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Elizabeth Mellon	Posted - 2009.11.28 12:25:00 - [31] Originally by: NyteTyger Originally by: Swiftgaze Originally by: NyteTyger Look at the real world equivalent. Every day, cops get a complaint about people selling meth on the corner. The cops can either bust the street level guy, or tail him and bust his supplier. Which does more to reduce the amount of meth available? Totally out of context. In our case, the bots make the ISK, not the sellers, whereas in your example someone cooks the drugs and has the "bots" sell them. No, not completely out of context. In terms of visibility and "reportability", it is right on target, which is why I used it. It's not the street level guy you see everyday that is going to have any effect on the underlying problem, it's the guy he works for that you're after. Originally by: Wesfahrn Originally by: NyteTyger Originally by: RY0GEN Edited by: RY0GEN on 28/11/2009 11:39:26 Edited by: RY0GEN on 28/11/2009 11:37:40 Originally by: NyteTyger Look at the real world equivalent. Every day, cops get a complaint about people selling meth on the corner. The cops can either bust the street level guy, or tail him and bust his supplier. Which does more to reduce the amount of meth available? To carry through, which does more to stop RMTers, busting the trial/new acct alt, or the 'banker'? You're not being ignored, you're just adding names to the list. Way to blow it out of proportion. we are taliking about a game not a nation wide epidemic of junkies... Originally by: Wesfahrn Legalize meth Heh, nice try, but I simply drew a parallel of techniques for illustration, and in no way implied an equivalent severity of said actions. And I agree, legalize meth. Legalize it all. Why should my tax dollars be spent to keep you from dying if you don't care either way? Hahaha, see its the classical example of the person who wants to interfere with my life. Why do you care about if im taking meth? Sorry if im botting the missions or belts. Um, maybe you should put down the pipe? I specifically said I don't care if you smoke meth. I don't give a flying **** what you do to yourself. If you want to spend your days floating in a chemical haze, then by all means, please, I beg you, do so. I'm a firm believer in Darwinism. Just in case you misunderstood again - I think it should all be legal. Every bit of it. Crack, X, ****, Opium, Meth, Powder, Toad Drippings, I don't care. If you want to, then you should absolutely be able to, as much as you want to. See, I'm one of those rare people now a days - I actually think you should be allowed to live your version of life, even if it means your death, as long as you don't ** with me in the process. My life is much like yours. A tragic tapestry embroided with sharp memories, recalled at the most inappropriate times. A brown and lifeless fabric, made interesting only by it's scars. The bottom of the bottle holds no secrets and soon the sun will set, leaving us both blind and dark.
Swiftgaze	Posted - 2009.11.28 12:28:00 - [32] Originally by: Zartanic Originally by: Swiftgaze The funny thing is that you actually believe that youre potentially supportive. Supportive of what? That meth thing? I don't give a toss about meth or any post here relating to it. You seem a little lost.
NyteTyger Gallente NiteSun Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.28 12:29:00 - [33] Originally by: Elizabeth Mellon My life is much like yours. A tragic tapestry embroided with sharp memories, recalled at the most inappropriate times. A brown and lifeless fabric, made interesting only by it's scars. The bottom of the bottle holds no secrets and soon the sun will set, leaving us both blind and dark. Well, you've succeeded in making me feel like a complete idiot, because I have to ask... WTF? __________________________________________ It's a do or die universe, so you better damn well choose between one or the other.
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2009.11.28 12:39:00 - [34] Originally by: Swiftgaze Originally by: Zartanic Originally by: Swiftgaze The funny thing is that you actually believe that youre potentially supportive. Supportive of what? That meth thing? I don't give a toss about meth or any post here relating to it. You seem a little lost. Supportive of what?
Elizabeth Mellon	Posted - 2009.11.28 12:39:00 - [35] Originally by: NyteTyger Originally by: Elizabeth Mellon My life is much like yours. A tragic tapestry embroided with sharp memories, recalled at the most inappropriate times. A brown and lifeless fabric, made interesting only by it's scars. The bottom of the bottle holds no secrets and soon the sun will set, leaving us both blind and dark. Well, you've succeeded in making me feel like a complete idiot, because I have to ask... WTF? :D It's a poem I wrote 10 minutes ago, I thought that if I said it to someone at a random time that it would confuse them to the point of them asking "WTF?" and I was right. Pride.
Wesfahrn	Posted - 2009.11.28 12:40:00 - [36] Edited by: Wesfahrn on 28/11/2009 12:44:41 Edited by: Wesfahrn on 28/11/2009 12:40:34 Originally by: NyteTyger Look at the real world equivalent. Every day, cops get a complaint about people selling meth on the corner. The cops can either bust the street level guy, or tail him and bust his supplier. Which does more to reduce the amount of meth available? I read this and thought you were in favor of the ban. To me, it seemed like you thought the ban was a good idea, so CCP could trace the botters and potentially do something harmfull to that buisness that has sprung up. Which is a buisness only sprung up because of the actions of CCP, the banning of botting. But im glad you and me share the same viewpoint on prohibition, which incidentally would be same the same when it comes to prohibition of botting in games? It dosent work, and delivers consequences far worse collectively to the game community.
NyteTyger Gallente NiteSun Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.28 12:41:00 - [37] Originally by: Elizabeth Mellon :D It's a poem I wrote 10 minutes ago, I thought that if I said it to someone at a random time that it would confuse them to the point of them asking "WTF?" and I was right. Pride. In that case, well played, sir, well played __________________________________________ It's a do or die universe, so you better damn well choose between one or the other.
NyteTyger Gallente NiteSun Enterprises	Posted - 2009.11.28 12:56:00 - [38] Originally by: Wesfahrn Edited by: Wesfahrn on 28/11/2009 12:40:34 Originally by: NyteTyger Look at the real world equivalent. Every day, cops get a complaint about people selling meth on the corner. The cops can either bust the street level guy, or tail him and bust his supplier. Which does more to reduce the amount of meth available? I read this and thought you were in favor of the ban. To me, it seemed like you thought the ban was a good idea, so CCP could trace the botters and potentially do something harmfull to that buisness that has sprung up. Which is a buisness only sprung up because of the actions of CCP, the banning of botting. But im glad you and me share the same viewpoint on prohibition, which incidentally would be same the same when it comes to prohibition of botting in games? It dosent work, and delivers consequences far worse consequences collectively to the game community. I see where there may be a potential for misunderstanding. Vaguely, but I can see it To clarify, I think that botting is not the problem, but the symptom. You'll never be able to remove botting as long as the game gives a time/reward benefit, and, let's face it, no such game exists. In my thoughts, the problem isn't the bots, it's their 'masters', the RMTers who profit from the bots activities while remaining in the background, so to speak. The level of botting we see today is a direct decedent of the RMT companies. However, if you were to completely to remove RMTers from the game, you'd still have bots, in my opinion. You'd see bots run by individual players on up to bot fleets run by large alliances. Those are already there, but people don't 'see' those, they see the 'lolfarmersweetkisses 1-4000'. I'm with you, prohibition is never the answer. CCPs answer to RMT is PLEX and GTC. In the equivalent real life Drug War (if you think it shouldn't be capitalized, you're not paying attention), CCPs approach is 'tax and regulate', compared to Prohibition. I strongly support the 'tax and regulate' approach. __________________________________________ It's a do or die universe, so you better damn well choose between one or the other.
Schrudcher	Posted - 2009.11.28 12:56:00 - [39] I think not the botters or even the RTM are the problem but the buyers are. If there is no profit to make any more they will stop at the end. thats my two cents
Stabby McKnife	Posted - 2009.11.28 12:56:00 - [40] As many others already have pointed out, CCP usually go for the big fish and not the guys selling ISK at the street corner. Also, isn't suiciding alts to spawn CONCORD considered an exploit? Regarding the part about legalizing botting: I have a hard time imagining that it would be illegal anywhere; however, botting does violate CCP's EULA, giving them the right to whatever they damn please with users caught doing it. Mining and other grinding is a part of the game for a reason: the enjoyment of the players who enjoy such activities. Automating that process robs those players of their opportunity to play the game they want. In short, if you want minerals, faction items, or salvage to be cheaper then grind for it yourself and stop whining, or GTFO...

Forranz Malice. Tentative Nature	Posted - 2009.11.28 13:01:00 - [41] Originally by: Stabby McKnife As many others already have pointed out, CCP usually go for the big fish and not the guys selling ISK at the street corner. Also, isn't suiciding alts to spawn CONCORD considered an exploit? Don't think it is. It would help if Concord would despawn after say 5 minutes.
Spurty Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.11.28 13:06:00 - [42] For the real life part, there are laws so society doesn't have to pay the healthcare bill as sadly it's not legal to shoot idiots that "experiment" without reading up on the fact it's a well understood result performing such actions. Darwin is the best we have, but it's slow, painful and expensive. As for the botters, keep reporting them, it's not in vain, just remember you might be wrong and CCP will have to invest Time and energy to be sure they aren't about to upset a valid customer. Unholy rage reduced load on the server but made implant costs go through the roof. Great for level 4 mission runners, not so cool for those that do not play that way Originally by: Machine Delta When making a point, anyone taking it should consider the source. pretty deep coming from you
Ay Liz Sacred Templars	Posted - 2009.11.28 13:55:00 - [43] i reported an alliance mate for lolcake botting one day he was banned for 30 days for having a macro.. some weird macro he got for some sort of programming on his G15 that accidentally was activated because he had a cup of coffee sitting on his 100Ç keyboard that somehow started it while he was going to sleep. sounds valid to me. i would totally place a cup of coffee on my 100Ç keyboard and go to sleep while i sit afk at a pos in 0.0 in one of the best truesecs in your crap space.
Zartanic Red Federation	Posted - 2009.11.28 14:44:00 - [44] Edited by: Zartanic on 28/11/2009 14:48:23 If you want to hear botters cry and make the most selfish excuses the Aion forums are entertaining. They had to ban a load as it was literally killing their game and it would not have been the first MMORPG to die for that reason. Not that the botters gave a toss about that. Of course now many botters have gone the market there is completely out of whack, which is will be for a while as supply and demand adjusts (elasticity of supply and demand in the short term is a well known economic factor in real life too) Also low bots means the devs can adjust drop rates effectively. One thing sometimes ignored about bot effects is they totally screw the game balance up for legitimate players. I don't want 'cheap' or 'expensive' prices I want the price dictated by honest players. The issue with EVE though is I suspect they are often hard to spot as a lot of our commands are automated anyway. In twitch play games they are obvious. I think CCP do well to keep a lid on it.
Cruentiorus Detroit Metal Works	Posted - 2009.11.28 15:22:00 - [45] CCP did the best thing they could to damage Ice Botters... they removed the importance of POS in SOV. Ice Botting will be 1/4 as profitable in the coming months HAHAHHAAHHA!
Joseph McVey	Posted - 2009.11.28 16:10:00 - [46] How do you know they're bots? They could just be people on meth staying up all night mining. Also to one of the earlier replies. Meth is sold in trailer parks which don't have real corners. So I ask what are so many people in trailer parks with internet connections. Are reactions space meth? Cause just like meth can only be made in a trailer park reactions only happen in lowsec.
Tyranus vonCarstein Caldari Eternal Night Industries	Posted - 2009.11.28 17:04:00 - [47] Originally by: Joseph McVey How do you know they're bots? They could just be people on meth staying up all night mining. Also to one of the earlier replies. Meth is sold in trailer parks which don't have real corners. So I ask what are so many people in trailer parks with internet connections. Are reactions space meth? Cause just like meth can only be made in a trailer park reactions only happen in lowsec. /thread... /twitch
slip66 Black Nova Corp IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.28 17:09:00 - [48] isn't spawning concord a petitionable offense?
Tyranus vonCarstein Caldari Eternal Night Industries	Posted - 2009.11.28 17:14:00 - [49] Originally by: slip66 isn't spawning concord a petitionable offense? I've never heard of this... What is your reason behind thinking this? I am guessing you're thinking along the lines of someone spawning concord with an alt to a belt they are going to mine in so the CONCORD reaction time is instant.

GM Horse	Posted - 2009.11.28 17:17:00 - [50] I am fascinated by how quickly a discussion about macro use turns into a discussion about meth. Oh, internet. Remember kids, both meth and macro use are Really Quite Bad Things. If you suspect one of your fellow players of using a macro of any sort, please do not hesitate to file a petition to report it to us, under the "EULA & Terms of Service" category. We investigate each and every one of the reports we get, and yes, we do take harsh punitive action against those found guilty.


Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.28 17:23:00 - [51] Originally by: GM Horse Remember kids, both meth and macro use are Really Quite Bad Things. If you suspect one of your fellow players of using a macro of any sort, please do not hesitate to file a petition to report it to us, under the "EULA & Terms of Service" category. Yes, yes. But what about if I suspect that they use meth!? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.11.28 17:26:00 - [52] Bots can usually run only very simple tasks. Change the gameplay so that it becomes less repetitive, less predicatable and you wipe out tons of bots. For example exploration: never saw any bots doing exploration and I think writing a bot for that is really a tough nut. So, change mining into something more interesting and less repetitive and you have solved two problems: problem 1 about the bot and problem 2 about mining being so boring. Same goes for other tasks as well. But yeah, won't happen ...
FireFox McProwler Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp.	Posted - 2009.11.28 17:37:00 - [53] But what if a Bot is using Meth? Do they get twice the punishment? All in all I think CCP is putting the most effort into fighting bots out of all the mmos makers.
Admiral IceBlock Caldari Northern Intelligence The Purge Alliance	Posted - 2009.11.28 17:44:00 - [54] Because bots/macro pay subscription too. Want to know more?
Joseph McVey	Posted - 2009.11.28 17:55:00 - [55] I'm interested in ccp's stance on playing under the influence of drugs. If ccp didn't want us to they wouldn't have made the skyboxes so pretty.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.11.28 18:04:00 - [56] Originally by: Admiral IceBlock Because bots/macro pay subscription too. CCP loses way more isk on the macros than they would make from their subscription, that is called common sense.
Swiftgaze	Posted - 2009.11.28 18:22:00 - [57] Originally by: Furb Killer Originally by: Admiral IceBlock Because bots/macro pay subscription too. CCP loses way more isk on the macros than they would make from their subscription, that is called common sense. Erm... Ermmmmm.. ERRRRMMM!! First off, CCP would not care about "losing ISK" unless they pay their employees with ISK. Secondly, Im still confused about that statement in every possible way, and Im hoping to be enlightened about why that is "common sense". You may be losing ISK due to botting, but the overall ingame ISK increases indirectly proportionally to the amount of players in game, be it bots or not. But what matters even more is, even if bot accounts are paid with plexes, and even if ISK sellers affect the plex price on the market and makes them cheaper, that only means that the people who buy plexes from the website and thus ISK from CCP simply buy MORE of them to earn their ISK, which earns CCP real money.
Celardore Gallente Terminal Logic TERMINATI0N	Posted - 2009.11.28 19:08:00 - [58] Originally by: Swiftgaze First off, CCP would not care about "losing ISK" unless they pay their employees with ISK. I think CCP used to pay their employees in ISK. Though I heard that they now pay them in USD, as they get a better ISK<=>$$$ conversion rate.
Ryhss Caldari Recalled Pleasure-Bots	Posted - 2009.11.28 19:22:00 - [59] Edited by: Ryhss on 28/11/2009 19:24:37 Originally by: NyteTyger Originally by: Forranz Valid argument and that's definitely something I didn't consider. However, it would be nice if there was something they could do interim. Why not just ban their IP permanently? IP banning is a tool against the uninformed. You could ban my IP right this second and I'd be in the game before you could close the connections dialogue Someone who makes their living doing this wouldn't even feel an IP ban. Tagging the banker acct though, that hits the bottom line. Wipes out my product, I got nothing to sell. Now, I have to 'restock' from the ground up, with a slightly higher price to cover my losses. That's the key. CCP's innovation in combating RMTers is in the PLEX and GTC system. They don't have to eliminate every single RMT bot, they just have to hit the bankers hard enough that the RMTers can't sell ISK for less than CCP can. If RMT is more expensive than just cashing in a PLEX, then no one buys from the RMTs. CCP takes all the money, and runs laughing to the bank having beat RMTers at their own game. Great post, I approve. Continue........... And CCP can't "lose ISK", they can add or subtract ISK with a push of a button(or a few lines of code.) You peopl are acting like ISK is real or something, that there's a finite amount. When in reality there's an INfinite amount.
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.11.28 19:36:00 - [60] What CCP should do is create their own ISK Sellers and do what American police call a "sell and bust" operation. Their own ISK Sellers will sell to ISK Buyers, and then bust them, and NOT give them their ISK either. It's the same as usual. End the demand, end the supply.



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