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BlankWithNoSpaces
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Posted - 2009.11.23 21:15:00 -
[1]
When some wormhole like a 0477 or some such is spawned, is the K162 termination point of the wormhole discoverable? Or does that stay as "potential" until the O477 end is gone through? It seems like it would already exist.. but I'm not certain.
Thanks!
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2009.11.23 21:17:00 -
[2]
Its is pretty much impossible to prove it.
I say it does not .
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Captain Muscles
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Posted - 2009.11.23 21:18:00 -
[3]
Perhaps you should be asking, "Was the orignation point discoverable before I went through the K162?"
o.O
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2009.11.23 21:22:00 -
[4]
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 23/11/2009 21:26:29
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 23/11/2009 21:25:15
 Originally by: Captain Muscles
Perhaps you should be asking, "Was the orignation point discoverable before I went through the K162?"
o.O
Reading with understanding lvl 1 or 0 ?
Fixed version :
"Was the destination point discoverable before I went through the 0439?
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Kenz Rider
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Posted - 2009.11.23 21:29:00 -
[5]
I had a long debate on this with a corpmate one night and we could come to no conclusion. I believe it doesn't, he believes it does. It is provable in theory, but it would take a lot of resources to do it.
The main reason i think it doesn't exist, is that I never found a K162 in our WH and some corpmates claimed they found one once or twice only. So basically if it existed previous to going through, you would expect to find more of them. It's possible my corpmates were wrong about finding one, and our WH was never a destination system for any WH.
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Little known fact: 95% of DS's signatures have nothing to do with EVE. |
Captain Muscles
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Posted - 2009.11.23 21:31:00 -
[6]
Seeing as how my lame jokes are more potentially confusing than I thought, here is a serious answer to the OP.
I *think* that the other side is indeed already there. A possible experiment would be to scan somewhere non-stop until a wormhole appears. If this wormhole is a K162 and no one is detected by the non-stop scanning, then both ends were determined upon "birth."
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BlankWithNoSpaces
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Posted - 2009.11.23 21:34:00 -
[7]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 23/11/2009 21:27:44
Reading with understanding lvl 1 or 0 ? Though OP's english sucks.
Fixed version :
"Was the destination point discoverable before I went through the 0477?
Actually, I assumed that K162 would be know to be the termination point or, as you stated.. destination. That's what happens when I assume. 
Either way, why not address the original question or not post instead of sniping? 
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BlankWithNoSpaces
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Posted - 2009.11.23 21:43:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Captain Muscles
Seeing as how my lame jokes are more potentially confusing than I thought, here is a serious answer to the OP.
I *think* that the other side is indeed already there. A possible experiment would be to scan somewhere non-stop until a wormhole appears. If this wormhole is a K162 and no one is detected by the non-stop scanning, then both ends were determined upon "birth."
That's a better test than I have been able to come up with. Not sure I care to spend that much time doing so though!
Thanks for the idea.
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Gavin DeVries
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Posted - 2009.11.23 21:57:00 -
[9]
I have been told that neither the O477 nor the K162 (in this example) exist until someone scans for them in the origin system. I have no idea if this is true or not.
However, I can say this much. I'm currently living in a Class 2 system. Every day we get an A239 to low-sec and a D382 to another class 2. The D382 is listed by wormhole thingie as a 16 hour hole, but it consistently comes to its natural duration during our off hours. It may well only start its timer when the first one of us scans the system each day.
______________________________________________________
Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? |
Captain Muscles
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Posted - 2009.11.23 22:10:00 -
[10]
A couple of more feasible methods occurred to be while I was avoiding my work duties.
You could scan every hour or so, making note of the time if you find a "new" K162, along with the time that you last scanned and did not find it. Go through to the other side and put the actual wormhole ID into Wormhole info utility of your choice and see how long it is supposed to last. Check on it every once in a while, and then watch it as its lifetime is coming to an end. If it disappears naturally, and the amount of time that passed since you last scanned and did not find it is inconsistantly short, then the K162 must have appeared well after the wormhole was born.
I've been living in w-space for a couple of weeks, and most mornings I am sent back to the character selection screen on the first attempt because the system is still loading (well after dt is over.) Scan your system just before dt one morning. Log in several hours after dt. If you get the message saying it is still loading, and you find that there is a new K162 when you get into the system, then it could not have been created when someone went through because your system wasn't even loaded until just then.
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Akuma Kenatsuki
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Posted - 2009.11.23 23:55:00 -
[11]
If I recall correctly (and there's absolutely no guarantee of that), I read somewhere that the K162 appears as soon as the other end of the WH (grid) is first warped to, starting the degradation timer on each at that point. Again, there is no real way to prove this without having someone in the system it appears in, scanning as it appears. So just get a BUNCH of friends together, find a WH that goes to a certain type of space (hi-sec,low-sec, or 0.0), and put 1 person in each system of that type, scanning. Then find a WH from W-space leading to that system type and tell everyone to watch for your K162. You would only need a few thousand people to do this....
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Miyuki Shirafune
Hedion University
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Posted - 2009.11.24 00:59:00 -
[12]
I don't know if this N of 1 experience proves or disproves anything, but here goes ...
I scanned down a WH and warped to it, to discover it was a K162.
I jumped into it and noted the system name.
There were no ships on d-scan.
I then went to evemaps.dotlan.org (which is, at most, 1 hour behind on jumps) to pre-scout the Wspace, and there had been absolutely 0 jumps in the preceding 48 hours. The Class 2 that it linked up to, was similarly empty, with no jumps on dotlan.
So unless someone probed their way into that wspace, jumped into either adjoining wspace in the hour before evemaps updated their jump log, I concluded from that experience that the K162 existed because I, on the K162 side, had probed it out (not because someone on the static end had probed it out).
Toodles.
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Nishachara
Minmatar
Special Operations Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.24 05:22:00 -
[13]
I live in wh space for very long now...and i believe K162 isnt spawned right away after entry point wh is spawned...
The thing is...
We have a habit of writing exact time and date when some wh or other sig is scanned and so i stayed clocked in front of wh many times now waiting for it to despawn (or other times collapsed it) and than scanned other wh within minutes from its spawning...
And there are sometimes pretty big inconsistencies (more than an hour/even two) in the exact hour of spawning and despawning of, for example, hs wh(the type of hs wh whitch should last for 24 hours(B274))
So...when you find a fresh new just spawned wh on the description it says something like this:
"This wormhole has not yet begun its natural cycle...etc"
So if i am interested in which hs, for example, it leads and i jump through its the description changes in normal description of a young new wh...
But if i dont jump through it yet..."has not begun natural cycle .."part will stay for a few minutes..maybe an hour...
so..i think when wh is in this "natural cycle not begun yet " status K162 isnt formed yet on the other side, but if you jump through it..it will form...
...and also it will form on its own after some time if left unused...
That is what i believe based on observations of wh-s...
Also..if not formed right away i am 100% sure that K162 spawns at the other end of yet unused wh coz we had "guests" in wh a few times which came through hs wh that no one of us used after it spawned...
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Sader Rykane
Amarr
Midnight Sentinels
Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.11.24 06:02:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Sader Rykane on 24/11/2009 06:03:55
I for one believe the designation is set with the first person on grid for either end of the wormhole.
K162 is always the exit, and is only set after someone sees the entrance first.
The entrance is decided by first on grid.
The easiest way to test this theory, is first to just live in a wormhole and wait until someone uses your static wormhole in. You may have to wait a while but you WILL see someone come in your wormhole eventually.
Then check whether its K162 or not.
Sig Gallery is currently down: Contact me ingame for prices.
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Shana Matika
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Posted - 2009.11.24 08:47:00 -
[15]
Ok. Here is what i found and experienced:
A WH named K162 can lead anywere as it's the exitpoint of a previously scanned down WH.
A K162 leads to any system (as it's the generic name for the exitpoint).
Every WH X#### leads to a K162.
From this informations from the blogs, the data I observed and my experience:
When a WH spawns it generates 2 unknown Cosmic signatures. The WH itself don't exist until the first player warps onto grid. The grid that get warped first will spawn the named entrypoint. In this moment the Exit will spawn in destination system named K162.
This may be some thing of system limitation or database issue they had to compensate this way instead of naming the exit point in relation to source system. What ever it is: The site that get probed down and warped to first will get the "correct" name and the exit the name K162. The Wh itself can't be in playce before you arrive at the grid when this mechanic is in use. The exit has to exist in the moment the entry point get created/exist (and maybe here is the reason why it's named K162 - I could think about a database issue cause of table connections and dependencies).
So: If no end is scanned down the WH itself don't exist, just the grid where it will get created.
As soon as one end is scanned down both will spawn. The named as entry where the first player arrived and exit as K162.
If this is right: Yes, the K162 is in place before you arrived at the grid or even scanned down the site
Disclaimer: All the above is speculative and just a theory about this and how it could work as it made sense from an technical view from my experience and my technical knowledge about databases and how relations get handled within these. As you can always think about EvE as a gigantic SQL Database everything has to follow the base Database-rulse. One is: There can't be just one side of a relation between tables.
Would be nice to see some blue ink here if this is at least in some points right ;)
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khazak mokl
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Posted - 2009.11.24 09:17:00 -
[16]
Its a bit like saying you build a house with a new front door but havent used it yet. From the outside the door is there. But does the other side of the door truely exist unless you go through it to cherck? Quantum physics wuold suggest that until you go through the door both states are equally likely to be possible. ie on one hand the otherside of the door exists and/or it does not exist. We in the real world know that of course the otherside exists before you go through it.
The devs must be laughing there heads of at us debating if the world is flat.
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rubico1337
Caldari
Mnemonic Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.11.24 10:06:00 -
[17]
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mille soli
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Posted - 2009.11.24 10:18:00 -
[18]
this thread is now officially about lolcats
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JonShannow
Caldari
Regante
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Posted - 2009.11.24 10:28:00 -
[19]
dont exist till someone scans down the point of origin
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Tameris Khan
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Posted - 2009.11.24 11:06:00 -
[20]
I live in a WH with 6 static exits 4 of which are to highsec Kspace. I believe that the k162 is only spawned after warping onto grid with its origin.
This is the same mechanic that starts the 3 day count down for site expiry.
To test this theory, my corp and I collapsed all our WHs. We then scanned but did not warp to any of our WHs. For the following 24 hours several of us checked dir scanner & combat probes set to 64au and we saw absolutely nobody. With 6 WH, this is extremely rare :) We were for all intents and purposes disconnected from the rest of New Eden. A repeat of the experiment had people turn up less than 5 hours in, HOWEVER a scan after that showed that a K162 had opened in our system which was where these visitors came through. In the interrogation of these visitors after we'd bubbled & destroyed their ships and ransommed their pods they confirmed this. We then closed their k162 and peace returned.
By comparison, given the number of WHs in our system if we warp to each WH after scanning it (to bookmark) opening the other side, we usually see people within the hour. Since statistically at least one of our kspace connections is always near a busy hub of some sort, this is the norm.
Since discovering this, we've begun collapsing and not opening the kspace new WHs every second day allowing us to exploit our Wspace connections & sites within our system without interruption. Nothing has happened to change our theory, everyone we encounter on these days either comes from a newly spawned entrance to our system or from deeper in wspace, and indeed all so far have confirmed as much before being allowed to leave in their pods.
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2009.11.24 11:34:00 -
[21]
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 24/11/2009 11:34:47
6 static wormholes , are you nuts ?
Except for that i concure with everything you said , thats why i find your post odd.
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Tameris Khan
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Posted - 2009.11.24 11:46:00 -
[22]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
6 static wormholes , are you nuts ?
What's odd about that?
We're here for the pew pew, we do combats & mining only to replace ships. We initially setup in another WH that had 3 statics, 1 to nullsec, 2 to Wspace, but we got blobbed to death by alliance members waay too often. Our current home is a perfect balance. Roaming highsec gankbears that're our typical foe are comical & drop good loot.
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Haram Haram
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Posted - 2009.11.24 14:45:00 -
[23]
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 24/11/2009 11:34:47
6 static wormholes , are you nuts ?
Except for that i concure with everything you said , thats why i find your post odd.
It is odd because he contradicts himself stating that after they collapsed all the wh's they were cut off from new eden. If the wh's are static, you get a new one as soon as you collapsed the old one. 6 static WH's means 6 always present, which is absolutely bs. I think he is confusing k162's with "native" exits.(i.e. any non k162)
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Hoodat Bee
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Posted - 2009.11.24 14:59:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Haram Haram
Originally by: JitaPriceChecker2
Edited by: JitaPriceChecker2 on 24/11/2009 11:34:47
6 static wormholes , are you nuts ?
Except for that i concure with everything you said , thats why i find your post odd.
It is odd because he contradicts himself stating that after they collapsed all the wh's they were cut off from new eden. If the wh's are static, you get a new one as soon as you collapsed the old one. 6 static WH's means 6 always present, which is absolutely bs. I think he is confusing k162's with "native" exits.(i.e. any non k162)
Wrong. He says Quote:
To test this theory, my corp and I collapsed all our WHs. We then scanned but did not warp to any of our WHs.
Note the difference between what you think, and what was said.
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Tameris Khan
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Posted - 2009.11.24 15:08:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Haram Haram
It is odd because he contradicts himself stating that after they collapsed all the wh's they were cut off from new eden. If the wh's are static, you get a new one as soon as you collapsed the old one. 6 static WH's means 6 always present, which is absolutely bs. I think he is confusing k162's with "native" exits.(i.e. any non k162)
Learn to read.
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Dandy Lyon
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Posted - 2009.11.24 15:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Nishachara
I live in wh space for very long now...and i believe K162 isnt spawned right away after entry point wh is spawned...
The thing is...
We have a habit of writing exact time and date when some wh or other sig is scanned and so i stayed clocked in front of wh many times now waiting for it to despawn (or other times collapsed it) and than scanned other wh within minutes from its spawning...
And there are sometimes pretty big inconsistencies (more than an hour/even two) in the exact hour of spawning and despawning of, for example, hs wh(the type of hs wh whitch should last for 24 hours(B274))
So...when you find a fresh new just spawned wh on the description it says something like this:
"This wormhole has not yet begun its natural cycle...etc"
So if i am interested in which hs, for example, it leads and i jump through its the description changes in normal description of a young new wh...
But if i dont jump through it yet..."has not begun natural cycle .."part will stay for a few minutes..maybe an hour...
so..i think when wh is in this "natural cycle not begun yet " status K162 isnt formed yet on the other side, but if you jump through it..it will form...
...and also it will form on its own after some time if left unused...
That is what i believe based on observations of wh-s...
Also..if not formed right away i am 100% sure that K162 spawns at the other end of yet unused wh coz we had "guests" in wh a few times which came through hs wh that no one of us used after it spawned...
I have to believe this is the case too.
As was said earlier, if you're the first one in your wspace after down time, you get a message saying it hasn't loaded yet. I live in a class 2 with a static to low sec, and a static to another class 2. There are many times that I don't get that message when I log on late in the day. I know I'm the only one from my corp that has been there. There is no other way for somebody else to come into my hole (I love saying that) except through a k162.
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Gavin DeVries
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Posted - 2009.11.24 15:52:00 -
[27]
Except for the possibility that a wormhole can open into your system from someplace else. I also live in a C2 with low-sec and C2 static holes in it. The past two days we've had R943 holes from hi-sec leading into ours. We have, in the past, has entries from Class 1, 3, and 4 systems leading into ours in addition to our usual two static exits.
______________________________________________________
Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? |
Dandy Lyon
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Posted - 2009.11.24 16:30:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Dandy Lyon on 24/11/2009 16:31:36
Originally by: Gavin DeVries
Except for the possibility that a wormhole can open into your system from someplace else. I also live in a C2 with low-sec and C2 static holes in it. The past two days we've had R943 holes from hi-sec leading into ours. We have, in the past, has entries from Class 1, 3, and 4 systems leading into ours in addition to our usual two static exits.
Of course that can happen, but I only have a k162 in my system once or twice a week. I suppose I could get a k162, and have somebody close that wh before I get online so that I'd never see it, but that's not likely to happen very often.
When I'm not the first person in my wspace, I almost always find an active corp in my static class 2. They obviously are scanning down the k162 on their side to see what's in my space. It happens way too often to assume somebody is closing a non-static before I see it.
BTW, is any body else noticing it's hard to find an unused class 2 anymore? I haven't kept records, but it appears that about 75% of them are occupied or completely empty of sites now. Some corps must be very efficient to clean one out in the 24 or less hours that they are attached to them.
(edit for clairity)
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Forgo
Gallente
Cartographers Union
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Posted - 2009.11.24 16:39:00 -
[29]
I so far havn't seen the proof that K162 exists at any time before the hole is found on the other end.
And here is why I am fairly sure it does not...
As most dwellers notice from time to time, if you are the 1st one to load the system the boot log-in screen will tell you it is unavailable...that is, no-one has visited it since downtime. A moment later, relog in and all is golden in your personal space.
The same has happened to me upon finding holes to whs designated with anything other than K162.
That is you get to say a C247 hole and noone is in there since servers booted, you will be told an error upon trying to jump the 1st time. (which is the same thing, noone is there to have loaded it) wait a moment and jump again and its your own personal space. (until someone logs or jumps in there with you)
So based on that I would say no, they cannot be created before they are found from the other end. And until I see a k162 hole tell me it needs to load I'll stick to that. :)
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Sader Rykane
Amarr
Midnight Sentinels
Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.11.24 19:46:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Tameris Khan
I live in a WH with 6 static exits 4 of which are to highsec Kspace. I believe that the k162 is only spawned after warping onto grid with its origin.
This is the same mechanic that starts the 3 day count down for site expiry.
To test this theory, my corp and I collapsed all our WHs. We then scanned but did not warp to any of our WHs. For the following 24 hours several of us checked dir scanner & combat probes set to 64au and we saw absolutely nobody. With 6 WH, this is extremely rare :) We were for all intents and purposes disconnected from the rest of New Eden. A repeat of the experiment had people turn up less than 5 hours in, HOWEVER a scan after that showed that a K162 had opened in our system which was where these visitors came through. In the interrogation of these visitors after we'd bubbled & destroyed their ships and ransommed their pods they confirmed this. We then closed their k162 and peace returned.
By comparison, given the number of WHs in our system if we warp to each WH after scanning it (to bookmark) opening the other side, we usually see people within the hour. Since statistically at least one of our kspace connections is always near a busy hub of some sort, this is the norm.
Since discovering this, we've begun collapsing and not opening the kspace new WHs every second day allowing us to exploit our Wspace connections & sites within our system without interruption. Nothing has happened to change our theory, everyone we encounter on these days either comes from a newly spawned entrance to our system or from deeper in wspace, and indeed all so far have confirmed as much before being allowed to leave in their pods.
Assuming this is true, then you've just made our new home wormhole the safest wormhole in the game.
I'll test out this theory for myself to see whether its true.
Sig Gallery is currently down: Contact me ingame for prices.
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