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Sader Rykane
Amarr Midnight Sentinels Midnight Space Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.11.26 07:31:00 -
[1]
Can someone point me in the direction of some lore / story reason behind not being able to have two active instances of yourself running around?
I'm sure there's gotta be some technobabble reason for it.
Sig Gallery is currently down: Contact me ingame for prices.
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Myrhial Arkenath
Ghost Festival Naraka.
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Posted - 2009.11.26 12:36:00 -
[2]
I came across this news article while compiling news archives for Evelopedia.
Having two versions of yourself active at the same time is possible as the article proves, but illegal by CONCORD regulations:
Quote: ... a crime of the highest magnitude which goes against almost every law conceived regarding the cloning technology.
Aside from the legal trouble this brings there's also the psychological shock for both clones would they run into each other.
CEO | Diary of a pod pilot |
Davin Forsosa
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.11.26 21:26:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath I came across this news article while compiling news archives for Evelopedia.
Having two versions of yourself active at the same time is possible as the article proves, but illegal by CONCORD regulations:
Quote: ... a crime of the highest magnitude which goes against almost every law conceived regarding the cloning technology.
Aside from the legal trouble this brings there's also the psychological shock for both clones would they run into each other.
I'm having a tricky time comprehending this. Since it transfers our mind into clones, wouldn't we "feel" as if we're in 2 places at once?
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Stitcher
Caldari ForgeTech Industries
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Posted - 2009.11.26 22:17:00 -
[4]
no, because the mind is a function of the brain, not some FTL construct that stretches across the distance between and occupies both.
each clone would contain a copy of the same mind, not part of one hive mind.
- Verin "Stitcher" Hakatain. |
Odilon Raennere
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Posted - 2009.11.27 17:09:00 -
[5]
As far as I know, there isn't any reason in the canon why one couldn't theoretically transfer their mind into more than one clone simultaneously. There are certainly legal and ethical reasons why not, and CONCORD would regard such actions as grossly criminal behavior as evidenced by the news article linked above.
Clone resurrection involves a complete scan of the brain state at a single instant in time (destroying the source brain in the process) and the scan is sent as data to the destination clone body for recreation of that brain state. Data can be copied and stored and more than one clone easily created, so... it's definitely possible. The Broker character in Empyrean Age probably used this option quite liberally.
It should be pointed out that the two (plus) copies of yourself would in fact be two separate individuals capable of making different choices even in regards to a shared situation. One could even object to the act of creating multiple copies, especially if that clone was created from stored brain state data predating the formation of the character's motivation for making the clones. Also complicating the matter, how do you punish someone who uses cloning tech to create two or more copies of him/herself? Since the source brain is destroyed in order to make the clones, are both resulting individuals equally responsible for the crime? Do you execute one in order to restore order or do both have the equal rights normally accorded to an individual?
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Alexeph Stoekai
Stoekai Corp
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Posted - 2009.11.29 12:30:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Odilon Raennere stuff
You seem to be forgetting jump clones.
Technically, it is perfectly possible to have your mind "jumped" to a clone and have both yourself and the doppelgSnger active. However, strict CONCORD regulations mean that any cloning company that would facilitate such an open transfer would immediately be shut down, have their assets seized and all its directors dragged to court.
These legal ramifications mean that a person performing a clone jump is put in a vegetative state until the mind in the clone decides to transfer back (I say "mind in the clone" because strictly speaking there is no continuity of self in cloning and mind transfer, there is only an exact copy that acts like the original and makes the exact same decisions as the original would) in order to only have one legal entity walking around at any one time. Also, I believe the vegetative state facilitates the re-melding of the minds once the clone jumps back - as the original has not been out experiencing anything else there is no fear of "overwriting" experiences when the new brain scan is burned into the original mind. -----
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Yuron
Gallente Core Ascension
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Posted - 2009.11.29 17:56:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Yuron on 29/11/2009 17:58:25
Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath there's also the psychological shock for both clones would they run into each other.
But it should also be noted that psychological shock isn't a given.
If the clones were both aware of the process and all okay with it, there's no reason why 2 identical clones will definitely suffer from a trauma just because they meet. It all depends on the person being cloned and the circumstances surrounding it. į - Signed,
Ixokuenrhaous Yuron'Mlasi, Seventh Incarnation Intaki Reborn |
Odilon Raennere
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Posted - 2009.11.30 00:41:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Alexeph Stoekai You seem to be forgetting jump clones.
I suppose so, but I don't think it makes a difference. Do you?
Jump cloning is simply an advanced form of the technology used for clone resurrection that, as you point out, leaves the source brain and body intact in order that they be "occupied" again in the future. It's a "copy and paste" operation as opposed to the "cut and paste" of resurrection. The only legal use of this technology is how you describe and how we as capsuleers use it -- a single "instance" of the individual is active at one time regardless of how many available clones one has. Creating two active individuals with jump clone technology would be just as possible and just as illegal under CONCORD law as doing so with clone resurrection tech.
This old chronicle touches on the issue.
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Marine HK4861
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.12.04 00:07:00 -
[9]
Given that having multiple active copies of yourself is illegal by Concord (and hence empire factions) rulings, since they can't or won't enforce their rules on 0.0 inhabitants, it seems to be that the practice would be rife out there.
Congratulations, you've found a RP reason for all those alliance alts.
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Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari Fyretracker Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2009.12.04 06:32:00 -
[10]
take it two clones cant cause a paradox like if Mcfly where to meet himself on stage in 1955 in BTTF2?
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Marine HK4861
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.12.05 19:04:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker take it two clones cant cause a paradox like if Mcfly where to meet himself on stage in 1955 in BTTF2?
No more than a pair of identical twins meeting each other in real life.
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Tharanon
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Posted - 2009.12.09 15:09:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Tharanon on 09/12/2009 15:10:10 Many of you mentioned that double cloning is illegal by Concord. My question now is - why is it not possible in 0.0 space, where there is no Concord around? Furthermore, there are more than just this one thing illegal and they still exist (lets take Exotic Dancers as an example - they are only legal in the least places).
Another thing which was mentioned was that the "psychological shock" would be too big if they would run into each other. Well it wouldn't be much of a psychologic shock. It would (so I would think) more be like seeing your own twin (if you have one of course).
Another one mentioned that the mind is a function of the brain. Yes - that's 100% correct. Yet a clone is simply a 100% true copy of someone's body. Therefore even though he has the exam same body coding, it is an individual and can act on its own (as we have seen clones in the real world - many plants clone through asexual reproduction and even some experiments with cows and sheep have revealed that cloning does not link the mind of an organism).
So if you ask me (and I'm sorry to say this). All three of those "reasons" don't seem to be very convincing.
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Kharamete
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Posted - 2009.12.10 21:25:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Sader Rykane Can someone point me in the direction of some lore / story reason behind not being able to have two active instances of yourself running around?
I'm sure there's gotta be some technobabble reason for it.
I just think it's CCPs answer to whether there is such a thing as a soul or not :P
There is, of course, no reason not to have two concurrent clones running around.
It wouldn't be the same persons though. Just as every time your clone dies, you do die. There's just a backup (another person) that gets reactivated and carries on.
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Aloriana Jacques
Amarr Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2009.12.11 15:19:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Tharanon Another thing which was mentioned was that the "psychological shock" would be too big if they would run into each other. Well it wouldn't be much of a psychologic shock. It would (so I would think) more be like seeing your own twin (if you have one of course).
I think there would be a much deeper meaning to it than just "he looks like me"/"he's me". Once of the underlying tones to cloning was the idea that you do have to die to get cloned, so what happens to the soul? For the Amarr, they seem to believe that the soul is tainted or destroyed. They believe this so much that it is forbidden for any of the royal family to be cloned, less it taint them, their families, and all that come after them.
Imagine their reaction to someone who's cloned multiple times at once. Or imagine the actual psychological shock that would ensue, not because there's another copy of you, but what that means. If a person has a soul, what happened to it? Was it duplicated? Was it ripped in half? Is one copy just an empty, soulless shell?
Aside from the soul issue, there's the overt psych concerns. Imagine you died, were cloned, and just went about your life. What if, simultaneously at another station, a second clone was activated by error and just went about its life as well. Now there's two of you, and you'd never know it until you meet with each other. Let's say 5 years passes before you collide with each other. What would the implications be? Would you be questioning which one of you is the "real" you? Would you judge the other on their choices and actions they've made? How would you look on the other if their views, tastes, or beliefs changed while yours did not?
There's actually quite a bit that can be done on the theme. - - - Aloriana Jacques - Skill Sheet
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Esiel
Renegade Serenity
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Posted - 2009.12.12 08:07:00 -
[15]
Actually there is one known entity that does have multiple clones floating around. The Broker has found a way to do it but is now experiencing problems where soon he won't be able to clone at all (the new clones keep failing faster and faster). I would extrapolate that perhaps trying to copy the clone into multiple sources can cause physiological as well as physical problems.
...
Beat the dead horse |
Marine HK4861
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.12.12 09:28:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Esiel I would extrapolate that perhaps trying to copy the clone into multiple sources can cause physiological as well as physical problems.
Possibly the old photocopy of a photocopy problem with decreasing accuracy of mapping the neural pathways of the brain.
Biological systems do suffer from random spontaneous 'malfunctions', so even if the recording and burning system is 100% accurate, if the source material gets 'corrupted' or suffers from wear and tear, you're still screwed.
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Marine HK4861
Caldari State Protectorate
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Posted - 2009.12.12 09:42:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tharanon
Another one mentioned that the mind is a function of the brain. Yes - that's 100% correct. Yet a clone is simply a 100% true copy of someone's body. Therefore even though he has the exam same body coding, it is an individual and can act on its own (as we have seen clones in the real world - many plants clone through asexual reproduction and even some experiments with cows and sheep have revealed that cloning does not link the mind of an organism).
While all perfectly correct, EVE clones aren't actual clones in that sense.
According to the background articles, they're biomass 'blank' bodies from which the DNA from the host is inserted. There's some plastic surgery to make the blank body look like the host, then all that's left to make the clone be you is the implantation of the neural pathways into the clone's blank brain (which is probably some sort of artificial biomass as they can't use the original donor's neural material).
It has to be done this way in order to keep up with demand - unless you can quick grow a full adult body from the single cell stage in a few hours, you'd never be able to keep up with pod pilot requirements, especially if they're involved in fleet fights.
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Evet Morrel
Du'uma Fiisi Integrated Astrometrics The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.12.14 11:40:00 -
[18]
If your looking for plausible, tentatively rational technobabble, how about the nature of the invasive scan:-
1. we know that the scan technique is fatal, 2. we might also say that the process, involves entanglement, a quantum non-local connection such that the wave is only collapsed upon observation:
"constituting objects are linked together so that one object can no longer be adequately described without full mention of its counterpartłeven if the individual objects are spatially separated in a spacelike manner." [...] "Quantum entanglement is at the heart of the EPR paradox developed by Albert Einstein, Boris Podolsky, and Nathan Rosen in 1935. This interconnection leads to non-classical correlations between observable physical properties of remote systems, often referred to as nonlocal correlations. Quantum mechanics holds that observables, for example spin, are indeterminate until some physical intervention is made to measure an observable of the object in question." wikipedia
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The Wicked1
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Posted - 2009.12.14 11:55:00 -
[19]
Edited by: The Wicked1 on 14/12/2009 11:55:59 Edited by: The Wicked1 on 14/12/2009 11:55:19
Originally by: Stitcher no, because the mind is a function of the brain, not some FTL construct that stretches across the distance between and occupies both.
each clone would contain a copy of the same mind, not part of one hive mind.
Doesn't that then mean that once you die you are dead for good. The clone is mearly that, a clone of your self? A copy? So Eggers can't live forever?
It's like the teleporters in Star trek and other kinds of SciFi braking you up and moving your atoms and then reconstructing you else where has always creeped me out since I get the feeling that when you are reanimated you aren't YOU but a copy, even though its the same atoms that created you.... now if that makes any sense
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2009.12.14 23:07:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Esiel Actually there is one known entity that does have multiple clones floating around. The Broker has found a way to do it but is now experiencing problems where soon he won't be able to clone at all (the new clones keep failing faster and faster). I would extrapolate that perhaps trying to copy the clone into multiple sources can cause physiological as well as physical problems.
Don't forget Sansha.
Oh wait... you guys haven't found out about that yet.
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Firkragg
Blue Labs Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.12.14 23:12:00 -
[21]
If you read the empyrean age book the character called "the broker" runs around in multiple bodies.
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Trabber Shir
Caldari 5I Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.12.14 23:23:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Firkragg If you read the empyrean age book the character called "the broker" runs around in multiple bodies.
Actually, no. The broker never appears in 2 locations at the same time. He just clone jumps into bodies with a different identity.
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Aerilis
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Posted - 2009.12.16 17:59:00 -
[23]
Your actual current physical existence isn't what makes you "you". It's your thought patterns and perception, which in turn is dictated by the locations and formations of atoms, electrons, etc in your brain.
When you get podded, your original self is for all intent and purposes dead. What happens is that a clone is brought to the exact same atomic and neural composition of your old body at the time of death, so it feels as if you've "jumped".
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KaiserSoze434
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Posted - 2009.12.16 20:30:00 -
[24]
The CONCORD rationale doesn't fly for reasons stated. People would be doing the procedure out in 0.0. Perhaps a good RP excuse would be that the psychological techniques have not been devised as of yet. It takes a skill to be able to survive a clone jump, perhaps a different kind of training would be needed for a splitting operation and it hasn't been fully researched. There is also the possibility that the technology isn't advanced enough. We have it far enough along to do a single channel direct transmission, but real time splitting/copying of the signal introduces some kind of signal degradation or error into the process. One could even go so far as to speculate that cumulative errors of that type might be partly responsible for the Jovian disease. If so it might be possible although never practice due to insane risks. It might even be likely that the Jovians made it clear to the empires when they gave them advanced technologies that any use along those lines would result in punitive military action. There might also be inherent psychological barriers that are insurmountable. The second there are two "you"s their personalities would begin to diverge based on separate experience. Both of you would start in the same exact state but cumulative separate experiences would lead to widening gaps in understanding and perspective. Eventually the other clone would seem like a similar, but totally different person. A different person that has access to most of your secrets and resources. Conflict would be inevitable with the death of one of the clones being the probable solution. So maybe no one does multi-cloning because its been proven ultimately futile.
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Odilon Raennere
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Posted - 2009.12.18 17:38:00 -
[25]
Originally by: The Wicked1 Doesn't that then mean that once you die you are dead for good. The clone is mearly that, a clone of your self? A copy? So Eggers can't live forever?
Based on the descriptions of New Eden's cloning and resurrection tech, this is correct. Pod death and reanimation is actually the complete death of your original self and the creation of an exact copy. There really should be no continuity of consciousness between the dead original and the newly "awakened" one, although it tends to be described as if there were. Of course for the newly made clone and everyone else concerned, there is the illusion of continuity. The original is still dead as a door nail -- unless you've got some spiritual mumbo jumbo to tie up the loose end. The metaphysical questions about identity (the soul?) that are raised are probably why most Amarr are still so uneasy with the whole idea of cloning themselves.
Do all clones go to Heaven?
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Dairend
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Posted - 2009.12.20 19:45:00 -
[26]
About the Broker situation. I read the book. The original Broker no longer exists. He is just a set of memories inside an automated computer that clones copies of him, wether just a copy or more, depending on the needs. Because the original DNA string from which the cloning process takes place everytime got corrupted over time, every clone that emerges suffers from a disease that kills the clone after a matter of time. The infection spreaded over time and the clones get lower and lower life expectancies. Every new clone, even though is just as the original Broker, knows that is just a clone with an expiration date and is loyal to the original memeory, thus doing it's best to complete the mission.
So the Broker is slowly dying. The only treatment that slows a clone's death is the administration of the drug Vitoc used by the Amarr to enslave minmatars. A cure was found for the minmatar slaves to rid off the vitoc addiction and the Broker thought it would also save him, but he failed to get it and apparently he will eventually day.
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