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Oh, how I hate collateral.

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Makkal Hanaya Drakenburg 132	Posted - 2012.06.18 03:51:00 - [1] - Quote Rookie whine ahead. This weekend, I had the pleasure of successfully moving 62 deliveries all about New Eden (longest delivery: 58 jumps) for a whopping profit of 20 million ISK. Best moment: When I delivered a bunch of packages to Dodixie and someone sent me a mail thanking me for how quickly IGÇÖd gotten them there. Worst moment (s): Whenever I looked at similar packages with a higher collateral. 18 Jumps through Low Sec GÇô 300k reward GÇô 10 million collateral 5 Jumps through High Sec GÇô 1 million reward GÇô 3 BILLION collateral Why?! I donGÇÖt have 3 billion. IGÇÖve got 40 million. At this rate, I have to do 867 jobs before IGÇÖll get 3 billion isk, which will allow me to make 1 m isk a job instead of 300k isk. And the worst part is that I WILL lose a ship while carrying a package. ThereGÇÖs no way to avoid it if youGÇÖre doing hundreds of jobs. Last night, someone listed a package for 1.86 m at a 40m collateral located in a .2 system. I was literally shaking as I picked it up and took it to Jita. Hauling for players feels like playing a game of Russian roulette using a gun with 100 cylinders. Last night, someone listed a package for 1.86 m at a 40m collateral located in a .2 system. I was literally shaking as I picked it up and took it to Jita. Hauling for players feels like playing a game of Russian roulette using a gun with 100 cylinders. And the strange thing is that I donGÇÖt find myself angry at the evil pirates who are shooting at me because they can, I find myself upset at titans of industry, who are having me risk at least 1/4ths to 3/4ths of all I own for crumbs. ItGÇÖs rather frustrating for a noble, hardworking hauler such as myself. although my eyes were open they might have just as well've been closed
Ersteen Hofs Republic University Minmatar Republic 18	Posted - 2012.06.18 04:07:00 - [2] - Quote because the stuff you carry is worth that much. its' not enough that the person whose package will be blown up will lose the ISK they invested in it, which is compensated by the collateral, they will also have to go through all the trouble obtaining it again. so they lose anyway. if there was some kind of limit on the collateral, people would probably haul everything themselves - at least you know who to blame if you lose it then. imagine all the griefers that would pick stuff up just to blow it up if the collateral was knowingly much less than the stuff in the package worth...
Makkal Hanaya Drakenburg 133	Posted - 2012.06.18 04:09:00 - [3] - Quote Before anyone makes assumptions.... Yes, the last part was in jest. I don't think industrial players are evil, I suspect they're just terrified of losing a shipment and the game allows them to offload that fear as massive collateral. I don't think pirates are evil hordes of orcs, it just feels that way when you shoot at me. I do 'fly safe.' I have warp stablizers, never autopilot, and a frigate with those rigs that increase your agility. I'm training cloaking right now. 'Don't fly what you can't afford to lose' is excellent advice, as is 'avoid low-sec,' sadly, if I only pick high-sec jobs with under 10 million collateral, I'm looking at about 90k per hour. I might as well PVE for that. I'm aware that with a low collateral, people would take a contract just to get the stuff, and the industrialist would be SOL. I also understand there's quite a bit of inflation right now. It's a self-serving whine, as most of them are. although my eyes were open they might have just as well've been closed
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 1949	Posted - 2012.06.18 04:12:00 - [4] - Quote They post those low prices because people pick up contracts at those low prices. Unionize, get better pay (i.e. join a corp). This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody.
Makkal Hanaya Drakenburg 133	Posted - 2012.06.18 04:15:00 - [5] - Quote RubyPorto wrote: They post those low prices because people pick up contracts at those low prices. Unionize, get better pay (i.e. join a corp). You seem to be under the impression I'm complaining about the reward. Actually, I'm not. If the collateral were lower, I could move 2 or 4 packages at a time, giving me a higher ISK per hour. Yes, I am thinking about joining a PvE corp, but I'd like to find a good one. There's also the fact that I'm not sure if this is something I want to do for years to come. although my eyes were open they might have just as well've been closed
Trollin Drunken Traders 96	Posted - 2012.06.18 04:17:00 - [6] - Quote you should be upset at yourself for accepting slave work and slave wages You are your own worst enemy.
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 1950	Posted - 2012.06.18 04:20:00 - [7] - Quote Makkal Hanaya wrote: RubyPorto wrote: They post those low prices because people pick up contracts at those low prices. Unionize, get better pay (i.e. join a corp). The rewards don't bother me. If the collateral were lower, I could move 2 or 4 packages at a time, giving me a higher ISK per hour. I am thinking about joining a PvE corp, but I'd like to find a good one. There's also the fact that I'm not sure if this is something I want to do for months to come. But yes.... you're correct. Collateral is there due to the value of the package so that enterprising your haulers don't simply steal the package. (PS: Anything makes better isk/hr than hauling. Freightering's useful because it makes good isk/effort once you get a freighter and a bil or two for collateral) This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody.
Nicolo da'Vicenza Divine Power. Cascade Imminent 1243	Posted - 2012.06.18 04:21:00 - [8] - Quote Go join red frog or something if you want to actually make money hauling
Makkal Hanaya Drakenburg 134	Posted - 2012.06.18 04:21:00 - [9] - Quote Trollin wrote: you should be upset at yourself for accepting slave work and slave wages I'm not sure I'm ready to be upset with myself over not making enough money in a game. That said, I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Should I mine? Should I just continue to PvE? PvEing feels like I'm opting out of the game. I do dislike the idea of quitting after one weekend. although my eyes were open they might have just as well've been closed
sabre906 Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice 233	Posted - 2012.06.18 04:21:00 - [10] - Quote Why don't you just do npc courier missions? They pay better. Player courier contracts, like Jita local, exist only as scams, and are not worth reading through. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454

Nex Parietis Templar Directorate Yulai Federation 0	Posted - 2012.06.18 04:21:00 - [11] - Quote I have found myself taking on a courier contract out of a some random need to wander systems for an hour or so. But i have to give you kudos for jumping right into the low sec hauling while being a new character. So for that, I will have to give you kudos on that. My first experience with low was dying in a velator on a tutorial mission and then blowing my industrial up in factional warfare. I need to cut my teeth in pvp sometime though. Good luck op, and fly safe.
Hermia Aliastra Gallente Federation 11	Posted - 2012.06.18 04:22:00 - [12] - Quote Makkal Hanaya wrote: Before anyone makes assumptions.... Yes, the last part was in jest. I don't think industrial players are evil, I suspect they're just terrified of losing a shipment and the game allows them to offload that fear as massive collateral. I don't think pirates are evil hordes of orcs, it just feels that way when you shoot at me. I do 'fly safe.' I have warp stablizers, never autopilot, and a frigate with those rigs that increase your agility. I'm training cloaking right now. 'Don't fly what you can't afford to lose' is excellent advice, as is 'avoid low-sec,' sadly, if I only pick high-sec jobs with under 10 million collateral, I'm looking at about 90k per hour. I might as well PVE for that. I'm aware that with a low collateral, people would take a contract just to get the stuff, and the industrialist would be SOL. I also understand there's quite a bit of inflation right now. It's a self-serving whine, as most of them are. Hi Makkal, I agree that the courier jobs you've listed are very stingy and pathetic. I didn't know people actually do courier jobs, maybe ill try it out and make sure the guys hauling my trades get at least 15%. Problem is if i stand to make 30mill on a particular trade the capital investment might be something like 200million, so i would have to make that the collateral. If i was in your shoes i would buy a PLEX, get a basic working capital and start trading! I cant imagine how awful doing thos jobs are, especially if its as bad as you say. you will burn out fast this way.
Makkal Hanaya Drakenburg 134	Posted - 2012.06.18 04:23:00 - [13] - Quote Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote: Go join red frog or something if you want to actually make money hauling Telling a rookie to join red frog is like telling one to go fly a battleship. You have to have two accounts. You must be able to pilot a freighter. although my eyes were open they might have just as well've been closed
Makkal Hanaya Drakenburg 134	Posted - 2012.06.18 04:32:00 - [14] - Quote Nex Parietis wrote: I have found myself taking on a courier contract out of a some random need to wander systems for an hour or so. But i have to give you kudos for jumping right into the low sec hauling while being a new character. I started with Amarr lowsec, which is safer than Caldari lowsec. Actually, the average person I encounter in low-sec seems friendlier than those I meet around the trade hubs. ...maybe they're just trying to lower my guard. although my eyes were open they might have just as well've been closed
Ersteen Hofs Republic University Minmatar Republic 18	Posted - 2012.06.18 04:34:00 - [15] - Quote pay is low for small packages probably because people haul several packages at the same time using freighter or orca. so they get the worth for every m3 they got. compare the cargo hold of your hauler and a freighter and see how much will you earn when you get it, and the capital needed fort he collateral. and 40 mil is pocket change in eve, so maybe you should try some other ways to get isk, for example mission running. sadly it's the best way to get isk for the new player since they get standing that will allow them to run lvl4s once they get the skills to do them and those earn about 20 mil isk per hour with cheap fits.
RubyPorto SniggWaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT 1950	Posted - 2012.06.18 04:36:00 - [16] - Quote Makkal Hanaya wrote: Trollin wrote: you should be upset at yourself for accepting slave work and slave wages I'm not sure I'm ready to be upset with myself over not making enough money in a game. That said, I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Should I mine? Should I just continue to PvE? PvEing feels like I'm opting out of the game. I do dislike the idea of quitting after one weekend. You can PvE for a nestegg, you can learn to trade yourself (you can roll 50m through at a pretty high rate of return), you can mine, you can scam people, you can literally do anything. Find something that you enjoy. The rest will come. (Oh, and if you like hauling, Push Industries has a rookie wing) This is EVE. -á Everybody Versus Everybody.
Ris Dnalor Black Rebel Rifter Club 359	Posted - 2012.06.18 04:38:00 - [17] - Quote Makkal Hanaya wrote: Nex Parietis wrote: I have found myself taking on a courier contract out of a some random need to wander systems for an hour or so. But i have to give you kudos for jumping right into the low sec hauling while being a new character. I started with Amarr lowsec, which is safer than Caldari lowsec. Actually, the average person I encounter in low-sec seems friendlier than those I meet around the trade hubs. ...maybe they're just trying to lower my guard. There are lots of great folks living in low sec, but shooting at you is just part of the conversation to most It is difficult starting out, but there are some lucrative hauls to be had, they just tend to get snapped up pretty quickly. Do what you enjoy, and don't worry about the isk, after awhile it'll become fairly easy to get. best of luck to you and welcome to eve. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961 EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody - Qolde
BeforetheStorm90 The Sagan Clan Persona Non Gratis 24	Posted - 2012.06.18 04:41:00 - [18] - Quote Makkal Hanaya wrote: 5 Jumps through High Sec GÇô 1 million reward GÇô 3 BILLION collateral Why?! Perhaps it wasn't the case with this high sec order, but often times contracts with massive collateral and little reward are only there because the issuer WANTS you to die. In other words, its a scam just ignore it. Also, why do you dislike pve? I'll admit that lv 4s in a BS incredibly boring (thats why I typically refuse to do them solo), but I found using a frig/cruiser in the lower lv missions to be quite fun. :) Also, do pvp, otherwise you likely eventually quit regardless of what you do.
Emma Royd Maddled Gommerils 113	Posted - 2012.06.18 04:54:00 - [19] - Quote I'll throw a different light on it. Suppose I was moving mission hubs, and had collected over the years some unusual items, maybe not items that have high isk value, but items that would be difficult to replace. While the total value of the courier contract maybe only 300mil since it's mainly ammo and a few mods, I could be tempted to put on a higher collateral for a couple of reasons. 1) To compensate me more than isk to replace the rare items. 2) To hopefully dissuade an amateur (no offence) captain who isn't that bothered about the odd chance of losing something, and encourage a more 'professional' pilot who might use scouts through dodgy areas etc. Courier running is rubbish, it's vastly undervalued and underpaid, but while-ever people do it for the low wages then it will carry on being a low paid job. It takes a long time flying to make any kind of isk, and even when you join one of the delivery corps, you're still going to be better off working up to missioning and running Level 4 missions than flying other peoples space stuff around
Abdiel Kavash Paladin Order Fidelas Constans 597	Posted - 2012.06.18 06:13:00 - [20] - Quote I use courier contracts almost daily to ship items all across EVE. I wouldn't even consider hauling anything around highsec myself, unless I need it right away. In the time it would take me to do the hauling I could make fifty times what I have to pay the hauler. Plus if I get blown up, my stuff is gone and I'm SOL. If a courier gets blown up, I get paid, and I make money. There are two values input when creating the contract: the collateral and the reward. The collateral depends only on the value of items I want shipped. It is a simple insurance - if you fail (willingly or not) to ship the contract, I don't lose money. As I always overcollateralize, I actually make money if a hauler is being dumb, picks up six contracts with a billion ISK of stuff in each, and gets blown up. If I ship 500M worth of items, I will set the collateral to 550M - regardless of distance, volume, sec status, etc. The reward is dictated by the open market, just like everything in EVE. As long as there is enough people willing to move billions of ISK and thousands of m^3 across half the galaxy for pennies, I have no rational reason to pay more. There is no hate or compassion for newbies involved, no desire to screw anyone over or throw ISK at people. Business is business. Yes, the result in the current state of EVE is a very harsh contract market. Pretty much everything (including highsec mining) can make you more money than picking up courier contracts, if you can be at least somewhat behind the keyboard. But due to the high supply of haulers, courier contracts will always be as cheap as is the cheapest hauler willing to accept. However don't quit just yet if you want to live the life of a space truck driver. There are heaps of ISK to be made hauling items between different trade hubs. Look for systems where people need to buy a lot of stuff - starter systems, mission hubs, nullsec entrances. See if you can find items that sell that you can buy cheaper in a trade hub and move them there for profit. The offers aren't given to you on a silver plate, but once you find out how to spot profitable trades, you will be rolling in ISK.

Dardoign Mine n Mellow 8	Posted - 2012.06.18 06:21:00 - [21] - Quote OMG I really miss this. When 20 mills was a fortune and you would risk your ass to make a million. Players dream of the day when they have 50 mill SP's plus. Usually by then the excitement has died and rather than playing the game they are in the forums waiting for news on when CCP are going to fix their latest brilliant, unwanted brainwave.
Beckie DeLey Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation 82	Posted - 2012.06.18 07:08:00 - [22] - Quote sabre906 wrote: Why don't you just do npc courier missions? They pay better. Player courier contracts, like Jita local, exist only as scams, and are not worth reading through. This. There's a point in the life of every industrialist when he realizes that there's basically no need for him to carry stuff from A to B unles sit can be done in a frigate. People value their time so low that there's always someone willing to ship all your crap from Rens to Jita for a few millions, possibly even in multiple trips, all the while taking the risk of the transport. Quite interesting, really. I have no idea why anyone would want to do this to himself. If you want to make a living of hauling, consider looking into cloaky transports and start up gunrunning into low and null. A lot of your profit will come from trading skills, market research, buying low and selling high. By that point, you are really more of a trader than a hauler, but that's the closest hauling related profession you can get into if you actually want to get somewhere. Stop caring about courier contracts and let the market dictate where you go and ferry your stuff. This way you can at least reap the rewards of your work and not only the risks. It's The Legendary Extraordinary Me
DeBingJos Avalon Project Shadow Rock Alliance 305	Posted - 2012.06.18 08:38:00 - [23] - Quote The collateral is higher than the value of the good you are transporting because otherwise you could just steal the stuff in the contract and make a profit. It is that simple. The guy making the contract is not scamming you, he is making sure you are not scamming him. Fix FW !
Pak Narhoo Knights of Kador 565	Posted - 2012.06.18 08:53:00 - [24] - Quote DeBingJos wrote: The collateral is higher than the value of the good you are transporting because otherwise you could just steal the stuff in the contract and make a profit. It is that simple. The guy making the contract is not scamming you, he is making sure you are not scamming him. Hmm, hmm, and that contract I saw yesterday in Amarr, 500mil payout, 3 bil collateral, needed a freighter or JF to move the goods, and ended up in low sec, sure that wasn't someone hoping to make a quick buck and pat his billboard with a freighter or JF kill? It is always possible it wasn't, then again this is EVE. Hi, I'm CCP Arrow, I screwed up the.. ummm...
Marcus Harikari Guitar Players of EVE 66	Posted - 2012.06.18 09:04:00 - [25] - Quote Why on earth are you doing this in a FRIGATE instead of an industrial ship?!?!?!
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 1316	Posted - 2012.06.18 09:07:00 - [26] - Quote Makkal Hanaya, welcome to EvE, where demand and supply dictate pricing like a real, not drugged (like RL is) economy would do. What you are seeing is the result of natural competition between haulers. Most of them don't even do it for a true profit but just as a side income they may get while they haul their own stuff to a certain destination. They will just take the contracts that lead to the same place. It's hard to compete against people who do this just to pad their otherwise unpaid hauling for their own stuff. In order to "upgrade" you need a freighter or an agile ship (for small packs, high value) and then take a bulk of order at the same time, selecting those paying enough while still having a moderate collateral. Even if you did have 3B, you should NOT pick those contracts up because either they are a bait to get you killed OR you will be scanned and killed on the way anyway. With careful selection you can make 20-40M per session (I did), which is not a lot. But that's the life of the hauler, even in RL they are on the very low end of the supply - demand. They are low skill, easy entry point professions a la burger flipper and are paid as such. If you want to become a professional hauler you indeed have to join the likes of Red Frog, Push and similar. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Makkal Hanaya Drakenburg 141	Posted - 2012.06.18 09:51:00 - [27] - Quote Marcus Harikari wrote: Why on earth are you doing this in a FRIGATE instead of an industrial ship?!?!?! My frigate travels faster, aligns faster, and is harder to target than a Sigil. Moreover, it's not obviously something used to haul valuable items. although my eyes were open they might have just as well've been closed
Cebraio Starfire Oasis 84	Posted - 2012.06.18 10:17:00 - [28] - Quote Yes, don't pick those contracts with extremely high collateral. They are usually scams that rely on you getting blown up. I understand your interest in the profession. I also like to fly space trucks and would be happy if that was actually worth doing. Unfortunately the prices which are paid are not worth switching from any other profession in EVE. Last weekend I've offered a contract with a fair 600m collateral and 100m reward. Got it delivered the next day. Ok, maybe I overdid it with the reward, but it was delivery out of 0.0. Needed a jump freighter and in addition the person needed to have access to a player conquered station. I couldn't do it myself and I didn't want to see the contract rotting there, thus the high reward. You see unless you have a freighter (or JF) there is rarely decent isk to make and the risk is always on your side. Good luck with it anyway!
Phugoid Black Horse Enterprises-International 27	Posted - 2012.06.18 13:22:00 - [29] - Quote Hey Makkal...... Doing courier runs is ONE of the ways I make my Isks. I've actually have made at least 500mil in runs in just a few weeks time. Anywaz, alot depends on the type of ship you want to use. Use the proper ship for the proper mission. When I do the occasional run into lo sec, I ONLY use the Viator. Since it can warp cloaky :) Only bad thing is that it can only hold about 10km3. There are some things to look out for in certain contracts as to whether they may be a trap or not. If you havent already, make a quick warp to spot at all the major trading hubs. for example, at Ammar, u can warp away in a second or so if done right :) My rule of thumb is to not do a run inwhich the collateral is more than 10% of my total ISKS. Thats as much as Im willing to risk on any run. And it has to reward at the min. 200k per jump (more if you consider the return trip home) Lately most of the rewards have been between 4 and 10 mil. Occasionally you will see some nice ones which reward between 12, up to 50 mil, tho rare. And on occasion, like you said you will get a Thank You. And on occasion an extra reward. Also, if you do a run inwhich the issuer made an obvious mistake, say made the collateral way to low considering what you are transporting, instead of failing the contract and keeping the goodies, Ive made the delivery and told the issuer that I could have kept their stuff but didnt.. :) which resulted in a bonus of 50 mil for being honest. You can make good Isks doing runs, but just dont make it your ONLY source of income. I have a few billion in ISKs atm, and I'd say about 50% of that has been made via courier runs. The rest in mining and missions. Good Luck...happy hauling! -áObergruppenfuhrer
silens vesica Corsair Cartel 98	Posted - 2012.06.18 14:06:00 - [30] - Quote Makkal Hanaya wrote: Last night, someone listed a package for 1.86 m at a 40m collateral located in a .2 system. I was literally shaking as I picked it up and took it to Jita. Hauling for players feels like playing a game of Russian roulette using a gun with 100 cylinders. Exciting, wasn't it? Congratulations - You're playing the game right: Taking risks, boldly going where few dare go, tempting fate. Carry on! Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.



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