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Jerid Verges
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Posted - 2009.12.07 00:47:00 -
[1]
Now, I have been searching the Eve-Online Knowledge base, and Evelopedia. And for the life of me, I CANNOT find a list of exactly what CCP considers "Exploits"
The closest I got was a small paragraph informing players to report exploit users with petititions when they see them. Well. This is not really feasible when players don't actually KNOW what is or isn't an exploit.
Classic example? I had someone on the forums tell me Jetcan mining was an exploit.
Obviously, somewhere a huge list needs to be made that highlights what IS an exploit, describe said exploit, and tell us what aren't exploits. This way we don't do something we think is pretty smart and find when we log on the day after to find out what we did was actually an exploit. And obviously so that we can hunt down exploit abusers better.
Now, if there already IS a list of exploits. And I just haven't looked hard enough, it needs to be easier to find.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.12.07 02:26:00 -
[2]
Not just yes, but hell yes. There's too many parts of this game that are still unfixed and merely patched with someone declaring it an exploit for that list of declarations not to be publicized.
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Alekseyev Karrde
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Posted - 2009.12.07 17:59:00 -
[3]
YES. ---
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Jared Ulfsuun
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Posted - 2009.12.07 18:36:00 -
[4]
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De'Veldrin
Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2009.12.07 18:36:00 -
[5]
OP: "I don't know how to hack into a server farm and steal sensitive data so you should tell me how to do that so I can make sure I never do it."
That's what you just said. The phrasing was different, and the purpose (probably) isn't malicious, but essentially that's what you asked for.
There's a reason CCP doesn't publish details on game exploits. It's more or less the same reason you don't post your bank account number on a public forum.
But what the hell, I'll support the proposal just for the chuckles if it actually gets implemented. --Vel
In the world of emoticons, I was colon capital d. |
Song Li
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Posted - 2009.12.07 18:38:00 -
[6]
I can see CCP not wanting a list since it gives people directions on what to do. I think it will be up to CCP to decide on their risk management with this one, but I support the idea of having one so players don't get screwed over by not knowing.
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Astria Tiphareth
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.12.07 18:47:00 -
[7]
Originally by: De'Veldrin OP: "I don't know how to hack into a server farm and steal sensitive data so you should tell me how to do that so I can make sure I never do it."
That's what you just said. The phrasing was different, and the purpose (probably) isn't malicious, but essentially that's what you asked for.
Doesn't read that way to me - it reads 'please tell us what is viewed as unacceptable, so that when we see it, we can report it or point out what is clearly an exploit, instead of hoping the GMs can figure it out' and also 'when some idiot claims something is an exploit, we can point to the list and say "does it even remotely look like any of those?"'.
There's a big difference between a list of how-to's and a list of what was already in the past listed as an exploit as evidence of 'these are the things that if caught will get you banned'. It's why in real life we have laws, police, and why ignorance of the law is no excuse - you can find out the law, with clarity. This is not the case with exploits - you have to guess, petition, re-petition, and hope someone at CCP is awake.
Nobody asked for details - guidelines wouldn't hurt. Part of me says that such things are common sense, but that's in such short supply these days... ___ My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties... Environmental Effects
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2009.12.07 19:33:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Originally by: De'Veldrin OP: "I don't know how to hack into a server farm and steal sensitive data so you should tell me how to do that so I can make sure I never do it."
That's what you just said. The phrasing was different, and the purpose (probably) isn't malicious, but essentially that's what you asked for.
Doesn't read that way to me - it reads 'please tell us what is viewed as unacceptable, so that when we see it, we can report it or point out what is clearly an exploit, instead of hoping the GMs can figure it out' and also 'when some idiot claims something is an exploit, we can point to the list and say "does it even remotely look like any of those?"'.
There's a big difference between a list of how-to's and a list of what was already in the past listed as an exploit as evidence of 'these are the things that if caught will get you banned'. It's why in real life we have laws, police, and why ignorance of the law is no excuse - you can find out the law, with clarity. This is not the case with exploits - you have to guess, petition, re-petition, and hope someone at CCP is awake.
Nobody asked for details - guidelines wouldn't hurt. Part of me says that such things are common sense, but that's in such short supply these days...
We already have a guideline - if it violates a game mechanic to provide an advantage to a small subset of users, it's an exploit.
But I'm willing to give this whole list them thing a chance. Just don't be surprised when half the player base goes "Huh. So that's how you do that" and promptly goes off and does it. We're all human, and humans are an inherently selfish animal.
Hmm. I think my cynicism might be showing today. --Vel
In the world of emoticons, I was colon capital d. |
Seth Ruin
Minmatar Ominous Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2009.12.07 19:42:00 -
[9]
Originally by: De'Veldrin There's a reason CCP doesn't publish details on game exploits.
Not only this, but the inverse would also be a problem: "Well, it's not on the exploit list, so it's obviously not an exploit!"
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2009.12.07 21:24:00 -
[10]
Wiki
See "exploit". Even if CCP posts a list, I'm fairly confident they will still get a petitions every day from people who "couldn't warp" because another player warp scrambled them or "couldn't lock" because another person put Ewar on them.
An exploit is about intent. You can't list intent. If something is listed in the forums or wiki and no one from CCP says "EXPLOIT" in those locations, I would think it is safe to say it isn't an exploit.
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Bunyip
Gallente Center for Advanced Studies
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Posted - 2009.12.07 21:47:00 -
[11]
That wiki article above me pretty succinctly covered what an exploit is. I see no reason to post the list, as while you may have the best intentions at heart, most players will not and will use those to their advantage.
Sorry, but while I can see the utility of such a list, I can also see distinct reasons why they would not list them, and think they're on the right path. I do not support this measure. "May all your hits be crits." - Knights of the Dinner Table. |
Alekseyev Karrde
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Posted - 2009.12.08 01:05:00 -
[12]
You assume every player knows what is and isnt a "normal game mechanic" which they clearly do not. Spelling out known exploits will increase players ability to recognize and report them and hopefully lower the number of petitions for things that really arnt exploits. ---
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Awesome Possum
Imperium Signal Corps
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Posted - 2009.12.08 03:11:00 -
[13]
yes ♥
Wreck Disposal Services |
Don Pellegrino
Helljumpers
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Posted - 2009.12.08 06:11:00 -
[14]
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Helen Highwater
Gallente Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.12.08 12:21:00 -
[15]
What Bagehi said. Also it's a lose-lose situation for CCP, there are exploits that probably aren't detectable unless a GM witnesses it directly. If CCP list those exploits then the expectation from the playerbase is that they would enforce them - which may not be possible. If they don't list those exploits then players would wonder why the list isn't complete.
There are good reasons why no MMO company does this. --------------------------------------------------------------
Let's not and say we did. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2009.12.08 16:16:00 -
[16]
Originally by: De'Veldrin We already have a guideline - if it violates a game mechanic to provide an advantage to a small subset of users, it's an exploit.
But I'm willing to give this whole list them thing a chance. Just don't be surprised when half the player base goes "Huh. So that's how you do that" and promptly goes off and does it. We're all human, and humans are an inherently selfish animal.
Hmm. I think my cynicism might be showing today.
It's not about things that are obviously exploits - everyone knows that macroing, hacking the servers, item duping, all that kind of stuff is obviously an exploit, and nobody should need to be told that.
The classic example of what I'm pretty sure OP is talking about is POS bowling. For those of you who don't know what that was, basically you park a guy outside a POS bubble, warp to that guy at range in a Titan or other physically large ship, find yourself in the bubble, collision detection goes haywire, and a bunch of ships stored in that bubble wind up outside for your buddies in pods to jump into.
For an extended period of time, this was considered valid(if lowbrow) gameplay, until CCP declared it an exploit a couple years back now. Thing is, I don't think it's yet been fixed in the actual game code. Haven't tried it myself(since I know it's banned), but imagine some guy who wasn't even playing when it was declared verboten, accidentally does it one day, decides it's really cool, and tries to bring back POS bowling. He knows it's a bit shady, but he can't find anywhere it says it's not allowed, so he doesn't know it's considered an exploit, and he has no practical way of knowing - what's he going to do, read 1.2 million forum threads to find out what is and isn't allowed? Whereas if such a list of things that have officially and publicly been declared exploits is put somewhere easily findable, then if he has worries he can get a single, authoritative answer.
It's not a perfect solution, but it'd be a great improvement.
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2009.12.08 16:24:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
Originally by: De'Veldrin We already have a guideline - if it violates a game mechanic to provide an advantage to a small subset of users, it's an exploit.
But I'm willing to give this whole list them thing a chance. Just don't be surprised when half the player base goes "Huh. So that's how you do that" and promptly goes off and does it. We're all human, and humans are an inherently selfish animal.
Hmm. I think my cynicism might be showing today.
It's not about things that are obviously exploits - everyone knows that macroing, hacking the servers, item duping, all that kind of stuff is obviously an exploit, and nobody should need to be told that.
The classic example of what I'm pretty sure OP is talking about is POS bowling. For those of you who don't know what that was, basically you park a guy outside a POS bubble, warp to that guy at range in a Titan or other physically large ship, find yourself in the bubble, collision detection goes haywire, and a bunch of ships stored in that bubble wind up outside for your buddies in pods to jump into.
For an extended period of time, this was considered valid(if lowbrow) gameplay, until CCP declared it an exploit a couple years back now. Thing is, I don't think it's yet been fixed in the actual game code. Haven't tried it myself(since I know it's banned), but imagine some guy who wasn't even playing when it was declared verboten, accidentally does it one day, decides it's really cool, and tries to bring back POS bowling. He knows it's a bit shady, but he can't find anywhere it says it's not allowed, so he doesn't know it's considered an exploit, and he has no practical way of knowing - what's he going to do, read 1.2 million forum threads to find out what is and isn't allowed? Whereas if such a list of things that have officially and publicly been declared exploits is put somewhere easily findable, then if he has worries he can get a single, authoritative answer.
It's not a perfect solution, but it'd be a great improvement.
The problem is in order to adequately explain what the exploit is, you have to provide enough information to be able to perform it. Answer me honestly, how many people do you think will read that and go - "Huh. Sounds interesting." and then trot off to do it. --Vel
In the world of emoticons, I was colon capital d. |
Merete Magnusson
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Posted - 2010.01.05 23:56:00 -
[18]
I understand and agree with the reasons for not posting such a list, but I find myself in a quandry. My main account has been banned, and I honestly do not know what I did to cause that. I can't think of anything I did that might be considered an exploit, and I certainly didn't do anything knowing it was. So far, I haven't gotten a response from my petition to find out what happened, but it is only about 24 hours old. Mainly, I want to find out what happened so I can fix it and/or make sure it doesn't happen again. I happen to like playing this game....
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar Special Projects Executive The Obsidian Legion
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Posted - 2010.01.06 00:57:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Merete Magnusson I understand and agree with the reasons for not posting such a list, but I find myself in a quandry. My main account has been banned, and I honestly do not know what I did to cause that. I can't think of anything I did that might be considered an exploit, and I certainly didn't do anything knowing it was. So far, I haven't gotten a response from my petition to find out what happened, but it is only about 24 hours old. Mainly, I want to find out what happened so I can fix it and/or make sure it doesn't happen again. I happen to like playing this game....
You've already started on the right path - filing a petition. The next step is to be patient. Some petitions take longer than others to answer. --Vel
Brand new year, same old attitude. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Agent-Orange
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Posted - 2010.01.06 02:37:00 -
[20]
Originally by: De'Veldrin The problem is in order to adequately explain what the exploit is, you have to provide enough information to be able to perform it. Answer me honestly, how many people do you think will read that and go - "Huh. Sounds interesting." and then trot off to do it.
Probably some. But they did the same thing when they banned it pretty publicly in the first place. And besides, you just have to describe what, not how - "Intentionally warping inside a POS shield that you do not have access to for the purposes of knocking ships outside the shield is a bannable exploit." would be a perfectly reasonable way to do it, for example.
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Aloriana Jacques
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2010.01.06 02:42:00 -
[21]
I must agree that a proper list of exploits would be very beneficial so people know what actions can get you banned outside of the usual obvious things (hacking, botting, etc.) It would be very important to keep the list updated so as to also avoid claims of "Well x wasn't listed".
The list should not describe how to do the action, but what the action is. For example; "Bumping other ships through a POS shield that is considered locked and/or hostile." would be sufficient to explain POS bowling. Others, of course, would require more descriptions; such as a full list of "disposable alt" uses that are considered exploits. - - - Aloriana Jacques - Skill Sheet
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Ivona Frios
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Posted - 2010.01.06 07:05:00 -
[22]
Yes, CCP should publish some type of list for what is consider to be exploits.
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EdwardNardella
Capital Construction Research
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Posted - 2010.01.06 19:14:00 -
[23]
Seriously needed. Is this an exploit:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1242271&page=1
Using a Logitech keyboard to control simple mouse macros to set orbit distance dynamically?
There are tens of different practices that can be considered grey area that need clarification. CCRES is recruiting pilots who want to live in WSpace/Wormholes. Fill out an application here! |
SupaKudoRio
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Posted - 2010.01.07 11:05:00 -
[24]
Edited by: SupaKudoRio on 07/01/2010 11:05:51 GMs first need to agree on what is and isn't an exploit. Their knowledge on the matter is as patchy as a ten year old pair of jeans.
Supported... though the list should be formatted to make sure it isn't a how-to page. As in, a list of the end-results of exploits recognisable by the normal player rather than 'doing this and this like that is an exploit'; that information needs to be kept internal.
On another note, how do you like your pods in the morning? |
Maxsim Goratiev
Imperium Technologies
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Posted - 2010.01.07 14:58:00 -
[25]
This is downright stupid. You cannot bad punish for a law that isn't public. If it is a punishable offense, it needs to be clearly stated somewhere that it is such. We have laws that state that stealing and murder is illegal. If someone does read the law and go "that's cool, i'm gonna try it" their is a jail system in place. We do not (or at least should not in most states) have hidden laws, that next law a businessmen find himself a jail for a market manipulation that "offends the society and harms the economic system". If it's bannable offence, their needs to be a clear definition of it, and preferably a list. People have given above a large number of examples. Someone kept saying htat buying ships, insuring them and poping them for 2 mill of insurance money is a bannable offense. Hteir are tons of examples. It needs to be made clear.
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Carlo Curiosus
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.01.07 16:06:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Carlo Curiosus on 07/01/2010 16:06:39 Edited by: Carlo Curiosus on 07/01/2010 16:06:23 I support this.
A list of exploits doesn't necessarily need to be exhaustive, but some better guidelines as to what players should report would be very helpful.
I think the danger of more people performing exploits is actually fairly minimal - you don't need to specify every detail of an exploit in the list (as stated already), and if people do start (or carry on) with exploits when they're in the list I'd say that's an even more clear-cut case for a warning/ban.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.01.07 18:40:00 -
[27]
I offer this up: is there a list of exploits?
POS Bowling - For the majority of the time the mechanics of the game allowed this to happen, GMs had differing opinions on whether or not it was an exploit. Then they all agreed it was legal because they couldn't police it. When they eventually all agreed it was an exploit, the devs fixed it in a patch a month later. So, this exploit list would have existed for a month in that case.
If POS Bowling is your example of what you think needs to be fixed, then what you want is not allowing GMs to make judgment calls on exploits. Besides, as far as I know, GMs only issued warnings, so this is a bad example.
I recall another exploit where warnings were passed out (second warning got you a temp ban) that was later fixed - agressing someone with an alt, ejecting from that ship, jumping into it with you main, then jumping the main character back into his normal ship. This would lead to a bug where the person you had aggressed would see your main as blinking (like they had rights to shoot), but he wasn't. This too was fixed shortly after warnings started being dished out.
As far as I know, such "ongoing exploits" which are known but not fixed yet are very rare, so this "exploit list" you ask for would normally have nothing on it (other than AFK macros).
Most exploit warnings/penalties were dished out after the fix, and those have been for things very very clearly an exploit (with the exception of the two I just listed).
Short and simple is GMs give a warning first for most simple things. Huge things usually lead to emergency patches once devs/GMs learn about them. The only exception to this rule is AFK macros.
Fix Local |
Omega Flames
Last Resort Inn SYSTEM SHOCK INITIATIVE
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Posted - 2010.01.07 20:42:00 -
[28]
------------------------- "Forsys > WAR Forsys > HUH Forsys > WHAT IS IT GOOD FOR Harry Sunday > loot Forsys > touchT" |
Magnus Orin
Minmatar United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity
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Posted - 2010.01.07 23:56:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Magnus Orin on 07/01/2010 23:56:25 Absolutely not supported.
I understand where the OP is coming from.
But can't you guys all envision the massive increase in exploiting that would occur if CCP ever did publish such a list.
This will never happen, the request is ridiculous.
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Aloriana Jacques
Amarr Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2010.01.08 01:23:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Magnus Orin Edited by: Magnus Orin on 07/01/2010 23:56:25 Absolutely not supported.
I understand where the OP is coming from.
But can't you guys all envision the massive increase in exploiting that would occur if CCP ever did publish such a list.
This will never happen, the request is ridiculous.
A list of exploits does not need to contain a step by step guide on how to make them occur, the majority of the time. And besides, if people use it as an instruction manual to exploit (especially a well known exploit) then there's a VERY good chance they'll be caught and their account banned. - - - Aloriana Jacques - Skill Sheet
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.01.08 18:47:00 -
[31]
If you want a list, wouldn't this be handled better by creating a wiki page and letting players list exploits?
Fix Local |
GavinCapacitor
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Posted - 2010.01.08 19:25:00 -
[32]
To all the people out there saying "but a list of exploits will just mean everyone will start exploiting because they know how now", That might just -gasp- force CCP to fix whatever it is instead of the BS we put up with now. For example, the whole moon mining fiasco. Whats more, it would temporarily remove the unfair advantage garnered by the players who already know about a given exploit.
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club
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Posted - 2010.01.08 19:51:00 -
[33]
Originally by: GavinCapacitor To all the people out there saying "but a list of exploits will just mean everyone will start exploiting because they know how now", That might just -gasp- force CCP to fix whatever it is instead of the BS we put up with now. For example, the whole moon mining fiasco. Whats more, it would temporarily remove the unfair advantage garnered by the players who already know about a given exploit.
CCP did fix the moon mining thing as soon as they found out about it. So again I say, exploits usually are not known by CCP without being fixed, so the list would contain: **Node Crashing** **Game Mods** **AFK Macros** **RL Hacking** **RMT**
All of which are already listed in the EULA, so I have copied the list you asked for here for those who didn't think to look:
Quote:
7 CONDUCT A. Specifically Restricted Conduct Your continued access to the System and license to play the Game is subject to proper conduct. Without limiting CCP's rights to control the Game environment, and the conduct of the players within that environment, CCP prohibits the following practices that CCP has determined detract from the overall user experience of the users playing the Game:
1. You may not take any action that imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on the System. 2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played. 3. You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. 4. You may not use the Software, or any information accessible through the System, to bypass the System login architecture or create or provide any other means through which the System may be accessed and/or the Game may be played by others, as, for example, through server emulators. 5. You may not engage in any conduct that results in an Account containing items, objects, currency, character attributes, rank, or status that are inappropriate for the level or rank of the character contained in the Account, including without limitation arranging, making or accepting transfers of items to a character without adequate consideration, thereby augmenting or aggregating items in an Account and increasing its value for an Account sale.
B. Selling Items and Objects You may not transfer, sell or auction, or buy or accept any offer to transfer, sell or auction (or offer to do any of the foregoing), any content appearing within the Game environment, including without limitation characters, character attributes, items, currency, and objects, other than via a permitted Character Transfer as described in section 3 above. You may not encourage or induce any other person to participate in such a prohibited transaction. The buying, selling or auctioning (or any attempt at doing so) of characters, character attributes, items, currency, or objects, whether through online auctions (such as ebay), newsgroups, postings on message boards or any other means is prohibited by the EULA and a violation of CCP's proprietary rights in the Game.
C. Compliance with Rules of Conduct You agree to observe and abide by the Rules of Conduct as may be amended by CCP from time to time. The current version of the Rules of Conduct may be viewed at http://www.eve-online.com/pnp/terms.asp, and are incorporated in the EULA by reference.
It is pretty straight forward.
Fix Local |
Shandir
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2010.03.22 09:04:00 -
[34]
I support the idea that those things CCP explicitly considers exploits should be published. I found this thread while looking to find some definite ruling on the use of jetcans, containers, corpses, and other miscelaneous clutter being used around gates to decloak covert ships - I have heard rumour that: A) It is allowed unless you spam the area with them (at least dozens, probably 100+) enough to cause significant lag. B) It is limited to only 3 items C) It is an exploit to attempt to do this at all.
I have no idea which of these is true.
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Enzu777
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Posted - 2010.03.22 09:31:00 -
[35]
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2010.03.22 11:26:00 -
[36]
I tried asking for this earlier when the direction FW was heading became apparent, with very little luck I might add .. best of luck with a most righteous campaign.
Originally by: Magnus Orin ...But can't you guys all envision the massive increase in exploiting that would occur if CCP ever did publish such a list.
Most societies have laws against murder, speeding, robbery etc., all well documented acts, and I doubt even you believe the existence of those laws or the documentation of what they cover are actually the cause of people breaking them.
Full support.
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