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Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.12.09 15:44:00 - [31] Originally by: SencneS I'm hanging around for the new QEN, it will be a nice read with all these willful ship destructions :) It will reveal either an impact and a noticeable one, or hardly effect graphs at all. If it hardly effects the graphs you'll simply need to setup the game Cosmo :) Heck, they won't even mention it at all. Considering they are keeping track of stupid data such as number of manufacturing jobs (not numbers of units) and an arbitrary consumer price index.
SencneS Rebellion Against Big Irreversible Dinks	Posted - 2009.12.09 16:19:00 - [32] Originally by: Claire Voyant Heck, they won't even mention it at all. Considering they are keeping track of stupid data such as number of manufacturing jobs (not numbers of units) and an arbitrary consumer price index. They usually report destruction of ships though. That will see just much people where blowing up. Amarr for Life
Claire Voyant	Posted - 2009.12.09 17:39:00 - [33] Originally by: SencneS Originally by: Claire Voyant Heck, they won't even mention it at all. Considering they are keeping track of stupid data such as number of manufacturing jobs (not numbers of units) and an arbitrary consumer price index. They usually report destruction of ships though. That will see just much people where blowing up. Do you read the same QEN that I do?
Opportunity Costs Caldari	Posted - 2009.12.09 18:00:00 - [34] 6. manufacturers don't care about opportunity costs, they just sell the stuff 0.01isk cheaper than lowest current sell order in Jita 4-4. __________________________________ - Mining your own minerals doesnt drop your manufacturing costs! - Marginal earnings is what actually counts - Time is isk and enjoyment is isk aswell
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.12.09 18:43:00 - [35] Interesting readup. But it shows only that the trouble of logistics and building are still to high to be profitable at current mineral prices. And what should people do anyway with all their minerals? Especially the drone regions. But also the new mineral depots in the improved 0.0 systems after Dominion will increase (high end) ore supply. Though it is still interesting to see that the basket did move that slowly if at all.
Cromzor Caldari Agent-Orange	Posted - 2009.12.09 18:51:00 - [36] Does this mean that you've stopped production?
wallenbergaren	Posted - 2009.12.09 22:55:00 - [37] Edited by: wallenbergaren on 09/12/2009 23:05:38 Now I, too, will print ISK until the market catches up which it apparently never will Yay! btw, what ME etc. did your BPCs have?
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.12.10 00:11:00 - [38] At least ME20. If you want to make money I still have some Rokh's for sale at 113.5M ISK each. You would make 2M ISK per ship via the insurance destruction route. I currently have about 200 Rokh's available, that would be 400M profits if someone wants to buy them.
kyrieee Psykotic Meat Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.12.10 00:26:00 - [39] This was a very interesting read Thanks for typing it up and posting it
Dethmourne Silvermane Gallente SRS Industries SRS.	Posted - 2009.12.10 02:26:00 - [40] BTW i'm buying all gallente battleships at 2.5m under insurance en masse if anybody wants to build them but cba to blow them up. Originally by: "Aristotle" We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit.
Lui Kai Better Than You	Posted - 2009.12.10 02:55:00 - [41] Originally by: Cromzor Does this mean that you've stopped production? I did. Suicide production, anyway. While the basket hasn't moved much, it's moved enough to make the margins on suicide too much work for the juice, to me. ----------------
Phersephone Caldari Stormlord Battleforce Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.12.10 08:37:00 - [42] Cosmoray, i'll take your rokh's convo me in game. will be on after 4pm game time. Phersephone
Sugar Jugs Juggalicious	Posted - 2009.12.10 09:06:00 - [43] Quote: 3. RF Freight (Red Frog run by Locin WeEda) is easily the best *public* freight service in Eve. They handled 5-10B ISK contracts requiring 20-40 freighter loads in 24 hr periods easily. There are many like it, some public, most not. :)
ropnes	Posted - 2009.12.10 13:00:00 - [44] Any particular reason you chose to build Rokhs?
Andron Blaxcor	Posted - 2009.12.10 13:52:00 - [45] Originally by: cosmoray With all this huge uptake in minerals I thought the market would easily move. Well it didn't, so I went public hoping to push the market further with more entrants. After going public the mineral basket started to move but not by very much. After all the work the mineral basket currently stands at 110.2 which is still under insurance. I FAILED Did you really fail? Before your scheme supply as outpacing demand and prices were falling. You (and others doing the same) increased demand and halted this fall in prices. You made the prices higher than they would have been without you. Like you, I am surprised that such a large consumption of minerals didn't cause enough demand for prices to not only stop but start to climb as well. Interesting read, thanks for taking the time.
ropnes	Posted - 2009.12.10 14:06:00 - [46] pyerite has climbed a lot
Veritech knight Envoy Corps	Posted - 2009.12.10 15:42:00 - [47] A+, very interesting, would read again :) I knew about insurance fraud (have been paying 30m a dominix on buy orders, yay), but my hat's off to you sir for taking it to this scale o/ vk
Dylan Chan Gallente The Maverick Navy IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.10 19:18:00 - [48] ok.. But you had a big operation.. if your only making 4 mil above the mineral costs, how much did you pay to the haulers and the miners? Also What is your time worth to you? Nice read though.. -DC
Kwint Sommer Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.10 19:39:00 - [49] Originally by: Dylan Chan Also What is your time worth to you? You clearly haven't thought this through too carefully. Purchase most of what you need directly off the market, pay people to haul/mine everything else and create a few simple macros and at no more than an hour a day you could produce thousands of ships a week and destroy a few hundred a day yourself contracting the rest out at a modest profit. You would easily hit 500M a day and at a single hour per day that works out to a nice income. In fact, I doubt it would be all that hard to hit a billion+/hour with a large enough economy of scale.
Mephistocles Red Frog Investments Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2009.12.10 19:40:00 - [50] Originally by: Kwint Sommer You clearly haven't thought this through too carefully. Purchase most of what you need directly off the market, pay people to haul/mine everything else and create a few simple macros and at no more than an hour a day you could produce thousands of ships a week and destroy a few hundred a day yourself contracting the rest out at a modest profit. You would easily hit 500M a day and at a single hour per day that works out to a nice income. In fact, I doubt it would be all that hard to hit a billion+/hour with a large enough economy of scale. Macros???
Kwint Sommer Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.10 20:23:00 - [51] Originally by: Mephistocles Originally by: Kwint Sommer You clearly haven't thought this through too carefully. Purchase most of what you need directly off the market, pay people to haul/mine everything else and create a few simple macros and at no more than an hour a day you could produce thousands of ships a week and destroy a few hundred a day yourself contracting the rest out at a modest profit. You would easily hit 500M a day and at a single hour per day that works out to a nice income. In fact, I doubt it would be all that hard to hit a billion+/hour with a large enough economy of scale. Macros??? Are you confused by the word "macros" or simply the implementation/legality of them? If it's the first case then may I introduce you to google's very useful "define" function. Linkage What do you know? The very first result is our definition. What does that macro do? It automates the process of docking, assembling and boarding a ship, buying insurance, undocking and self destructing. Basically you just click through the process once, record your mouse inputs to a script, add in random variables to make each execution unique and then put in short delays and redundancy of clicking to account for any lag or other unanticipated client responses and suddenly you can destroy a couple hundreds ships per day without even being at your computer. Each instance will be unique and the only thing you're manipulating is the mouse so it's the definition of undetectable. Furthermore, CCP allows certain levels of automation such as that offered by the macro functions on the G15 keyboard. This could arguably be included in that and even if it's not there's strong historical precedent for CCP accepting these sorts of things. See macro miners. To the mods: I sincerely believe that this does not constitute discussion of an exploit given it's similarity to the officially sanctioned G15's functions. If it does cross the line, my apologies, and I will happily remove the statement.
Mephistocles Red Frog Investments Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2009.12.10 20:52:00 - [52] Originally by: Kwint Sommer Are you confused by the word "macros" or simply the implementation/legality of them? If it's the first case then may I introduce you to google's very useful "define" function. Linkage What do you know? The very first result is our definition. What does that macro do? It automates the process of docking, assembling and boarding a ship, buying insurance, undocking and self destructing. Basically you just click through the process once, record your mouse inputs to a script, add in random variables to make each execution unique and then put in short delays and redundancy of clicking to account for any lag or other unanticipated client responses and suddenly you can destroy a couple hundreds ships per day without even being at your computer. Each instance will be unique and the only thing you're manipulating is the mouse so it's the definition of undetectable. Furthermore, CCP allows certain levels of automation such as that offered by the macro functions on the G15 keyboard. This could arguably be included in that and even if it's not there's strong historical precedent for CCP accepting these sorts of things. See macro miners. To the mods: I sincerely believe that this does not constitute discussion of an exploit given it's similarity to the officially sanctioned G15's functions. If it does cross the line, my apologies, and I will happily remove the statement. I'm well aware of the definition and your condescending tone is quite humorous. I think it's somewhat irresponsible to suggest people set up macros to automate tasks without first knowing if it is sanctioned by CCP. EULA, section 7.a.(3): (3) You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. Your argument might hold some water, but then you go on to say that it could work even while you aren't at your computer definitely makes that an exploit.
Vaerah Vahrokha Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.12.10 21:12:00 - [53] Quote: What does that macro do? It automates the process of docking, assembling and boarding a ship, buying insurance, undocking and self destructing. Basically you just click through the process once, record your mouse inputs to a script, add in random variables to make each execution unique and then put in short delays and redundancy of clicking to account for any lag or other unanticipated client responses and suddenly you can destroy a couple hundreds ships per day without even being at your computer. Each instance will be unique and the only thing you're manipulating is the mouse so it's the definition of undetectable. Furthermore, CCP allows certain levels of automation such as that offered by the macro functions on the G15 keyboard. This could arguably be included in that and even if it's not there's strong historical precedent for CCP accepting these sorts of things. See macro miners. All of this is just beyond the thresold to be considered a macroer and thus be banned. Just beyond, but beyond. - Auditing and consulting Before asking for investors, please read http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
Spacemanc	Posted - 2009.12.11 01:40:00 - [54] Edited by: Spacemanc on 11/12/2009 01:40:42 Interesting thread Have you considered placing buy orders for certain T1 items to reprocess ( ie buy orders set at the value of the reprocessed value of the items) - this will save the cost of paying people to haul minerals for you? Maybe this could increase profits.
Lui Kai Better Than You	Posted - 2009.12.11 03:07:00 - [55] Edited by: Lui Kai on 11/12/2009 03:08:08 Originally by: Dylan Chan ...What is your time worth to you? From this venture: I figure my profit at a hair over 100b, for an average of 2 hours invested per day - so my time was worth about 833m/hr, to me. Not top of the line, I grant, but better than most people value their time by a fair margin. ----------------
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.12.11 03:21:00 - [56] My time. I work based at home so I am logged in a lot, and in the SCC channel. 1. Now Cosmoray sat at Jita putting in a few very large buy orders daily, which I didn't micro-manage 2. Arranged hauler contracts to move to production location 3. Had multiple mining contracts drop off at MY production location 4. Purchased large numbers of BPC's off contracts in Jita, and a BPC delivery service and used my Rokh BPO 5. Using 3 ALT's put a job in after every 30 hrs for each. 10 runs per ALT of max run BPC 6. Selling Rokh's through contacts and SCC channel and on MD Total time I would say 20 hours of the month dedicated, and 10 hours soft time chatting in channels and talking to people. Time invested = 30 hrs Total Return = 97B profit Hourly rate = 3B+ per hour. Was my time worth it, yes obviously. Just like Keyser Soze. People were working for me without knowledge that they were working for me. I rarely work with the same people for very long, and they never know who they're working for One cannot be betrayed if one has no people.
Vasta Magna Yarex Shipyards	Posted - 2009.12.11 04:17:00 - [57] I was working on minimal capital and did most of my own labor and the profit/hr ratio was still quite nice. I was initially getting about 9 mil per ship and it tapered off until about 4.5m per I mostly stopped production. I destroyed about 30 ships an hour with two characters (4 mins per - not rushing). 9m x 30 = 270m / hr best rate 4.5m x 30 = 135m / hr worst rate If I cut it in half to allow for time spent on freightering mins one jump from Jita, that's still 67.5 - 135m / hr. Better than mining Arkonor. So even on a much smaller and more labor intensive scale than cosmo and Lui are talking it was worth the time compared to other consistently repeatable ways of making ISK.
Kwint Sommer Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.12.11 04:52:00 - [58] Originally by: Mephistocles I'm well aware of the definition and your condescending tone is quite humorous. I think it's somewhat irresponsible to suggest people set up macros to automate tasks without first knowing if it is sanctioned by CCP. EULA, section 7.a.(3): (3) You may not use macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game. Your argument might hold some water, but then you go on to say that it could work even while you aren't at your computer definitely makes that an exploit. The condescension was prompted by your one word response, it left a fair bit open to interpretation. At any rate, reading that statement in the EULA further convinces me that such a macro is not prohibited. It neither facilitates acquisition of currency at an accelerated rate nor does it rewrite, modify or in any way use game data to do anything. It just reproduces mouse movement much the same way the G15 reproduces key strokes. Admittedly, having it run for hours on end without being at the computer makes it sound like a violation but it is not inherently and furthermore because it fails to pull any data from the client or do anything dynamic it is highly susceptible to failure from things like getting convoed so while it will work without you it runs best with supervision, much like sitting in a L4 with drones out.
Pink Kiwi	Posted - 2009.12.11 04:53:00 - [59] Originally by: cosmoray 5. Using 3 ALT's put a job in after every 30 hrs for each. 10 runs per ALT of max run BPC Something isn't quite making sense with that. If you were only using 3 alts with 10 build slots each, the most that could be produced within 30 days is 6,990 ships. Minimum number of build slots needed for 13,600 battleships in 30 days is 59. Could you clarify how it actually worked? Was it two groups of 3 Alts?
cosmoray Bella Vista Holdings Corp	Posted - 2009.12.11 05:23:00 - [60] Edited by: cosmoray on 11/12/2009 05:25:19 Originally by: Pink Kiwi Originally by: cosmoray 5. Using 3 ALT's put a job in after every 30 hrs for each. 10 runs per ALT of max run BPC Something isn't quite making sense with that. If you were only using 3 alts with 10 build slots each, the most that could be produced within 30 days is 6,990 ships. Minimum number of build slots needed for 13,600 battleships in 30 days is 59. Could you clarify how it actually worked? Was it two groups of 3 Alts? Multiple accounts ftw. I have 6 industrial toons with at least 30M SP's. Plus a few others. note: Even when not running this program I have mineral contracts that use up at least 20B in minerals a week.

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