/MWD thing, so you won't even have a web to assist you in chasing down a Crusader. A short note on why the dualprop setup is a waste. The two things that will destroy you in a matter of moments are Neuts and Small Drones. The AB does NOTHING to save you in either situation. Quote: also, T2 warriors. Just about full turret DPS applied to the Taranis due to minimal transversal compared to the DPS of two Warrior IIs. I wonder which one wins the HP race? *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats
CanIHave YourStuff Minmatar Amamake Money Off You Dummy IRL .ingame.	Posted - 2009.11.22 11:20:00 - [20] Originally by: Suas Holy smokes... So many stupid people in this thread. Any thread you post in has at least one guaranteed moron amirite
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.11.22 11:31:00 - [21] Originally by: Artemis Rose Originally by: Grimpak and then your mwd gets shot, while "trying" to chew thru the armor and hull of a 'ranis....and then you're dead in the water. All the Crusader has to do is overheat in response, unless you magically think overheat damage will just happen to just one interceptor. Most Taranis's do that lolfit AB/MWD thing, so you won't even have a web to assist you in chasing down a Crusader. A short note on why the dualprop setup is a waste. The two things that will destroy you in a matter of moments are Neuts and Small Drones. The AB does NOTHING to save you in either situation. Quote: also, T2 warriors. Just about full turret DPS applied to the Taranis due to minimal transversal compared to the DPS of two Warrior IIs. I wonder which one wins the HP race? point one: who said I overloaded my mwd while you had your overloaded aswell? People think that since you're in a taranis you should get into the fight with all racks overloaded because every interceptor is faster than you? You know? manual maneuvering existed looooong before overheating, and people managed to kill faster ships quite well with that. main point here is that one of the most important skills for a taranis (and any blastership) pilot is battlefield analysis. I also referred to the dual-prop setups, but that's not a setup that I use btw, and yes I agree with you in that point. point 2: considering my skills, crusader's lasers have to chew thru armor with 57% and 44% resistances (EM and thermal respectively, and then you have to chew thru over 800 HP of hull with blanked 60% resistances. Add the fact that is rare the taranis that fits no more than an OD, which doesn't nerf the hull HP. The crusader has a bit more armor in it, but less hull, so a taranis has to chew thru 36% and 44% and 40% armor resistances, considering the damage type range available to a taranis with T2 warriors (kin, therm and expl respectively). At hull you're looking at numbers arround 750 HP with 60% blanket resistances, BUT, crusaders are usually speed-fitted so you might see a mixture of OD's and nanofibs there, so the hull HP might be lower, and some people fit speed rigs, so there's even another blow to the EHP of the ship. now to all that, you add the fact that an ion taranis with 1 damage mod and 2 T2 warriors mod does arround 180dps, this with null ammo, while a speed-fitted DLP crusader barely scratches the 100dps figures with scorch (25dps more if using a damage mod, totalling for nearly 130dps of mostly EM with a bit of therm dmg), and you can see why crusaders will have a hard time to kill taranises. Not that they won't, but there are more optimal targets than a taranis for a crusader, like crows. Taranis vs crusader is a more balanced fight where it pretty much depends more on pilot skill than character skill and the ship itself tbh. --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Simon Mickey	Posted - 2009.11.22 11:39:00 - [22] Edited by: Simon Mickey on 22/11/2009 11:41:42 Sader. Everyone and their mother flies the Taranis now, everyone uses null, everyone uses dual prop. There's a few different fits you can use but for the most part the Taranis and what it can do is well out in the open. The crusader still gives you some degree of mystery. Failing that, fly a laser vigil. It's p pro. edit: You are bad at this game Artemis. I've got half of my kills in the ranis, and El'Tar, Duncan Tanner and assorted others have many more than I do. I think you'll find most of them are more experienced than you, and most of them do not share your opinion.
Grimpak Gallente Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group	Posted - 2009.11.22 11:43:00 - [23] Edited by: Grimpak on 22/11/2009 11:43:30 Originally by: Simon Mickey Sader. Everyone and their mother flies the Taranis now, everyone uses null, everyone uses dual prop. There's a few different fits you can use but for the most part the Taranis and what it can do is well out in the open. The crusader still gives you some degree of mystery. Failing that, fly a laser vigil. It's p pro. options aren't that great to a 'sader aswell, unless you're using a plated gatling laser setup, you either use DLP's with a speed fit, with 1 damage mod, or you slam a MAPC there and go DLB's. medslots also aren't that hard to guess, since it'll be most likely mwd + 1pointer setups (altho the gatling plated setup with AB + 2pointer might be interesting, if not for lols) or, knowing you, it's a troll post --- Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals. ain't that right.
Duchess Starbuckington	Posted - 2009.11.22 11:50:00 - [24] Thanks to everyone for the helpful feedback, I think I'm settled on the Taranis for the moment Quote: And rarely will you beat a competent pilot in an inty duel when your optimal is like 3k from overloaded scram range. See this is exactly what I was worried about. Also; how do you set up a rail ranis? I don't think I've even seen one of those in ages, let alone know exactly what range they work at.
DeadDuck Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.22 12:00:00 - [25] Why everybody underestimate the malediction ? It has low firepower but is fast and can easily kit all the other opponents choosing the best damage to deal. It will beat a Taranis if you know how to explore the Taranis weaknesses, the low velocity and short range. Is probably the best interceptor to fleet roles fitting a 24k disruptor (30 km range in malediction) and a sensor booster while still being very fast. God is my Wingman
Simon Mickey	Posted - 2009.11.22 12:01:00 - [26] Edited by: Simon Mickey on 22/11/2009 12:01:48 Originally by: Grimpak options aren't that great to a 'sader aswell, unless you're using a plated gatling laser setup, you either use DLP's with a speed fit, with 1 damage mod, or you slam a MAPC there and go DLB's. medslots also aren't that hard to guess, since it'll be most likely mwd + 1pointer setups (altho the gatling plated setup with AB + 2pointer might be interesting, if not for lols) or, knowing you, it's a troll post Was semi serious. If I see a ranis now, I can pretty much guess it's going to be one of two fits. It's very uncommon to see anything else now and the stuff that is different is usually sub-par to your 2xmagstab rail ranis or your standard dual prop blaster ranis. Sader on the other hand still leaves a lot to the imagination. You don't know how the person will fly it, while there are cookie cutter fits it's not nearly the same as the ranis in terms of people using them. A crusader on the other hand? edit: DeadDuck, I'd be happy to 1v1 a malediction in my ranis any day of the week. You can't kit when you're dead.
Kirzath Blackwater Syndicate	Posted - 2009.11.22 12:19:00 - [27] Originally by: Simon Mickey edit: DeadDuck, I'd be happy to 1v1 a malediction in my ranis any day of the week. You can't kit when you're dead. An AB Malediction with web and 2-point can kill any other interceptor, including Taranis, as long as it can get an initial tackle. It can kite Null at 8km, or orbit at 500m for fubar tracking against other weapon systems. It's actually pretty humiliating having to endure slowly dying to rockets. However, it's pretty trivial to avoid getting within their tackle range in the first place (lol AB)
Roland Deschaines Minmatar The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre	Posted - 2009.11.22 12:40:00 - [28] Why are you all assuming MWD on Sader? -- Monsieur Rolly
DeadDuck Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.22 13:40:00 - [29] Originally by: Simon Mickey edit: DeadDuck, I'd be happy to 1v1 a malediction in my ranis any day of the week. You can't kit when you're dead. Actually I've done it several times... works like a charm. If you use a rail ranis it will be way more dificult but a blaster ranis? God is my Wingman
Dibsi Dei Salamyhkaisten kilta HYDRA RELOADED	Posted - 2009.11.22 13:50:00 - [30] Originally by: Roland Deschaines Why are you all assuming MWD on Sader? why would anyone fight ab saders?

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