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Dear CCP: Did I just see super-capital ships using point defense guns?

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Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2009.11.28 03:06:00 - [1] There's a moment in the Dominion trailer, where a mothership appears to utilize short-range autocannons for point defense. I could be mistaken - it could be, say, a frig shooting, too far away to make out. But this is something I've always wanted to see in Eve. Supercapitals, and hell, even battleships - equipped with passive, AI controlled, autotargeting PD guns. Tiny ones, not too effective - just enough to say, annoy a HIC, or shoot down an interceptor if it loiters in close orbit for too long. Look at the armament of a WW2 battleship - a main battery of big guns, then a handful of medium guns, and about 50 machine guns scattered about the hull to aid against fighter-bombers. It'd be so badass, making a run toward a monstrous supercapital, and seeing twenty-odd flak batteries open up wildly in your direction. Make it happen, CCP, and I'll get you a few thousand more subscriptions.
Lt Shard Burning Technologies Circle-Of-Two	Posted - 2009.11.28 03:23:00 - [2] No it was incoming scrapheap fire. _________________________ Yes, I know the Titan is small in my sig.
Demon Azrakel Gallente Task Force Zener Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.28 03:28:00 - [3] /supported...because seriously, most ships or spaceships have many different sizes of guns... although they would have to massively redo hitpoints and such...and better server hardware... could be noob ship guns, if i recall they don't use turret hardpoints... and in the end it leads to solo-pwn-mobiles sadly... oh, how about having a class that is to a bs what a bc is to a cruiser... (or what a hac is to a cruiser...i'm looking at you marauder...) or, while we are thinking wishfully, lets get an 8 gun capital boat w/ just 5% damage per level and not totally **** over tracking like dominion will... /me should probably get some sleep...cant remember what topic is
Khemul Zula Amarr Keisen Trade League	Posted - 2009.11.28 04:01:00 - [4] If they did implement something like that, or put it in for looks, then they did it as a fleet support system. Since the missiles were hitting the Pilgrim, not the Aeon (think it was an Aeon). Veal, murder. Baby Carrots, healthy snack. Food hypocrisy at work.
mechtech Entropy Industries	Posted - 2009.11.28 04:35:00 - [5] They won't do it because it will increase lag. Maybe CCP will consider it later, but for now every extra CPU cycle needs to be used to reduce module activation delay.
Avernus Gallente Imperium Technologies	Posted - 2009.11.28 04:56:00 - [6] Flak cannons are win... this is known.
Breaker77 Gallente Reclamation Industries	Posted - 2009.11.28 05:14:00 - [7] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu There's a moment in the Dominion trailer, where a mothership appears to utilize short-range autocannons for point defense. I could be mistaken - it could be, say, a frig shooting, too far away to make out. You don't use small guns on your MS?? Noob
DigitalCommunist November Corporation	Posted - 2009.11.28 05:17:00 - [8] You wouldn't have to do anything to motherships or guns per se, just modify the turret animation/physics to visibly miss. Same visual goodness, none of the gameplay breaking cheese. ps: ohi
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.11.28 05:29:00 - [9] no, because that would make way too much sense to come out of ccp. also something about "roles" and/or "game balance"
Rhanna Khurin Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.11.28 05:31:00 - [10] I always thought that "flak guns" could be used for an anti-missile defence. Something that chews through ammunition like crazy and isnt always totally effective. (like those automated chain guns fitted to navy ships in present day.)

Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.11.28 06:13:00 - [11] Would be even more awesome if you could target those point defence guns and incap them so that they first need to be repaired before they can be used again. drool
Narcil Starwind Exa Utopia	Posted - 2009.11.28 06:21:00 - [12] Actually I think flac cannon module could be less cpu intensive than smart bombs currently are. They could track up to a certain number of targets at once, say 10 or so. Then damage calculations only need to be calculated for some random 10 targets in range rather than every target within range. Have the damage and range be equivalent, and replace smart bombs all together. Should reduce some lag in situations where caps are clustered and fighting off a swarm of drones/fighters.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. United Corporate Ventures	Posted - 2009.11.28 06:22:00 - [13] Originally by: Rhanna Khurin I always thought that "flak guns" could be used for an anti-missile defence. Something that chews through ammunition like crazy and isnt always totally effective. (like those automated chain guns fitted to navy ships in present day.) 1st part I agree. 2nd part - have you ever seen a Phalanx in action? They can hit a fairly small-sized shell (the exact size is classified), let alone a missile. And the number of rounds they can fire per second is ridiculous. So you should probably change that sentence to "almost always totally effective." Of course nothing in Eve comes close to the RoF of a Phalanx, or it's potential DPS. Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari F'nog for Amarr Emperor. Nuff said
NyteTyger Gallente NiteSun Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.28 06:43:00 - [14] Originally by: Narcil Starwind Actually I think flac cannon module could be less cpu intensive than smart bombs currently are. They could track up to a certain number of targets at once, say 10 or so. Then damage calculations only need to be calculated for some random 10 targets in range rather than every target within range. Have the damage and range be equivalent, and replace smart bombs all together. Should reduce some lag in situations where caps are clustered and fighting off a swarm of drones/fighters. Oh, I kinda like this idea. I don't think smart bombs should be replaced, but a Point Defense module would be awesome. Takes up a high slot, has high tracking, low damage, short optimal with a short falloff. Just enough to be a concern over time for a close orbiting frig hull, potentially very deadly to drones. Single non-selectable target, switched every 60 seconds. So, if you're willing to sacrifice a high slot, you'll have a frig deterrent, or drone defense. But one that can be overwhelmed by putting a large number of targets in range. So, a solo inty isn't going to keep a BS with CIWS locked down indefinitely, but it's not going to be neutralized quickly. In a well organized gang that has drones on the inty, the inty is effectively tanked by the drones. Not game breaking, but allows some flexibility. Although, you would have an issue with intys loaded with CIWS being close to immune to drones. Maybe make them CPU/PG heavy so they can only be fitted on BS and up? __________________________________________ It's a do or die universe, so you better damn well choose between one or the other.
Landrassa Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company	Posted - 2009.11.28 06:57:00 - [15] Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Rhanna Khurin I always thought that "flak guns" could be used for an anti-missile defence. Something that chews through ammunition like crazy and isnt always totally effective. (like those automated chain guns fitted to navy ships in present day.) 1st part I agree. 2nd part - have you ever seen a Phalanx in action? They can hit a fairly small-sized shell (the exact size is classified), let alone a missile. And the number of rounds they can fire per second is ridiculous. So you should probably change that sentence to "almost always totally effective." Of course nothing in Eve comes close to the RoF of a Phalanx, or it's potential DPS. As amazing as the Phalanx is in our universe, just imagine what happens when it fires on something that is carrying 1.6 meters of rolled tungsten armor plating...lots and lots of pretty sparks, but not quite the same dps as, say, shells the size of volkswagen beetles being lobbed at you. Now if you were to suggest replacing defender missiles with the equivalent of Phalanxes... --------------------------------------------------- Recruitment thread
NyteTyger Gallente NiteSun Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.28 07:15:00 - [16] Originally by: Landrassa Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Rhanna Khurin I always thought that "flak guns" could be used for an anti-missile defence. Something that chews through ammunition like crazy and isnt always totally effective. (like those automated chain guns fitted to navy ships in present day.) 1st part I agree. 2nd part - have you ever seen a Phalanx in action? They can hit a fairly small-sized shell (the exact size is classified), let alone a missile. And the number of rounds they can fire per second is ridiculous. So you should probably change that sentence to "almost always totally effective." Of course nothing in Eve comes close to the RoF of a Phalanx, or it's potential DPS. As amazing as the Phalanx is in our universe, just imagine what happens when it fires on something that is carrying 1.6 meters of rolled tungsten armor plating...lots and lots of pretty sparks, but not quite the same dps as, say, shells the size of volkswagen beetles being lobbed at you. Now if you were to suggest replacing defender missiles with the equivalent of Phalanxes... You're forgetting the cardinal rule - RoF > Damage Modifier. '[The Phalanx] fires 20mm ammunition at either 3,000 or 4,500 rounds-per-minute...' (source: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-15.htm). This means while your little cruiser with tons of armor is puttering in towards the battle group, it is getting the same treatment a log gets from a chainsaw. Armor = slow = more 'time on target' = you really shouldn't have tried that **** with CIWS __________________________________________ It's a do or die universe, so you better damn well choose between one or the other.
Omar Kuvakei Minmatar	Posted - 2009.11.28 07:57:00 - [17] I've always figured a CIWS style weapon system would provide a great role tweak for the Destroyer class of ships - they're already fairly suited to the anti-Frigate/Drone role. Something that goes a little further though, perhaps an AoE (think smart bomb but bigger range, different role) combining the (only intended, not realized?) functionality of the Defender Missile in knocking out Missiles, while moderately bleeding out Drones/Fighters of their HP whenever they stray into range too. Maybe hitting Frigates as well, though not as effectively as regular small turrets would do. I'd prefer a second Tech II Destroyer to fill the role, mostly for some extra HP/functionality. Not that much of this discussion is new, I'm sure I've seen it raised several times over the years, to no avail. Still, it is nice to dream.
Salmeria GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.11.28 08:13:00 - [18] I think that a point defense battery module would be pretty awesome. It would be a racial weapon which would randomly target a hostile ship within 20KM of the capital ship and fire at it a few times. Then it would randomly switch to a new target, with a higher priority towards tacklers and ECM.
hired goon	Posted - 2009.11.28 11:38:00 - [19] Originally by: DigitalCommunist You wouldn't have to do anything to motherships or guns per se, just modify the turret animation/physics to visibly miss. Same visual goodness, none of the gameplay breaking cheese. -omg-
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei	Posted - 2009.11.28 11:42:00 - [20] A point defense would be a nice addition. It could be implemented, as mentioned before by a kind of rapid firing fast tracking weapon, but with very low damage so that it is really only a Threat to Frigates and Drones, but also fast enough tracking to be a concern for a lone Inty trying to tackle a Capital Ship. The Module could only controlled indirectly by assigning target priorities and will also switch targets after a certain amount of time. While the Module would only hit a single target at a time, for graphic goodness a large number of small firing turrets could be displayed, but only for show, while actually just a single target is receiving damage. Quote: Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done

arbiter reformed Minmatar Shut Up And Play WE FORM VOLTRON	Posted - 2009.11.28 11:46:00 - [21] jesus he actually logged in Signature graphics that may only contain your character name, corporation logo, corporation or personal slogan or other text that is directly related to your in-game persona, or content directly related to Eve Online. All content must be in good taste.Applebabe
NyteTyger Gallente NiteSun Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.28 11:49:00 - [22] Originally by: arbiter reformed jesus he actually logged in WHERE?! I've got a whole church who have been waiting for, like, 2000 years! __________________________________________ It's a do or die universe, so you better damn well choose between one or the other.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.11.28 12:27:00 - [23] Nothing has ever prevented you from fitting small turrets on your battleship to act as flak guns. Long time ago I did that a lot and it worked rather well. Of course, what people really want is for bigger ships to be totally pwn-mobiles able to equally dispatch large and small ships. It could be nice though if bonus to a certain weapon type like large energy turrets would provide 50% of the same bonus to smaller versions of that type (medium and small energy turrets). ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.28 12:47:00 - [24] 1. No, because that obsoletes smaller ship classes. Game balance > logic. 2. No, because it should be your job to defend yourself, not some automated AI. 3. No, because you should have a support fleet that does that job for you. 4. No, because you already can – just fit smaller guns and/or field smaller drones. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Andrest Disch Amarr Debitum Naturae	Posted - 2009.11.28 12:57:00 - [25] Sounds like smart bombs but with a different graphic. So, lets rename "smart bombs" to "flak cannons" and give them the graphic of firing loads of guns instead of a bomb.
Daedalus II	Posted - 2009.11.28 13:06:00 - [26] Originally by: Andrest Disch Sounds like smart bombs but with a different graphic. So, lets rename "smart bombs" to "flak cannons" and give them the graphic of firing loads of guns instead of a bomb. Yes exactly like that! If one wanted one could add a random element to it too, give a certain chance to actually not do any damage on a blast (miss). This would give missile ships at least some chance of getting a few of their missiles through, while the defence system is still quite potent against many enemies at once. Give it a 50% chance to miss, and increase the damage 50%. Same overall damage as todays smart bombs, but not as good against missiles.
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.11.28 13:21:00 - [27] Originally by: Andrest Disch Sounds like smart bombs but with a different graphic. So, lets rename "smart bombs" to "flak cannons" and give them the graphic of firing loads of guns instead of a bomb. This. Those modules will suddenly become a lot more popular.
Alexeph Stoekai Stoekai Corp	Posted - 2009.11.28 14:05:00 - [28] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Dear CCP: Did I just see super-capital ships using point defense guns? No, just wishful thinking. -----
Discrodia Gallente Experimental Horizons	Posted - 2009.11.28 14:14:00 - [29] Edited by: Discrodia on 28/11/2009 14:13:55 Originally by: Tamia Clant Originally by: Andrest Disch Sounds like smart bombs but with a different graphic. So, lets rename "smart bombs" to "flak cannons" and give them the graphic of firing loads of guns instead of a bomb. This. Those modules will suddenly become a lot more popular. Give them a small damage boost, a 50% miss chance for each target in range, and ability to hit missiles and you're good. Edit: Typo I will provide a rebuttal as soon as Scotty, the posting manager allows.
Lindsay Logan	Posted - 2009.11.28 14:18:00 - [30] Originally by: Avernus Flak cannons are win... this is known. Flak cannons are old and outdated technology.

Kazang Gallente Wrecking Shots	Posted - 2009.11.28 15:14:00 - [31] This would be cool but doesn't really fit with the combat system in eve. I would love something along the lines of the weapon system control you have in the capital ships in the X-Series of games. In the X games the largest ships have huge numbers of gun batteries and its not possible to control them all manually and you basically set parameters for the AI to control them. You control the main weapon systems yourself and targets yourself but you leave the micromanagement of the smaller weapon systems to the AI. In those games though a left side gun battery cannot fire at stuff on the other flank so the AI just shoots at any targets of opportunity. Which is somewhat different to eve. It would be cool but would change things a little too much and i think ccp stated them selves recently that supercarriers/carriers would never be getting any turrets. They were of course referring to actual turret hardpoints but same principle applies really. Kazang
Deviana Sevidon Gallente Panta-Rhei	Posted - 2009.11.28 16:05:00 - [32] Originally by: Tippia 1. No, because that obsoletes smaller ship classes. Game balance > logic. 2. No, because it should be your job to defend yourself, not some automated AI. 3. No, because you should have a support fleet that does that job for you. 4. No, because you already can û just fit smaller guns and/or field smaller drones. This gentlemen, is the primary reason why IT will fail. 1: Please read again. The idea of Flak turrets is either that of Flak turrets are more of a graphic addition that also adds some extra defense to make it worthwile to fit. Not an instapwn module. 2: Tell that do my drones, they already have some crappy AI and will attack and are able to attack on their own, even when I do not give them orders. Of course you play with auto-repeat off on all your turrets, right? 3: The idea does not make a support fleet obsolete and is certainly better balanced then an Officer type smartbomb on a Titan. 4: The last time I looked I looked Carrier and Motherships did not have any Turret Slots. Also I would still be able to use small drones. Again, the point defense just as an extra module/ build in system that might be able to scare away a few Frigates can hardly be called imbalanced, especially not in the current age of huge support fleets and heavy interdictors. Quote: Disclaimer: All mentioned above contains my opinion and is therefore an absolute truth (for me anyway, my universe, muhahaha.....ok, done
Rexthor Hammerfists Rage of Inferno Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.11.28 16:15:00 - [33] Id be happy if i could glue mirrors on my caps against all those revs. -
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.28 16:32:00 - [34] Originally by: Deviana Sevidon 1: Please read again. The idea of Flak turrets is either that of Flak turrets are more of a graphic addition that also adds some extra defense to make it worthwile to fit. Not an instapwn module. Then it won't be fitted – there are far better uses for those slots. Quote: 2: Tell that do my drones, they already have some crappy AI and will attack and are able to attack on their own, even when I do not give them orders. You're still controlling them, though, and drones left to the whims of their AI are utterly useless as a defensive weapon. If that's the kind of usefulness you want to see in these point defence systems, then they won't ever be fitted, and their addition is a waste of time. Quote: 3: The idea does not make a support fleet obsolete and is certainly better balanced then an Officer type smartbomb on a Titan. If they are to be made useful, then they have to do that, or they won't be fitted. Also, how would it be "better balanced"? Quote: 4: The last time I looked I looked Carrier and Motherships did not have any Turret Slots. Also I would still be able to use small drones. Yes, like I said: you can already do this, so it's a pointless addition. Quote: Again, the point defense just as an extra module/ build in system that might be able to scare away a few Frigates can hardly be called imbalanced A few frigates may be the thing that gets you killed because you did the wrong choice in not having someone around to take them out. The whole point is that you should always have a weak spot that you can't build your way out of, no matter what you're in. Small ships is one of the inherent weak spots of larger ships. If you want to plug that hole, you already can, and it comes at the suitable cost of making large ships your new weak spot. You're free to pick you poision, but don't think you can get out of it without a tummy ache… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
slip66 Black Nova Corp IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.28 16:42:00 - [35] Edited by: slip66 on 28/11/2009 16:42:18 Originally by: Landrassa Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Rhanna Khurin I always thought that "flak guns" could be used for an anti-missile defence. Something that chews through ammunition like crazy and isnt always totally effective. (like those automated chain guns fitted to navy ships in present day.) 1st part I agree. 2nd part - have you ever seen a Phalanx in action? They can hit a fairly small-sized shell (the exact size is classified), let alone a missile. And the number of rounds they can fire per second is ridiculous. So you should probably change that sentence to "almost always totally effective." Of course nothing in Eve comes close to the RoF of a Phalanx, or it's potential DPS. As amazing as the Phalanx is in our universe, just imagine what happens when it fires on something that is carrying 1.6 meters of rolled tungsten armor plating...lots and lots of pretty sparks, but not quite the same dps as, say, shells the size of volkswagen beetles being lobbed at you. The CIWS fires tungsten rounds already... used to be Depleted Uranium . Still interesting to think how it would go. I used to be in charge of one of these. Pretty cool to see it fire from 30ft away. Edit: and no my dictor pilot wouldn't like seeing these in game :(
Nick Curso Black Nova Corp IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.28 16:46:00 - [36] Just make it do the same damage and have the same range as smart bombs and only allow it to be fit on a cap add cool effect..... Job done Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Lalai Dama	Posted - 2009.11.28 17:32:00 - [37] Well i think the best suggestion comes with gnulpie saying that it would be great if they would be targetable as well. If it all matter about lag than i can see only one direction, make it as a visual effect with nothing else to it. It would add a sense of drama and would be great for immersion i think. Cheers all
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2009.11.29 00:44:00 - [38] EvE needs Battlestars. I'd never play another game again if something like them was put in. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2009.11.29 00:57:00 - [39] anyone whos played x3tc knows what real flak is Now, since supposedly, CFA have been fixed... muhahhahaha OHGODS BELOW THIS LINE IS MY SIG !!!! SRSLY! Blane Xero > Lance is at -0.9 sec status with a 1 million bounty. Lance is also amarrian. Thats 3 evil points
Siddy Minmatar Evolution IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.29 01:32:00 - [40] smartbombs... that have a flak burst graphicks, lots of flak shot araund ship. machine gun firing streaks in the air. in other words, it looks like ton of flak is being spat out of PD holes, have the code of smartbomb and everybody will be happy. Code monkeys and artists Devs Servers and players. snd i will get a cookie Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint

Rhanna Khurin Minmatar Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.11.29 01:34:00 - [41] As has been mentioned before. Anti-missile flak guns fitted to a destroyer hull is the way forward!
Turiel Demon Minmatar Blue Republic	Posted - 2009.11.29 01:42:00 - [42] Smartbombs anyone? All they would have to do is make a different graphic, one that shoots little pewpews instead of a big wave, at all targets that it's supposed to hit.
xttz GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.11.29 02:11:00 - [43] Targetable supercapital sub-systems is where it's at. And you all know it.


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