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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 48 post(s) |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
25
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Posted - 2012.06.22 17:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
michael boltonIII wrote:Haha, these are the moments that really show that really show that some people are playing the game on a different level. I have prepared my tear collection equipment and wait with baited breadth for highsec players to commence filling my vats.
Level?
This is just a variation of a basic theme that has been around in EVE for like forever...raising its head now and then when mechanics change or new items/game play is introduced. I am very sure many such schemes on a much smaller scale have been going on.
It was the first question I asked myself when I saw the mechanics....WTF...it is just so obvious the system is flawed and easily rigged. But you need to be extremely rich to make big bucks from it or very patient and hope no one else finds out for a long time (good luck with that).
The obvious glaring hole in FW is that both sides are controlled by players and the rewards come form NPC. Team up and you got a win and that is exactly what goons did. All they had to do is trick the NPC into using a ridicules price!
Goons beat the C-team that is CCP when it comes to insight, thinking and mechanics (they got a terrible record). SInce this is a PvP sandbox as all the big mouth 0.0 players have always claimed. Why not nullify all their illicit gains? If that is impossible, just take the 100b form each player and ban them forever afterwards, so they cannot buy new characters (many will have done so already no doubt).
Either way, CCP must act, else this game is rigged for eternity, with so much wealth at the hands of so few that are basically a form a ISK cartel. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
26
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Posted - 2012.06.22 18:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:
Stories of people able to completely own the game like this ARE why people join.
truth, it's why i joined the game.
Plenty more people will be disgusted by being cheated out and some of those will leave. I cant see your case as an argument to support scamming NPC and thereby making many other efforts in EVE pointless! |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
26
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Posted - 2012.06.22 18:45:00 -
[3] - Quote
I wonder if the EULA mentions anything about cheating NPC...which is what happened in this case. The same could theoretically be done with insurance, be it that those are based on mineral value and that is not a small market you can over time just set the price without anyone noticing it. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
27
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Posted - 2012.06.22 19:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Aryth wrote:Tallian Saotome wrote:Inspiration wrote:I wonder if the EULA mentions anything about cheating NPC...which is what happened in this case. The same could theoretically be done with insurance, be it that those are based on mineral value and that is not a small market you can over time just set the price without anyone noticing it. oooo.... I see a way to finally make use of the EAS. It was done with insurance for months in the past. Insurance Fraud on a huge scale occurred for many months when mineral prices were lower than CCP payouts. So there is definitely some precedent for this. I know. I self destructed a few hundred iteron IIIs as a noob to make some easy isk to buy a mission domi with. e: I was referring to manipulating the price of EAS if insurance gets linked to market price 
That and this thread really makes a case to remove insurance from the game altogether, as quite a few have arued over in the past. If someone wants insurance let the corp deal with it via mechanism or free market parties. Then if you loose ship after ship in pointless ways, your fee would go trough the roof or you just get plain rejected.
It would probably have the majority of the 0.0 folk go like cry baby, but it would return meaning to pvp victory and loss! Lets see how bad-ass those peeps really are :) |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
27
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Posted - 2012.06.22 19:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Inspiration wrote:That and this thread really makes a case to remove insurance from the game altogether, as quite a few have arued over in the past. If someone wants insurance let the corp deal with it via mechanism or free market parties. Then if you loose ship after ship in pointless ways, your fee would go trough the roof or you just get plain rejected.
It would probably have the majority of the 0.0 folk go like cry baby, but it would return meaning to pvp victory and loss! Lets see how bad-ass those peeps really are :) Insurance had nothing to do with what we were doing, you know.
Duh.....but if you look closely, the core of the whole matter is using market manipulation to get NPC favors! FW made it extra easy and lucrative as playing both sites gives extra control over the outcome! The same thing could be done with insurance to a lesser extend as that too is rooted in in-game market statistics. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
27
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Posted - 2012.06.22 20:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Inspiration wrote:corestwo wrote:Inspiration wrote:That and this thread really makes a case to remove insurance from the game altogether, as quite a few have arued over in the past. If someone wants insurance let the corp deal with it via mechanism or free market parties. Then if you loose ship after ship in pointless ways, your fee would go trough the roof or you just get plain rejected.
It would probably have the majority of the 0.0 folk go like cry baby, but it would return meaning to pvp victory and loss! Lets see how bad-ass those peeps really are :) Insurance had nothing to do with what we were doing, you know. Duh.....but if you look closely, the core of the whole matter is using market manipulation to get NPC favors! FW made it extra easy and lucrative as playing both sites gives extra control over the outcome! The same thing could be done with insurance to a lesser extend as that too is rooted in in-game market statistics. It already has been, and that caused the insurance nerf. New to EVE are we?
No, but you are not too bright are you?
It is actually the nerf that introduced the market manipulation!
Before it was just to high a payout set by CCP, now it is base don market statistics.
The higher the market prices the more payout!
Go ti? |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
27
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Posted - 2012.06.22 20:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't.
That is a pretty single sided view on the matter.
If you had just proven the issue and not abuse it to no end, it would not been punished don't you think?
And in some way I think goons got off light here. Remember the deal with moon goo being produced out of nothing (i forgot the details)? The players in corporations involved in that, all got banned!
Scamming player is perfectly fine in this game, but NOT ALL scamming NPC so it seems. It would be good if CCP highlighted where the line is precisely. That way you would know for sure how far you can go!
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Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
27
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Posted - 2012.06.22 20:44:00 -
[8] - Quote
Arrgthepirate wrote:Inspiration wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. That is a pretty single sided view on the matter. If you had just proven the issue and not abuse it to no end, it would not been punished don't you think? And in some way I think goons got off light here. Remember the deal with moon goo being produced out of nothing (i forgot the details)? The players in corporations involved in that, all got banned! Scamming player is perfectly fine in this game, but NOT ALL scamming NPC so it seems. It would be good if CCP highlighted where the line is precisely. That way you would know for sure how far you can go! Nothing was produced from nothing. THey spent real isk to acquire assets. Get your facts right.
I never said you produced something from nothing, you are mistaken me for someone else that run that argument. You did however gained excess LP that was convertible to goods and you did it by scamming the system. In this instance trough market manipulation (but not manipulating players), where with the pos example i think it was a bug with the effect of also flooding the market with stuff that realistically should not have been there in those quantities.
SO before you accuse me of something, and I know your pissed right now, get your facts straight indeed!
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Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
27
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Posted - 2012.06.22 21:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
Xython wrote:Inspiration wrote:Arrgthepirate wrote:Inspiration wrote:Aryth wrote:CCP has now gone and nuked a ton of assets on our accounts. Meaning, we are losing wealth we had previous to this. Wow. But the message is clear. If you want to abuse something, you do not report it. As someone who tried to work with CCP, my advice to anyone in the future is. Don't. That is a pretty single sided view on the matter. If you had just proven the issue and not abuse it to no end, it would not been punished don't you think? And in some way I think goons got off light here. Remember the deal with moon goo being produced out of nothing (i forgot the details)? The players in corporations involved in that, all got banned! Scamming player is perfectly fine in this game, but NOT ALL scamming NPC so it seems. It would be good if CCP highlighted where the line is precisely. That way you would know for sure how far you can go! Nothing was produced from nothing. THey spent real isk to acquire assets. Get your facts right. I never said you produced something from nothing, you are mistaken me for someone else that run that argument. You did however gained excess LP that was convertible to goods and you did it by scamming the system. In this instance trough market manipulation (but not manipulating players), where with the pos example i think it was a bug with the effect of also flooding the market with stuff that realistically should not have been there in those quantities. SO before you accuse me of something, and I know your pissed right now, get your facts straight indeed! "excess LP" = something from nothing. Otherwise, it wouldn't be "excess", right?
That is one way to look at it, but its not producing which was the argument being made to me. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
27
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Posted - 2012.06.22 22:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
asd3452 wrote:Better Than You wrote:By goons mentality, we all should be dropping to our knees and thanking Osama Bin Laden for tighter security at the airports. Wait, do you actually think airports are more secure now?
Well, the people traveling trough it certainly are not more safe.
The chance of your butt crack getting opened is many times higher, and given that who cares about terrorists!
I cannot speak for the buildings however! |
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Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
27
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Posted - 2012.06.22 22:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Lyron-Baktos wrote:why are people shocked that CCP is removing assets? They've done it in the past and they'll do it again. What's more shocking is that Goons did this in the first place. You had to have known you would not be allowed to keep everything I know people might not believe me. But I really did expect to be allowed to keep it. This was well within what I consider the boundaries of the game. Many people agree, this is EVE.
But...you do know those players in corporations exploiting moon go reactions (where the goo wasn't consumed) were all banned. Now we can discuss semantics and if this is identical (in a way it is, but not in all aspects), but just getting assets nuked doesn't seem the hardest op actions CCP could take in that context.
CCP loves meta gaming and Goons excel at it and thus CCP loves Goons. I think that if some smaller unknown entity had done this to this level they would all have been banned! The assets nuked not part of the recent gains might just be a way of rectifying what cannot be 100% perfectly rectified (due to trades, conversions and whatnot).
As for you honestly expecting to keep it all, well, to be a little blunt...there are personality disorders named after such social blindness to effect on other people. No disrespect, I think you did a great job of putting CCP fail on the spot and maybe they start listening next time, but i have my doubts.
My first reaction on reading the whole thing...they must fire they CCP people responsible for this! But I know devs, i am one (not for games or CCP) and worked with many devs throughout my career. One this is certain, nearly all are blind for their own mistakes and many are so self-content with what they make they disregard input from others. This is the typical dev profile, great devs however are totally different in the listening to aspect, while still a little blind to their own mistakes. But thats human i suppose and in a sense a good thing, we don't want devs to be machines, now do we?
In saying so, I think CCP has not a good mix people to set game mechanics and a questionably track record in such matters. This drama was all avoidable in the first place, by both CCP and Goons. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
27
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Posted - 2012.06.22 22:58:00 -
[12] - Quote
Meno Theaetetus wrote:I presume CCP have claimed assets so that they can isolate damage whilst an investigation is on-going.
This is not an exploit, we need to draw a distinction between an exploit and a market manipulation. What was done was within the rules of the game, it was all done within the confines of set game mechanic.
.... lots of text ...
You can pretty much classify everything under that "game mechanic" name space. When things go wrong as in not as intended, which is the situation in this case....you cannot hind behind "the code/mechanic is as they intended". The code can still be open to exploits and effects they did not expect to happen and never intended.
In the end it is up to CCP to determine if the results are damaging enough to warrant action. SOmetimes they do take action, other times not. Guess how this scale of exploration is considered by CCP.
Playing word games to look completely void of wrongdoing isn't gonna cut it this time. |
Inspiration
Focused Radical Energy Engineering
28
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Posted - 2012.06.22 23:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Inspiration wrote:Meno Theaetetus wrote:I presume CCP have claimed assets so that they can isolate damage whilst an investigation is on-going.
This is not an exploit, we need to draw a distinction between an exploit and a market manipulation. What was done was within the rules of the game, it was all done within the confines of set game mechanic.
.... lots of text ...
You can pretty much classify everything under that "game mechanic" name space. When things go wrong as in not as intended, which is the situation in this case....you cannot hind behind "the code/mechanic is as they intended". The code can still be open to exploits and effects they did not expect to happen and never intended. In the end it is up to CCP to determine if the results are damaging enough to warrant action. SOmetimes they do take action, other times not. Guess how this scale of exploration is considered by CCP. Playing word games to look completely void of wrongdoing isn't gonna cut it this time. This wasn't some mysterious vodoo, this was insurance fraud + market manipulation + forex. These are all totally legitimate mechanics. It is only when combined they form the JEWTRON. Goons formed JEWTRON. CCP could not handle the glory. To look upon his face was too much. We thought it was gonna be some damn good content. I dunno wtf with CCP.
Funny you look at it that way...try to see my logic too:
This scheme was duping most players while they could not do anything back!
And not just because Goons are big and others are small, but because it wend trough NPC.
It was Goons vs CCP and near everyone else got financial nuked in the process.
Instead of a sandbox, where players go against each other however they see fit, this turned into Goons vs Sandbox!
Since the sandbox must prevail for EVE to have a future....Goons must loose!
It really is that simple!
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