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War Dec reform

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Hegbard	Posted - 2009.12.08 16:27:00 - [31] Originally by: Konarr In reading all of the backlash on the new NPC corp tax rate, it seems the main objection is players use NPC corps because they do not enjoy PVP and/or the prospect of war. I understand protection isn't realistically free but then again neither is it realistic to assume police would allow a gang war to ensue in the middle of the city simply because some gangs formally announced their intentions to fight. EVE is so unrealistic!
Malcolm Cree	Posted - 2009.12.08 16:51:00 - [32] If you think the war dec game mechanics are somehow balanced and fair, then I would argue that you've never experienced being on the "shut down your corp" end of a war dec. You have medium sized corps preying on small corps, in an attempt just to get them to disband. Do you really think that is the intended game mechanic? People go into a childish mocking tone and get all "aww did you get bwowed up while mining?", but I argue that its these morons deccing high sec corps that are the real cowards. They're to afraid to fight in REAL pvp, they go after carebares. This game mechanic is broken, plain and simple. It highly favors aggressors, and at the very least, doesn't cost enough isk.
Cloora APEX Unlimited APEX Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.12.08 16:56:00 - [33] Originally by: S'Way First off - Concord doesn't provide protection (as the OP said) - they provide consequences. This is not 100% accurate. Consequences provide a certain amount of protection. IRL you don't have cops guarding you like personal bodyguards. Someone COULD come and punch you in the face or worse and be able to perform the act. The Police and the Justice system provide the consequences. This known consequence to these deeds is the protection. It isn't guarenteed but it works in RL and in EVE it works to some extent too. We have popped a Ice Mining Hulk in high sec because he was in a corp we didn't like. No dec we just suicided because we wanted to. We lost our ships and took a pretty healthy sec status hit but a +5.0 is worth anything so who cares. But for the most part people will only suicide you for some reason. The reason maybe as little as the lulz or as much as you have uber loot in your flimsy armored cargohold. Either way I like EVE's system. War decs do need some sort of redo but not like the OP says. More like what Tippia says. I like that.
Spacemanc	Posted - 2009.12.08 16:59:00 - [34] Edited by: Spacemanc on 08/12/2009 16:59:27 Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Eve have for six years been all about PvP Originally by: Shade Millith You pay 11% corp tax for immunity to Wardecs in a PVP centric game. Originally by: S'Way EvE is a PvP game, you consent to pvp whenever you log in I thought that Eve was a sandbox where you play the game that you want to play - that may or may not include PvP. Just because you play PvP all the time doesn't mean that everyone does.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:04:00 - [35] Originally by: Spacemanc I thought that Eve was a sandbox where you play the game that you want to play - that may or may not include PvP. Yes, but it also means that if someone else chooses to PvP you, there should be nothing to stop them. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Spacemanc	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:10:00 - [36] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Spacemanc I thought that Eve was a sandbox where you play the game that you want to play - that may or may not include PvP. Yes, but it also means that if someone else chooses to PvP you, there should be nothing to stop them. Surely its only fair that it works both ways? If I choose not to PvP, there should be something to stop them? Maybe the traders in EvE think that PvP should be stopped to make life for traders easier? Why should your playing style be forced on other people who prefer to play the game a different way to you?
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:13:00 - [37] Originally by: Spacemanc Surely its only fair that it works both ways? Maybe, but fairness isn't particularly sandboxy. Quote: If I choose not to PvP, there should be something to stop them? If you choose not to PvP, you die. Sooner or later, they grow tied of killing you and leave. Quote: Maybe the traders in EvE think that PvP should be stopped to make life for traders easier? No, because the traders in EVE understand that their profession would cease to exist without PvP. Quote: Why should your playing style be forced on other people who prefer to play the game a different way to you? Because otherwise, it wouldn't be a sandbox. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Spacemanc	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:20:00 - [38] My point was that Eve is about people following different careers - in fact thats what attracts me to Eve. You cant have PvP without ships and mods - you cant have mods without missions and manufacturing - you cant have manufacturing without research and mining. No-one is saying that PvP'ers should be forced to mine, or research or manufacture or run missions, so why do the PvP'ers want to force all the other "professions" into PvP so much? Theres plenty of other people to fight if you want to fight - let the others play the game they want to play.
Barakkus Caelestis Iudicium	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:27:00 - [39] Originally by: Konarr In reading all of the backlash on the new NPC corp tax rate, it seems the main objection is players use NPC corps because they do not enjoy PVP and/or the prospect of war. I understand protection isn't realistically free but then again neither is it realistic to assume police would allow a gang war to ensue in the middle of the city simply because some gangs formally announced their intentions to fight. The wardec rules in Empire drive people to NPC corps in the first place and are not realistic. Wardecs can be used as a bully tactic and the only real refuge players have from PVP is to stay in empire and belong to NPC corps. This tax offends me much less if the wardec in empire mechanics were also adjusted to maintain the casual player balance Dominion has upset. Notrly, if you go solo and don't run your mouth, most of the time you won't get dec'd due to the fact it's really boring to try and camp a single person. Hard to hunt them down and be on at the same time they are...usually people don't bother with 1 man corps due to lack of targets.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:29:00 - [40] Originally by: Spacemanc My point was that Eve is about people following different careers - in fact thats what attracts me to Eve. You cant have PvP without ships and mods - you cant have mods without missions and manufacturing - you cant have manufacturing without research and mining. No-one is saying that PvP'ers should be forced to mine, or research or manufacture or run missions, so why do the PvP'ers want to force all the other "professions" into PvP so much? Theres plenty of other people to fight if you want to fight - let the others play the game they want to play. Actually, if you chose not to PVP (in this PVP oriented game) then you also have the option to become good at evasion. I have seen more than a few aspiring Han Solo's out there in their blockade runners deftly avoiding those who have war dec'd them. You can play the corp shell game, or step up to the challenge and outfly your opponents, or simply pay the pittance if you want to avoid combat at all costs. Of course, you could always form an alliance with others in similar circumstances, or hire mercs, or any number of more challenging and entertaining ways to respond to a war dec... but to each his own. You have a multitude of options available to you, this tax is only a slight balancing of one of those options. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.

Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:33:00 - [41] Originally by: Spacemanc You cant have PvP without ships and mods - you cant have mods without missions and manufacturing - you cant have manufacturing without research and mining. Actually, PvP exists just fine in EVE without ships and mods – everything you do (except running missions) is subject to PvP in some form. Having mods is not reliant on missions, but it does require manufacturing, which is subject to PvP. Research and mining are subject to PvP as well. Quote: No-one is saying that PvP'ers should be forced to mine, or research or manufacture or run missions, so why do the PvP'ers want to force all the other "professions" into PvP so much? Actually, the ones who really benefit from missions are the combat pilots. The rest is already done mainly by PvPers. Quote: Theres plenty of other people to fight if you want to fight - let the others play the game they want to play. The problem is that this assumes that those others have no effect on those who want to fight, which is not the case. What you suggest is entirely reasonable if you were to accept that it worked both ways – that carebears no longer affected the PvPers. This would mean that if you flagged your character as "carebear", you would be barred from using the market, barred from manufacturing, barred from mining, barred from exploration… all you could ever do would be to run missions, never sell what you earn and never spend your income on anything. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Rellik B00n Minmatar Lethal Death Squad	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:34:00 - [42] oh. Another one of these threads. I came expecting game enhancement ideas and was disappointed. In short, for the umpteenth time: There are so many War-dec avoidance methods its not even funny. Anyone asking for a change to the system to make it harder to wage war is apparently un-aware of this. I like some of the positive change ideas in this thread, the ones that still involve fighting. Everything else is just godamn silly. + LDSkill+hireLDS
Lady Katrana Wild Jokers	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:39:00 - [43] Originally by: Konarr neither is it realistic to assume police would allow a gang war to ensue in the middle of the city simply because some gangs formally announced their intentions to fight. Because the police being bribed to look the other way while gangs shoot each other up is totally un-realistic and has never occurred irl You also have to remember this is the space future and these gangs killing each other are immortals.
D3F4ULT Gallente	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:41:00 - [44] I say no. Works as intended. EVE isn't realistic.
Malcolm Cree	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:41:00 - [45] Originally by: Rellik B00n oh. Another one of these threads. I came expecting game enhancement ideas and was disappointed. In short, for the umpteenth time: There are so many War-dec avoidance methods its not even funny. Anyone asking for a change to the system to make it harder to wage war is apparently un-aware of this. I like some of the positive change ideas in this thread, the ones that still involve fighting. Everything else is just godamn silly. Please explain to me how the war dec system makes sense as a game mechanic at all. You have groups of pvp pilots going after high sec corps, without any danger to themselves. Its not even logical from a story standpoint. The purpose of war decs is obviously so real disputes can be settled, so people can't run and hide to high sec, etc. However it is only being used as a greifing method currently.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:50:00 - [46] Originally by: Malcolm Cree Please explain to me how the war dec system makes sense as a game mechanic at all. Very simple: it's another way to pay the aggression cost in highsec – the other way is to lose your ship to CONCORD. ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:53:00 - [47] Originally by: Malcolm Cree Originally by: Rellik B00n oh. Another one of these threads. I came expecting game enhancement ideas and was disappointed. In short, for the umpteenth time: There are so many War-dec avoidance methods its not even funny. Anyone asking for a change to the system to make it harder to wage war is apparently un-aware of this. I like some of the positive change ideas in this thread, the ones that still involve fighting. Everything else is just godamn silly. Please explain to me how the war dec system makes sense as a game mechanic at all. You have groups of pvp pilots going after high sec corps, without any danger to themselves. Its not even logical from a story standpoint. The purpose of war decs is obviously so real disputes can be settled, so people can't run and hide to high sec, etc. However it is only being used as a greifing method currently. If you ***** them, do they not bleed? Honestly, quit having such a helpless victim mentality. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
small chimp	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:55:00 - [48] i heard rumors that ccp is going to boost corp hopping?
Lady Katrana Wild Jokers	Posted - 2009.12.08 17:58:00 - [49] Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Malcolm Cree Originally by: Rellik B00n oh. Another one of these threads. I came expecting game enhancement ideas and was disappointed. In short, for the umpteenth time: There are so many War-dec avoidance methods its not even funny. Anyone asking for a change to the system to make it harder to wage war is apparently un-aware of this. I like some of the positive change ideas in this thread, the ones that still involve fighting. Everything else is just godamn silly. Please explain to me how the war dec system makes sense as a game mechanic at all. You have groups of pvp pilots going after high sec corps, without any danger to themselves. Its not even logical from a story standpoint. The purpose of war decs is obviously so real disputes can be settled, so people can't run and hide to high sec, etc. However it is only being used as a greifing method currently. If you ***** them, do they not bleed? Honestly, quit having such a helpless victim mentality. Ranger 1 you forgot the mechanic that makes the recipients of war decs unable to activate any offensive modules.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:05:00 - [50] Originally by: Lady Katrana Originally by: Ranger 1 Originally by: Malcolm Cree Originally by: Rellik B00n oh. Another one of these threads. I came expecting game enhancement ideas and was disappointed. In short, for the umpteenth time: There are so many War-dec avoidance methods its not even funny. Anyone asking for a change to the system to make it harder to wage war is apparently un-aware of this. I like some of the positive change ideas in this thread, the ones that still involve fighting. Everything else is just godamn silly. Please explain to me how the war dec system makes sense as a game mechanic at all. You have groups of pvp pilots going after high sec corps, without any danger to themselves. Its not even logical from a story standpoint. The purpose of war decs is obviously so real disputes can be settled, so people can't run and hide to high sec, etc. However it is only being used as a greifing method currently. If you ***** them, do they not bleed? Honestly, quit having such a helpless victim mentality. Ranger 1 you forgot the mechanic that makes the recipients of war decs unable to activate any offensive modules. Doh, you are right. At least CCP could nerf the mechanic that makes it impossible for communicate and/or organize with others for mutual defense while under a war dec. Thats really the main problem as I see it. So much for this being a sand box. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.

Kitimortoa	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:06:00 - [51] Originally by: Malcolm Cree Originally by: Rellik B00n oh. Another one of these threads. I came expecting game enhancement ideas and was disappointed. In short, for the umpteenth time: There are so many War-dec avoidance methods its not even funny. Anyone asking for a change to the system to make it harder to wage war is apparently un-aware of this. I like some of the positive change ideas in this thread, the ones that still involve fighting. Everything else is just godamn silly. Please explain to me how the war dec system makes sense as a game mechanic at all. You have groups of pvp pilots going after high sec corps, without any danger to themselves. Its not even logical from a story standpoint. The purpose of war decs is obviously so real disputes can be settled, so people can't run and hide to high sec, etc. However it is only being used as a greifing method currently. Thing is, EVE is a PVP game, if people didn't want to pvp at all, then they shouldn't have started playing.
Phony v2 Caldari Unknown Soldiers Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:07:00 - [52] you fail to understand that we are capsuleers. Concord isn't going to 'let' us kill each other? We are the elite. ______________________________________________ Yes? You, the idiot in the back, with the dumb question?
Spacemanc	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:16:00 - [53] Originally by: Kitimortoa Thing is, EVE is a PVP game, if people didn't want to pvp at all, then they shouldn't have started playing. Eve isn't just a PvP game. If you have a problem with people not wanting to PvP, then you shouldn't have started playing.
Orakkus Minmatar m3 Corp Paxton Federation	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:20:00 - [54] Originally by: Malcolm Cree Please explain to me how the war dec system makes sense as a game mechanic at all. You have groups of pvp pilots going after high sec corps, without any danger to themselves. Its not even logical from a story standpoint. The purpose of war decs is obviously so real disputes can be settled, so people can't run and hide to high sec, etc. However it is only being used as a greifing method currently. Wow. That's the biggest bunch of BS I've heard in a long, long time. Without any danger to themselves? Since when? Eve invented the phrase, "Carebears with teeth." and "Industrialists with teeth." Since the concept seems difficult for you to grasp (must be a troll..), I'll break it down for ya. Those modules that you mine minerals for, that you sell for profits.. can be put on ships (you know, the other things you sell for profit).. and those modules can be used to shoot other ships.. especially the ones that war dec you. Next, you get make friends with people (WOAH! What a concept in an MMO, right?) who might be willing to help you for isk, or better yet, just because they like ya. Shoot, you might even win if you think smart. As far as the "not even logical from a story standpoint" garbage comment.. the "evil PVP'ers going after the poor, innocent "good" guys" concept is essentially the basis for almost EVERY Sci-Fi story there is. The purpose of war decs is to.. tada, have player corps fight each other. Where you got the idea of it being used to solve "real disputes" in an internet spaceship game is beyond me and smacks of utter arrogance and ignorance. Just like real life, these War deccers want your Nikes, and they're going to shoot you for them. Now, you can EASILY avoid war decs in so many ways both preventative and protective that it would require one to be blind, deaf, and dumb to not see that. You can move corps, you can move your operations, you can stay in station, you can run around on an alt, you can join an alliance, you can play something else, and the list goes on and on. And its not like a wardec last forever.. only a week! Dear God, man! Go outside, get some exercise.. smell the roses! I only do diplomancy because I haven't found you.. yet.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:25:00 - [55] Originally by: Phony v2 you fail to understand that we are capsuleers. Concord isn't going to 'let' us kill each other? We are the elite. Perhaps this strikes close to the core of it as well. Many self avowed carebears view themselves as humble little hobbit leathersmiths, quietly making high quality sets of armor for the glory seeking warriors. Why should other warriors come and destroy their shop and steal their buckles? They view themselves as insignificant crafters, of no real importance, an innocent... and anyone that is aggressive towards them is just a bully. The fail to realize that in EVE they are a virtual demi-god. Immortal... unkillable by normal methods. In practical effect an unstoppable entity. Powerful... controling wealth on a daily basis that 99.9 percent of the rest of humanity can only dream about. Influential... whether pursuing agent missions, or trading, or mining, or even hauling your every action can have a dramtic effect on the economy. Which in turn affects the lives of billions. Deadly... if you so chose you can create and master the most destructive machines and weaponry the Universe has ever seen. Now, from this perspective, take a look at yourself. How can an entity such as this, a capsuleer, expect to escape the notice of his peers. Chances are high that you WILL be the target of aggression from time to time, and while you are not forced to fight you will be forced to find a way to deal with it. Not even Odin or Zeus could control the aggressive tendancies of their demi-god children, what makes you think that Concord or an Empire government is going to have better luck. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Kitimortoa	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:25:00 - [56] Originally by: Spacemanc Originally by: Kitimortoa Thing is, EVE is a PVP game, if people didn't want to pvp at all, then they shouldn't have started playing. Eve isn't just a PvP game. If you have a problem with people not wanting to PvP, then you shouldn't have started playing. Wrong, EVE is a PVP game, it's stupid carebears like you who assume it isn't.
D3F4ULT Gallente	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:29:00 - [57] Originally by: Kitimortoa Originally by: Spacemanc Originally by: Kitimortoa Thing is, EVE is a PVP game, if people didn't want to pvp at all, then they shouldn't have started playing. Eve isn't just a PvP game. If you have a problem with people not wanting to PvP, then you shouldn't have started playing. Wrong, EVE is a PVP game, it's stupid carebears like you who assume it isn't. Admits to never engaging in PvP with this account that's existed for over a year. Therefore can confirm, "Eve is not JUST a PvP game."
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:30:00 - [58] Edited by: Tippia on 08/12/2009 18:31:14 Originally by: Spacemanc Eve isn't just a PvP game. There is exactly one activity in EVE that is not subject to PvP: accepting and running missions. Hell, it's not even a whole activity – it's just part of one. So sure, it's not 100% PvP, just 99.5… Originally by: D3F4ULT Admits to never engaging in PvP with this account that's existed for over a year. Wow. Colour me impressed. I sure couldn't make it a whole year in EVE without, say, using the market… ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Synvaat	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:37:00 - [59] I enjoy how everyone is bashing on carebears as afraid of PVP and that only big corps hitting little corps is a problem. I have no issue with the defending corp docking up or breaking up when they get pwned by a wardec. It means PVP happened, or carebears cutting their losses. The bigger problem is the 5 or fewer man corps. They wardec the biggest carebear corps they can find, then dock up as soon as there is anything remotely dangerous. They don't have to PVP at all but they get full control over being at war for a cost that doesn't matter at all. So all you who just say "EVE is PVP" should go tell these guys to HTFU and undock if they want to be at war. (obvious alt post is obvious)
Spacemanc	Posted - 2009.12.08 18:38:00 - [60] Originally by: Tippia Wow. Colour me impressed. I sure couldn't make it a whole year in EVE without, say, using the marketà You know exactly what we're talking about when we talk about PvP - no need to twist words just because you are fighting a lost argument. A large part of the Eve player base does not take part in PvP fighting, unless griefers abuse a game mechanic like war-decs, to kill them in supposedly hi-sec space.



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