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Low-sec gate camp: Impossible to escape?

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Bagrista	Posted - 2010.01.03 10:06:00 - [121] Why do you keep going on about some "elite clicking"? Pressing two keys in a quick sucession (faster than 3s... thats not even quick, i could probably do that with my wang) is "elite" to you? I think you should consider some other pastime, because you obviously weren't made for computer gaming. Can I have your stuff now? This is my annoying sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Jin Nib Resplendent Knives	Posted - 2010.01.03 10:17:00 - [122] Milana please keep up with your closed minded attempts to PvP, easy killmails are always useful for padding. Bagrista, lol you win the thread. -Jin Nib Trading on behalf of Opera Noir since: 2009.03.02 03:53:00
Siigari Kitawa Gallente The Aduro Protocol HellFleet	Posted - 2010.01.03 10:25:00 - [123] Alright, I'll bite. 1) Examine gatecamp. 2) See if targets are clustered on the gate or very close to you. 3) Check interceptors. Are they moving or sitting still? 4) If the gate you just jumped through is highsec, consider that. Covert Cloak: Okay. If... i) targets are clustered on the gate, you have a good chance to warp. ii) targets are near you or within decloaking range, your best bet is to mwd back to the gate and spam jump. iii) you are on a highsec gate and are afraid of losing your valuable gear, consider cloaking and burning back to the gate. Normal Cloak/MWD/Align/Warp Okay. If... i) Interceptors are moving, you have a fairly good chance to get aligned before they can bump you. ii) there is a heavy interdictor be aware you WILL NOT BE ABLE TO WARP if you get decloaked somehow. iii) people are near you then your best bet is to run back to the gate with cloak/mwd and spam jump. How to align/cloak/warp If you are satisfied as good to warp, click "warp" to your destination, wait a very slight moment, then hit your cloak button. The delay should be appropriate enough to cloak immediately. This is something you have to feel out. If you have a microwarpdrive fitted, as soon as you press the cloak button click the MWD button AFTER you hit the cloak button. This is important because once you start cloaking you break locks and your sig will go up and you will be uncloakable. www.siigarikitawa.com ò www.eohpoker.com ò Buy a GTC
Milana Arkani Caldari Strategic Expeditionary Force	Posted - 2010.01.03 10:34:00 - [124] Originally by: Bagrista Can I have your stuff now? No, because you're just another mindless alt coward. And you're clearly not bright enough to grasp the basic concept that rapid keystrokes are not necessarily instantaneously processed by a server on a different continent. Good night, trolls.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Military Research and Manufacturing Corp.	Posted - 2010.01.03 10:44:00 - [125] Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 03/01/2010 10:44:33 "Can I have your stuf?" is indeed the only suitable reply to the OP left at this point, since he refuses to accept any useful responses at all. Understand, Milana, that we wouldn't have replied to the thread at all if we weren't genuinely trying to help you. If you have any brains at all, you will go back and read Larkonis' excellent post on the first page and then go practice that maneuver in high sec until you have it down right. Originally by: Akita T this whole game is just me playing with myself
Bagrista	Posted - 2010.01.03 10:46:00 - [126] Originally by: Milana Arkani No, because you're just another mindless alt coward. And you're clearly not bright enough to grasp the basic concept that rapid keystrokes are not necessarily instantaneously processed by a server on a different continent. Good night, trolls. Thousands of players with similar geographical and technical "difficulties" play every day and nobody except you is BAAAAAWWWWWWing on the forums about how he can't click two buttons in less than 3 seconds. Why do you think you're special? Is it because your elementary school classroom had "Special Education" written on the door? This is my annoying sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
ForceM Gallente POS Builder Inc. Silent Requiem	Posted - 2010.01.03 11:16:00 - [127] Originally by: Bagrista Originally by: Milana Arkani No, because you're just another mindless alt coward. And you're clearly not bright enough to grasp the basic concept that rapid keystrokes are not necessarily instantaneously processed by a server on a different continent. Good night, trolls. Thousands of players with similar geographical and technical "difficulties" play every day and nobody except you is BAAAAAWWWWWWing on the forums about how he can't click two buttons in less than 3 seconds. Why do you think you're special? Is it because your elementary school classroom had "Special Education" written on the door? More like "Daycare center" :) -----
Zeredek Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.01.03 11:25:00 - [128] Originally by: Bagrista Originally by: Milana Arkani No, because you're just another mindless alt coward. And you're clearly not bright enough to grasp the basic concept that rapid keystrokes are not necessarily instantaneously processed by a server on a different continent. Good night, trolls. Thousands of players with similar geographical and technical "difficulties" play every day and nobody except you is BAAAAAWWWWWWing on the forums about how he can't click two buttons in less than 3 seconds. Why do you think you're special? Is it because your elementary school classroom had "Special Education" written on the door? My mom says i'm special on the inside Originally by: Rolk Anderson Words cannot describe the hatred I feel for you Zeredek.
Seishi Maru The Black Dawn Gang	Posted - 2010.01.03 11:29:00 - [129] Originally by: Wet Ferret Cloak can't be engaged if someone even begins targeting you. So you need to align and cloak in one swift motion basically, to give them no time to click on you. A little bad luck and latency will get you killed though... Tha is NOT true. When you have an yellow bracked you have already been locked. Try liek this.. get a stealth bobmer.. and a friend in acarrier. Ask him to start locking. SHould take almost 1 minute. You can cloak any time during that. Fact is BC is not a small ship and its easy to lock it in 1 seconds only. And Server lag sometimes is far larger than that so your cloak command might not arrive in time.
Elena Laskova	Posted - 2010.01.03 12:15:00 - [130] Has CCP ever published anything about how the EvE server and clients work, and how they're synchronized? Or has a serious player experimented and documented it? This thread has presented several different, mutually exclusive versions, each apparently supported by experiments. They can't all be true.

Lagruna Zegata	Posted - 2010.01.03 12:16:00 - [131] Rookie question for Larkonis: You said in your instructions to pick an out-of-the-way celestial at a camp if the outbound gate is lined up with your ship and/or the inbound gate. Why is this? Why not align towards something straight ahead of you (even though it's less important with an active cloak)? ~LZ
Zeredek Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2010.01.03 12:19:00 - [132] Originally by: Lagruna Zegata Rookie question for Larkonis: You said in your instructions to pick an out-of-the-way celestial at a camp if the outbound gate is lined up with your ship and/or the inbound gate. Why is this? Why not align towards something straight ahead of you (even though it's less important with an active cloak)? ~LZ Drag bubbles Zeredek Gallente Federation Originally by: Rolk Anderson Words cannot describe the hatred I feel for you Zeredek.
Multipurpose Cleaner	Posted - 2010.01.03 12:52:00 - [133] Originally by: Zeredek Originally by: Lagruna Zegata Rookie question for Larkonis: You said in your instructions to pick an out-of-the-way celestial at a camp if the outbound gate is lined up with your ship and/or the inbound gate. Why is this? Why not align towards something straight ahead of you (even though it's less important with an active cloak)? ~LZ Drag bubbles and smartbombs
Larkonis TrassIer Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2010.01.03 13:23:00 - [134] Originally by: Lagruna Zegata Rookie question for Larkonis: You said in your instructions to pick an out-of-the-way celestial at a camp if the outbound gate is lined up with your ship and/or the inbound gate. Why is this? Why not align towards something straight ahead of you (even though it's less important with an active cloak)? ~LZ On the off chance that their HIC pilot is switched on and has a MWD fitted as soon as he sees you cloak he will start burning towards you. If you spawn on the opposite side of the gate to the outbound and the inbound (and thus the camping ship) are between you and the outbound you will start aligning towards him, cutting the distance down considerably and adding to the chance that he gets a good 'vector' on you and decloaks you. I would make an illustration but I suck at drawing. Reference picking something in front of you. You will find it takes exactly the same amount of time to align to something in front, behind or to the side of you after you jump through a gate.
Dianna Soreil Monolithic.	Posted - 2010.01.03 15:04:00 - [135] holy **** you people are easy to troll
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.01.03 16:09:00 - [136] Edited by: Tippia on 03/01/2010 16:09:58 Originally by: Milana Arkani And you're clearly not bright enough to grasp the basic concept that rapid keystrokes are not necessarily instantaneously processed by a server on a different continent. In other words, latency is working in your favour as you're trying to escape. Originally by: Dianna Soreil holy **** you people are easy to troll I wish we were so lucky. Unfortunately, OP is an idiot that can't even understand his own arguments. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Larkonis TrassIer Neo Spartans Laconian Syndicate	Posted - 2010.01.03 16:20:00 - [137] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Dianna Soreil holy **** you people are easy to troll I wish we were so lucky. Unfortunately, OP is an idiot that can't even understand his own arguments. No, OP is trolling. Most of us figured it out about halfway down page 1.
Trader20	Posted - 2010.01.03 16:21:00 - [138] Just emorage/quit already and contract me your stuff.....lock this thread.
N'tek alar Minmatar	Posted - 2010.01.03 16:22:00 - [139] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 03/01/2010 16:09:58 Originally by: Milana Arkani And you're clearly not bright enough to grasp the basic concept that rapid keystrokes are not necessarily instantaneously processed by a server on a different continent. In other words, latency is working in your favour as you're trying to escape. Originally by: Dianna Soreil holy **** you people are easy to troll I wish we were so lucky. Unfortunately, OP is an idiot that can't even understand his own arguments. except it's obvious that latency only affects the victims of pirates since pirates regukarly break into the server room and hack the code so latency only affects their victims and not themselves... ------------------------- I'm not shirtless damnit!
Bagrista	Posted - 2010.01.04 03:02:00 - [140] Originally by: N'tek alar except it's obvious that latency only affects the victims of pirates since pirates regukarly break into the server room and hack the code so latency only affects their victims and not themselves... http://thenoobcomic.com/index.php?pos=67 This is my annoying sig. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

Milana Arkani Caldari Strategic Expeditionary Force	Posted - 2010.01.04 03:55:00 - [141] Edited by: Milana Arkani on 04/01/2010 03:58:43 To clear up a couple misconceptions that are endlessly repeated in this thread: 1. I haven't disregarded the several interesting/practical/realistic/constructive replies to this thread. (e.g., Many say that I keep ignoring everything good/useful that is said to me, as if it is falling on deaf ears. But that's not true. I carefully read and consider and appreciate everything useful.) (Constructive comments = good. Trolls = bad.) 2. The combat log records events from the SERVER, if I am not mistaken. (That is a key point that I think many of you continue to overlook.) So, the SERVER indicates when it receives my full speed command. Then, three seconds later, it indicates that my attempt to cloak is blocked, etc. Some of you guys keep parroting that it took me three seconds to cloak, when in fact you have no idea whether that is true or not. Again, the combat log records events from the SERVER not the CLIENT, afaik. (Again, I can tap my keyboard as quickly as I want, but there is no guarantee when the server will receive and process those commands.) Good quote here: Originally by: Seishi Maru Fact is BC is not a small ship and its easy to lock it in 1 seconds only. And Server lag sometimes is far larger than that so your cloak command might not arrive in time. Regards, Milana Arkani
Zeredek Gallente Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.01.04 04:11:00 - [142] I'm sorry Milana Arkani But i have to put you down I'll miss you You always was my favorite pet Zeredek Gallente Federation Originally by: Rolk Anderson Words cannot describe the hatred I feel for you Zeredek.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.01.04 04:37:00 - [143] Originally by: Milana Arkani 1. I haven't disregarded the several interesting/practical/realistic/constructive replies to this thread. Yes you have, mainly by claiming that things that have a proven track record as very much working techniques aren't practical or realistic. Quote: Some of you guys keep parroting that it took me three seconds to cloak, when in fact you have no idea whether that is true or not. No, it still tells us that you were slow. The server ticks are shorter than 3s so had your commands been closer together, you would have seen that in the logs. You also keep ignoring the fact that the exact same latency exists on the opponent's side, delaying his chance to react and slowing down his response. Here's an exercise for you: take your Ferox, fill it with ungrouped guns, take it to a belt and find yourself a rat. Now run your finger across F1-F7 and notice how the shots are grouped. You now know how quickly in succession things need to happen in order for the server to consider it a simultaneous event. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Khorian Gallente The Executives IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.01.04 06:10:00 - [144] Edited by: Khorian on 04/01/2010 06:12:47 When I was still gatecamping in Low Sec it always amazed me how many people we killed. We even got some Blockade Runners who had cov ops cloaks fitted but didn't use them. You need to realize that a specialized gate camp is built around the tackler. They have a solution for almost everything that might happen or come through. At least we had. The setups of their ships are all highly specialized for their tasks. InstaLoc Hictors, Lachesis, Proteus. Consider your MWD shut of in the first split second. You wont even have time to build up momentum in a proper camp. But here is the good news: There is lag when yu are targetting too. I had lots of people show up in the targetted bar for a split second but the Scrambler wouldn't activate because they really were in warp allready. That can be quite frustrating. Your best bet of survival is to use a scout and avoid to find yourself in such a situation. Because they use scouts and see you coming from miles away. Your second best bet is to use the MWD-Cloak trick as everyone else here allready told you. Your third best bet is to use a Frig with <1sec aligntime or a cov ops cloaky ship. Your fourth best bet is to use a huge buffer tanked ship abd pray you can slowboat back to the gate. I would say your chances are higher with an AB than with a MWD these days but that of course also depends on the gatecamp. You can also fly with a gang. If your gang is impressive enough the evil piwats wont even go to the gate to attack. Because as i said they see you coming from miles away and only come out to play if they are guaranteed a win. With all that said, and if you follow those guidelines it is IMPOSSIBLE to die in Low Sec. IMPOSSIBLE! Once you understand that, you will also feel SAFE when you enter Low Sec coming from 0.0. In high Sec there is evil Concord and Navys. In 0.0 there is evil bubbles. Only Low Sec is safe. _______________
Zeredek Gallente Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.01.04 06:24:00 - [145] Originally by: Khorian But here is the good news: There is lag when yu are targetting too. I had lots of people show up in the targetted bar for a split second but the Scrambler wouldn't activate because they really were in warp allready. That can be quite frustrating. Activate scramble while targeting then? Zeredek Gallente Federation Originally by: Rolk Anderson Words cannot describe the hatred I feel for you Zeredek.
Khorian Gallente The Executives IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.01.04 06:55:00 - [146] Originally by: Zeredek Originally by: Khorian But here is the good news: There is lag when yu are targetting too. I had lots of people show up in the targetted bar for a split second but the Scrambler wouldn't activate because they really were in warp allready. That can be quite frustrating. Activate scramble while targeting then? Doesn't help :) _______________
Elena Laskova	Posted - 2010.01.04 07:42:00 - [147] Edited by: Elena Laskova on 04/01/2010 07:44:48 Originally by: Tippia ... You also keep ignoring the fact that the exact same latency exists on the opponent's side ... This is not true. I play on a 3G card with a local network latency of about 350 milliseconds (reasonably stable). I'd expect most players are on 50 ms to 150 ms latency. Servers and clients like EvE's which are built together can do things which mitigate the consequences of latency, so you can't randomly assume things work a certain way. For example a client can send commands as they are received, without waiting for a server acknowlegement. Or, as in my last MMO, some (not all) commands could require an ack before you can send another one - effectively locking the keyboard for 2 times network latency, which can be very nice for the player with lower latency. EvE's code has been around a long time. I'd expect it contains a lot of server-side and client-side optimization intended to mitigate the effects of differential latency. But it's impossible for an MMO to perfectly synchronize two players with different network latency. And I do mean impossible. If every single player was on 50ms stable latency or less you could make it very hard to notice though. I can also state with 100% confidence that things happening in the client PC/operating system can cause client-side latency. It looks like you can get additional client-side latency induced by overloading the graphics card too, but I don't have a way to measure that. Bottom line: in today's EvE there are latency effects. Some notes for the lunatic fringe of posters: * I certainly could explain, (even execute) some testable scenarios, but I don't see the point. See above for an request (unanswered) for a link to some decent data. * Differential latency doesn't mean that all the suggestions in this thread are wrong. Or even that the explanations are wrong. * The thread contains contradictory answers. Some of the posts are wrong. Some of the explanations are wrong. * Given the lack of knowledge of basic IT stuff displayed in this thread, it's very likely that some correct suggestions have incorrect explanations, and vice-versa.
Ban Doga	Posted - 2010.01.04 07:54:00 - [148] Originally by: Tippia You also keep ignoring the fact that the exact same latency exists on the opponent's side, delaying his chance to react and slowing down his response. Since network latency is a property of the network route (and its condition) a package has to travel, i.e. from the client to the server or from the server to the client, you can assume that two different users have two different routes and thus will not have the exact same latency. Even if this only accounts for the last hop of the total route it can - and usually does - make a difference. Why would (other) online games show you the ping (a basic metric for network latency) of other players? Certainly not because they all have the same latency.
Tippia Reikoku IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.01.04 09:11:00 - [149] Edited by: Tippia on 04/01/2010 09:14:37 Originally by: Elena Laskova Originally by: Tippia ... You also keep ignoring the fact that the exact same latency exists on the opponent's side ... This is not true. Originally by: Ban Doga Originally by: Tippia You also keep ignoring the fact that the exact same latency exists on the opponent's side, delaying his chance to react and slowing down his response. Since network latency is a property of the network route (and its condition) a package has to travel, i.e. from the client to the server or from the server to the client, you can assume that two different users have two different routes and thus will not have the exact same latency. Ok, "exact same" was a bad choice of words. What I mean is that if it takes the server 1.5s to get the command you input, it takes the opponent the same 1.5s (at least) to get it as well – his possible reactions to a situation where you have the initiative is delayed by your latency, which helps you. And, as mentioned, there's also latency on his end. It may not be symmetrical with yours, but it adds to what you have, and again, since you have the initiative, you're aided by it. Originally by: Elena Laskova * The thread contains contradictory answers. Some of the posts are wrong. Some of the explanations are wrong. The thread contains answers that agree with the posits made in the OP, and answers that are right. It's really that simple. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡à you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
Elena Laskova	Posted - 2010.01.04 09:34:00 - [150] Tippia: You're still wrong. As I tried to explain, the situation is not as simple as it appears at first glance. There are surprisingy many different scenarios (depends on what initiated each sequence of actions, how the server works, how the client works), and results will vary a great deal between different scenarios. Simple example: Server makes Player A (250 ms N/W latency) arrives somewhere after warp (i.e. server-initiated sequence). Player B (100 ms latency) is very close to that location. * Player B's client learns A has arrived 100 ms later. * Player A's client learns A has arrived 250 ms later. * B issues a command (received by the server 100 ms later. * B's command 1 is acked back to B (ack received 100 ms after it's sent). * A sends his first command. * B sends a second command. In what sequence are the commands executed? What are the command timestamps logged (in server time) in the client? This is a very basic scenario, assuming that commands have to be acked before another can be sent. Does EvE actually work this way? I don't know. The scenario is intended to highlight the basic issues of synchronizing players' clients in a realtime shared runtime like an MMO. The "lunatic fringe" section of my last post summarizes what happens when you don't consider stuff like this.



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