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Skira Ranos
Blood Money Inc.
The Blood Money Cartel
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Posted - 2009.11.23 03:59:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Skira Ranos on 23/11/2009 04:02:52
I am fairly well known for my stance on honoring ransoms and 1v1 agreements as a business practice, and as such I know my stance is extremely unpopular on here. However, I feel compelled to post a longer diatribe on my stance here, where at least it has a small chance of not landing on deaf ears. If you're adverse to long posts, you might want to leave now.
Blog Post < This is too long for a forum post on here, but the entire thing can be read on my blog here.
If you're a TL:DR person,
TL;DR : If everyone where to honor ransoms, more people would pay them. For those of us who make money ransoming, it would make life easier as a pirate, so unless you're a greifer theres no sound, logical reason to dishonor ransoms and 1v1s.
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Now Recruiting
Kokuryu Pirate Blog
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Miyamoto Isoruku
Caldari
The Phoenix Enclave
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Posted - 2009.11.23 04:35:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Miyamoto Isoruku on 23/11/2009 04:36:29
Can we say "Prisoner's Dilemma"?
EDIT: WTF CCP why'd you strip the apostrophe out of my link?
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Jonny 101
Cruoris Seraphim
Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.11.23 04:46:00 -
[3]
I'm pretty well known for violating my word, ransoms, 1v1s....I basicly have a rule, if I can do the bad thing..I will do it.
And you know what, i'm probably the richest person who'll post in this thread, what does that tell you of the logic behind honour?
It tells me, that ten suckers are born every minute, and nine of them will never read the forum.
Signature needs to be more EVE related. Zymurgist |
Gauss Markov
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Posted - 2009.11.23 04:49:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Miyamoto Isoruku
Can we say "Prisoner's Dilemma"?
/thread
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Gauss Markov
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Posted - 2009.11.23 04:55:00 -
[5]
I made a Boys Noize channel on Pandora
Seatbelts channel too (goes good with Rifters/Wolfs)
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Skira Ranos
Blood Money Inc.
The Blood Money Cartel
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Posted - 2009.11.23 05:57:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Miyamoto Isoruku
Edited by: Miyamoto Isoruku on 23/11/2009 04:36:29
Can we say "Prisoner's Dilemma"?
EDIT: WTF CCP why'd you strip the apostrophe out of my link?
Yes, this is a kind of prisoners dilenma, but with the added dimension of repetition. Seeing as the "prisoners" get to repeatedly test the dilemma
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Now Recruiting
Kokuryu Pirate Blog
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Tiny Tove
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Posted - 2009.11.23 11:23:00 -
[7]
Depends.
In can flipping / mission interruption scenarios there is no such thing as repeat business. Once I have played my card, and I have the guy ransomed, there is no reason for me to let him go once he paid. Unless he is unbelievably stupid, he will never fall for my shenanigans ever again, therefore I should maximise my profits with a ransom and a loot.
If that makes your life harder, boo hoo. It's a sandbox. With edges. That is, where ISK flows one way, it does not flow another. If I am feeling robbed because a T2 module drop is worth nearly nothing these days, it's ok, because the ones I want to buy cost nearly nothing, thus I'm still up on the deal as much as I was. So if you don't get your ISK later, it doesn't matter, because somebody else, somewhere else did get that ISK, and the effects of that ISK eventually come around to all players. So whatever occurs really does not matter.
Agreeably, if I ransom a Golem for 1billion ISK, I am a lot further ahead than taking the T2 stuff he should have fitted, and by a large margin, so why should I pop him and take it? No such thing as repeat business, that's why. I'll never see another ISK out of this guy, this visit really is it.
Also, lowsec, 0.0 and to a lesser extent, wardecs, repeat business is not only possible, but almost guaranteed. Therefore to "max my bucket" I should honour my ransom. Unless it's nearly the end of the war with no real appetite for redeclaration, or if I'm due to move out of a particular low/0.0 pocket soon.
So yes, I could honour them all and make your life easier for you, and every other pirate, ninja or whatever role playing badmofo is cool this week, make their lives easier for them, but since someday I may end up competing with them for some scraps, I'd rather you and they were as weak as I could have inadvertently made you. Especially as I'd dishonour the ransom, and then you'd do that chest beating thing where you wardec, or hire mercs, whatever it is you cool kids do these days. |
Skira Ranos
Blood Money Inc.
The Blood Money Cartel
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Posted - 2009.11.23 11:43:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Skira Ranos on 23/11/2009 11:44:33
Generally agree with your post, but as this was aimed at pirates, theres nothing I said in there that contradicts what you stated. I'm not looking for high sec bears when I hunt.
Originally by: Tiny Tove
Also, lowsec, 0.0 and to a lesser extent, wardecs, repeat business is not only possible, but almost guaranteed. Therefore to "max my bucket" I should honour my ransom. Unless it's nearly the end of the war with no real appetite for redeclaration, or if I'm due to move out of a particular low/0.0 pocket soon.
This is the only thing I'd take note of. The problem isn't repeat business, its reputation. If you get a rep as someone who won't honor ransoms (and thus any corp you are part of gets the rep by proxy unless they vigorously deny it and "reprimand" you) and people who do their research or "know a guy who knows a guy" will also not pay you.
But, like I said, you're after high sec bears. High sec bears are stupid. Really stupid. They isolate, they only talk to friends and their corps, etc.
This makes them easy prey, and while I wouldn't personally enjoy attacking them, if you're the kind to do it, pull it off and do it well, then I say *shrugs* go for the violated ransom. The kind of person who missions in high sec generally will never find their way into my hands anyways. You could even end up with faction loot.
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Now Recruiting
Kokuryu Pirate Blog
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Kazang
Gallente
Wrecking Shots
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Posted - 2009.11.23 11:49:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Kazang on 23/11/2009 11:49:40
Personally I'm a man of my word when it comes to 1v1's, not from an e-honour point of view but because its just lame and not really fun to gank some lone dude after you asked for a 1v1. While it compromises chances of future epic 1v1s.
Ransoms are pretty much the same deal but less clear cut. I do have a rough rule of honouring ransoms, especially if its a decent sized one. However that one really does depend in the situation.
I do think there is sound logical reason to dishonour a ransom if a ship is full of phat loot and other goodies, compounded by the fact you may never see that person again and will probably have no negative effect for whoever is doing the ransoming.
Kazang
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Skira Ranos
Blood Money Inc.
The Blood Money Cartel
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Posted - 2009.11.23 12:49:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kazang
Edited by: Kazang on 23/11/2009 11:49:40
Personally I'm a man of my word when it comes to 1v1's, not from an e-honour point of view but because its just lame and not really fun to gank some lone dude after you asked for a 1v1. While it compromises chances of future epic 1v1s.
Ransoms are pretty much the same deal but less clear cut. I do have a rough rule of honouring ransoms, especially if its a decent sized one. However that one really does depend in the situation.
I do think there is sound logical reason to dishonour a ransom if a ship is full of phat loot and other goodies, compounded by the fact you may never see that person again and will probably have no negative effect for whoever is doing the ransoming.
"The aspect that most pirates do not seem to grasp is that while repeat business from a single ransom victim is unlikely, the overall effect on the ransom environment is repercussive. You are but a single part of a larger problem"
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Kokuryu Pirate Blog
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Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.11.23 12:51:00 -
[11]
When I post a ransom, I honor it.
I do not always post a ransom tho.
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http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
Tiny Tove
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Posted - 2009.11.23 13:25:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Skira Ranos
"The aspect that most pirates do not seem to grasp is that while repeat business from a single ransom victim is unlikely, the overall effect on the ransom environment is repercussive. You are but a single part of a larger problem"
Well if he doesn't agree with you, it logically follows that he simply doesn't understand the issues. |
Skira Ranos
Blood Money Inc.
The Blood Money Cartel
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Posted - 2009.11.23 13:36:00 -
[13]
Nay, he said nothing regarding the logic of such, merely stated his behavior. I rebutted him with a qoute from the article under discussion which he did not actually refute.
I did not state he was wrong, merely qouted my opinion of his behavior, which he neither defended nor used to contradict my own, he merely (thus far) stated it.
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Now Recruiting
Kokuryu Pirate Blog
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TimMc
Gallente
Brutal Deliverance
Extreme Prejudice.
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Posted - 2009.11.23 14:14:00 -
[14]
I never ransom, simply because I am never sure enough that they don't have friends coming and I enjoy the explosion.
In the odd situation that they offer me alot of money, I might take it and leave. However it may just reinforce me belief that they have good loot. Week ago I found an ishtar in a plex and attacked him with my drake. Figured neither of us could break eachothers tanks and so I called in backup. In the mean time though he tried to get me to let him go for 50mil. Good offer I would have taken if no one online.
But on topic of logic of honour, there is no real logic. Honour is just a code of conduct that increases reputation. Same reason you wouldn't steal the corp wallet or assets, because your reputation would be tarnished.
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FunzzeR
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.11.23 18:40:00 -
[15]
Like the others said, ransoming is a classic example of a sequential prisoner's dilemma. The reason so many people dishonor ransoms is that the probability of ever catching the same victim is slim.
So if the ransom is high enough and the probability of getting good loot off the victim's ship i.e. a faction fit mission ship is greater than the ransom plus the probability of getting future payments from the same victim then the said pirate has an incentive to dishonor the ransom.
In pure game theory its all about the incentives and disincentives.
Interestingly enough, it could be argued that pirate corps that enforce the policy of honoring ransoms and 1v1s play the Tragedy of the Commons game and try to preserve the "hunting grounds" for the future benefit of the group. 
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Drunk Driver
Gallente
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.11.23 18:51:00 -
[16]
#1 Attack and hold ship
#2 Demand max ransom
#3 Receive ransom
#4 Destroy ship for mods and cargo
#5 Attack and hold pod
#6 Demand max ransom
#7 Receive ransom
#8 Pod and laugh
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Darkeshi Dlor
Caldari
CKSSA Industries Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.23 19:39:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Skira Ranos
Edited by: Skira Ranos on 23/11/2009 11:44:33
This is the only thing I'd take note of. The problem isn't repeat business, its reputation. If you get a rep as someone who won't honor ransoms (and thus any corp you are part of gets the rep by proxy unless they vigorously deny it and "reprimand" you) and people who do their research or "know a guy who knows a guy" will also not pay you.
Confirming reputation does not spread quite as far as you might think.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1211317&page=2
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Nieusha
Insidious Existence
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.11.23 19:43:00 -
[18]
Logic is a fallacy
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Sara Bonnaro
Minmatar
Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2009.11.23 19:59:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Drunk Driver
#1 Attack and hold ship
#2 Demand max ransom
#3 Receive ransom
#4 Destroy ship for mods and cargo
#5 Attack and hold pod
#6 Demand max ransom
#7 Receive ransom
#8 Pod and laugh
Has anyone ever actually done 7? I mean you'd have to be pretty stupid.
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Jonny 101
Cruoris Seraphim
Exalted.
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Posted - 2009.11.23 20:25:00 -
[20]
1. Receive 1.8b for protection and blue standings.
2. Get them to jump a rorqual into the cyno fitted on your paladin
3. Attack and ransom rorqual for 1b isk
4. blow up rorqual
5. Convince them it was all their mistake and get blue standings replaced
6. Destroy their mining op mere minutes later
7. Convince them it was all an error and get blue standings replaced
8. Wait one day and blow up multiple ravens
9. Convince them it was all done by a traitor and get blue standings replaced
10. Blow up some more ravens
11. Claim the traitor had a traitor friend and get blue standings replaced
To my knowledge, these guys still have us blue, though I havent had anything to do with them for a few months.
And yes, it's all really true, even the part about a cyno paladin, you can actually see it happen in the credits of rawr christina's last video, behind all the writing...because apparantly cyno-paladin's aren't as epic as DRAKES *grumble*, but thats another story.
Signature needs to be more EVE related. Zymurgist |
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Paul Clavet
Honorless Internet Jerks
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Posted - 2009.11.24 01:34:00 -
[21]
If you want to honor ransoms as a business strategy, that's up to you.
I do not honor them, because I'm an Honorless Internet Jerk and anyone that sends me money based on my word alone deserves what they get.
I don't think it's a bad thing at all that some reputable pirates like the Bastards honor ransoms. I think organizations that make a name for themselves as honoring ransoms could probably make pretty good money at it. Hats off to them.
However, don't expect your e-bullshido code in a video game. If you want to live by it, I salute you. Keep it the hell away from me.
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Blog: My Loot, Your Tears |
Skira Ranos
Blood Money Inc.
The Blood Money Cartel
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Posted - 2009.11.24 02:41:00 -
[22]
Originally by: FunzzeR
Like the others said, ransoming is a classic example of a sequential prisoner's dilemma. The reason so many people dishonor ransoms is that the probability of ever catching the same victim is slim.
"The aspect that most pirates do not seem to grasp is that while repeat business from a single ransom victim is unlikely, the overall effect on the ransom environment is repercussive. You are but a single part of a larger problem"
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Now Recruiting
Kokuryu Pirate Blog
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Darkeshi Dlor
Caldari
CKSSA Industries Inc.
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Posted - 2009.11.24 03:25:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Skira Ranos
"The aspect that most pirates do not seem to grasp is that while repeat business from a single ransom victim is unlikely, the overall effect on the ransom environment is repercussive. You are but a single part of a larger problem"
So what you are saying is that pirates should honor ransom for the greater wealth of all pirates?
You want communist pirates?!
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Lana's Alt
Minmatar Republic Military Skool
HYDRA RELOADED
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Posted - 2009.11.24 03:54:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Jonny 101
1. Receive 1.8b for protection and blue standings.
2. Get them to jump a rorqual into the cyno fitted on your paladin
3. Attack and ransom rorqual for 1b isk
4. blow up rorqual
5. Convince them it was all their mistake and get blue standings replaced
6. Destroy their mining op mere minutes later
7. Convince them it was all an error and get blue standings replaced
8. Wait one day and blow up multiple ravens
9. Convince them it was all done by a traitor and get blue standings replaced
10. Blow up some more ravens
11. Claim the traitor had a traitor friend and get blue standings replaced
To my knowledge, these guys still have us blue, though I havent had anything to do with them for a few months.
And yes, it's all really true, even the part about a cyno paladin, you can actually see it happen in the credits of rawr christina's last video, behind all the writing...because apparantly cyno-paladin's aren't as epic as DRAKES *grumble*, but thats another story.
And people wonder why I love you...
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Kazang
Gallente
Wrecking Shots
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Posted - 2009.11.24 18:14:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Skira Ranos
"The aspect that most pirates do not seem to grasp is that while repeat business from a single ransom victim is unlikely, the overall effect on the ransom environment is repercussive. You are but a single part of a larger problem"
I am inclined to disagree with you here.
Certain people will pay a ransom regardless of the chances of it being honoured, see jonny101's post for proof of this matter.
Certain people will honour ransoms others will not, again there is no pattern or trend to graph out in excel. It's all dependent on the situation.
For instance if you try to ransom a rorqual for 500mil they will most likely pay it out of desperation and because its a relatively small ransom. The thought of it being dishonoured will be disregarded and they will gamble or they will will simple not pay you on principle.
Paying a ransom is a gamble, it's as simple as that. Sometimes you will be blown up others you will be allowed live. Most people who pay a ransom realise this. Contrary to your opinion the general amount of dishonoured ransoms does not effect the risk level of the gamble, its up to individuals.
If you want people to pay more ransoms get a rep for honouring them yourself, don't cry when others don't live up to your levels of e-honour.
There is no "larger problem" as you seem so keen to repeat.
Kazang
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Compleat Bacon
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Posted - 2009.11.24 18:48:00 -
[26]
Reputation? lol.
In a game where there are 45000 people online at one time (ok, 15-30k after alts), there is no such thing a global reputation. Hell, I doubt that more than 80% of the players know who Chribba is.
Currently zero sec players can enjoy a reputation, within zero sec, because it is mainly occupied by a small, long term part of the total population. Dominion may change that, which will lead to zero sec tears. (Maybe CCP is into zero sec tear collection.)
The OP is looking to maximize his income by ransom. Good luck with that. Others are looking to maximize their tear collection. Good luck with that as well. CCP is looking to maximize their income. Fear that...
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FunzzeR
Death of Virtue
MeatSausage EXPRESS
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Posted - 2009.11.24 19:15:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Skira Ranos
Originally by: FunzzeR
Like the others said, ransoming is a classic example of a sequential prisoner's dilemma. The reason so many people dishonor ransoms is that the probability of ever catching the same victim is slim.
"The aspect that most pirates do not seem to grasp is that while repeat business from a single ransom victim is unlikely, the overall effect on the ransom environment is repercussive. You are but a single part of a larger problem"
Fair point, but it only takes word of a few dishonored ransoms to spread for victims to choose not to cooperate and pay the ransom. Once people get it in their heads "pirates don't ransom" then they will likely never pay any ransom. Once that happens, most people will choose not to take the ransom. (google grim trigger strategy) And any cooperation reverts back to the original Nash {not cooperate, cheat}
I am merely stating the game theory intuition. I'm not necessarily agreeing with the logic afterall Meatsausage Express honors all ransoms.
PRAISE THE SCOTTISH FOLD!! |
Captain Tardbar
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.11.24 22:34:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Tiny Tove
Depends.
In can flipping / mission interruption scenarios there is no such thing as repeat business. Once I have played my card, and I have the guy ransomed, there is no reason for me to let him go once he paid. Unless he is unbelievably stupid, he will never fall for my shenanigans ever again, therefore I should maximise my profits with a ransom and a loot.
If that makes your life harder, boo hoo. It's a sandbox. With edges. That is, where ISK flows one way, it does not flow another. If I am feeling robbed because a T2 module drop is worth nearly nothing these days, it's ok, because the ones I want to buy cost nearly nothing, thus I'm still up on the deal as much as I was. So if you don't get your ISK later, it doesn't matter, because somebody else, somewhere else did get that ISK, and the effects of that ISK eventually come around to all players. So whatever occurs really does not matter.
This is why when negotiating ransoms I start overheating all the modules and stalling until 3 seconds before self destructing before ejecting.
But I have never been on the wrong end of a ransom so its just the thought the counts.
Also... I think the fact that you blow up the ships after receiving the ransom makes it less likely that other pirates will enjoy the same business again.
So by being unprofessional about it only hurts the trade.
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Zan Valis
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Posted - 2009.11.25 00:06:00 -
[29]
Most of the above statements confirm that I wont ever pay a ransom.
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Ian Morrolan
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2009.11.25 00:08:00 -
[30]
Ransoms are good for business -- that's why many reputable (if such a word can be used) pirate corps require their members to honor them. But besides that -- it's a whole new challenge.
You've just blown a target's ship to near oblivion, or have done so and have captured the pod. After doing that, you have to convince this person to pay you -- all the while watching your scanner to make sure his friends aren't coming to gank you.
I can't imagine why anyone would deprive themselves of that kind of fun 
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