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Vincent Death Hyasyoda External Security Trade and Development	Posted - 2010.01.05 09:41:00 - [31] Originally by: Lord Arshavir We modify our methods to suit their reservations, and they throw it back in our faces. So would the Empire willingly ignore it's holy scriptures if it would make life easier for it to do so? The law is the law. Either we recognise it and enforce it every time or we remove it from the lawbook. To create situations where we sometimes adhere to a law and sometimes do not is madness.
Halunoto Vankaalen Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2010.01.05 11:37:00 - [32] Originally by: Lord Arshavir Yet another example of why the Reclaiming is not merely Holy and Just, but Necessary. We offer them the Grace of God, and they choose to worship Profit. We offer them a way to save the lives of their fellows, and they refuse because they disapprove of our methods. We modify our methods to suit their reservations, and they throw it back in our faces. I would not dare to question the motivations of our Holy Empress, but I will say this: one day this alliance of convenience will be over, and on that day those Caldari who persist in their heathen defiance will be Reclaimed. Take note Amarrian, persisting with this sort of dense thinking will lead you to repeat the mistakes that led to the Vak'Atioth debacle. I remember it was not so long ago that carelessness saw the Elder fleet ravage your inner worlds and the Ammatar Mandate. Profit is merely the fruit of seizing opportunity where fate, God or the Maker sees fit to provide for it. If that allows us to project power over those who would challenge the ground held by the Caldari State, or subvert our people then so be it. The State grows and flourishes, through its people. Might makes right, as the anarchists often chant. We are more than prepared for a long winter if one should fall upon us. Can you say the same, nobleman?
Dex Nederland Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2010.01.05 14:42:00 - [33] It appears that the CBD Corporation has encouraged Ducia Foundry to illegally rescue CBD's employees ( link ). Originally by: Caldari law expert Dimm Margo I think it's obvious what's happened. They managed to sneak the slaves in and get the job done, but there will need to be legal accounting sooner or later. Luckily for them, they were successful. CBD must be made to account, the CBT should immediately begin an investigation into the CBD Corporation's operations to ensure they are not ignoring other mutually agreed to State laws and pursuing anti-competitive practices. CEO, Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Mielono Caldari SWARTA	Posted - 2010.01.05 16:04:00 - [34] http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3542&tid=6 The miners have been rescued, I am glad for their families but not for the laws that have been overturned with such a precedence. At what point must we sacrifice our values for a temporary gain?
Halunoto Vankaalen Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2010.01.05 16:59:00 - [35] A favourable outcome for all. The law may have been bent in this particular case, but to the benefit of 176 Caldari families.
Jakiin	Posted - 2010.01.05 17:03:00 - [36] Ah, to be ignorant and/or incompetent by Nederland-haan's standards seems to be working out quite well for Ducia Foundry. A succesful rescue operation by men who were freed for their services to our allies was conducted, and so I'm sure that it will bring us closer together. Or we can turn this incident into a smear campaign against those who adhere to the spirit of the law rather than the word of it. Great work kids. Originally by: Lord Arshavir Stupid things. Ignore it, it just wants our attention. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jakiin Holder Heir of the Kingdom 'Pacifist Reclaimer'
Silas Vitalia Khanid Provincial Vanguard	Posted - 2010.01.05 17:04:00 - [37] Originally by: Mielono http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3542&tid=6 At what point must we sacrifice our values for a temporary gain? I'm sure the miners who are now saved would view the situation a little differently.... Does this mean we can surmise had you been in their place you would have -refused- rescue until a 'legal' solution was presented? You would have stayed, trapped inside the rocks, watching your companions escorted to safety, while you waited for a rescue representing appropriate values? Nonsense. An excellent use of property to affect a favorable outcome. Silas Vitalia CEO Khanid Provincial Vanguard Re-Opening for Recruitment!
Ze'ev Sinraali Ataraxia Pharmacies	Posted - 2010.01.05 17:10:00 - [38] A gamble paid off. There'd be hell to pay if it hadn't.
Mielono Caldari SWARTA	Posted - 2010.01.05 18:09:00 - [39] Originally by: Silas Vitalia Originally by: Mielono http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3542&tid=6 At what point must we sacrifice our values for a temporary gain? I'm sure the miners who are now saved would view the situation a little differently.... Does this mean we can surmise had you been in their place you would have -refused- rescue until a 'legal' solution was presented? You would have stayed, trapped inside the rocks, watching your companions escorted to safety, while you waited for a rescue representing appropriate values? Nonsense. An excellent use of property to affect a favorable outcome. In a fashion, yes, yes I would If an opening was made I would walk out happily, if I was trapped inside the rock and given the option of my people breaking their own laws to save me... I would choose the future of my people, not my own life. This is a precedent of slavery happening inside my peoples territory, I would hate to see where this slippery slope leads.
Saara Nourbal Amarr Khanid Unionist Movement	Posted - 2010.01.05 19:06:00 - [40] Interesting to note that when there are lives on the line, it is all fine to talk about ethics and such. When it is about investments, though - all means are available. I don't have evidence, of course, but I do remember some rumours about Amarr migration workers on this research station, where was it? Ah, Crielere. But of course, that's in the Federation, not in the State. Of course there won't be any concrete evidence that any of the Amarr personnel were slaves at the moment they were in Caldari-controlled territory. Assuming the esteemed Holder was involved, they will be free by now, and if anyone on the rescue project has an ounce of what made Caldari Caldari, it can not be found out if they were legally free after or before the operation.
Akikio Lankinen Caldari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2010.01.05 19:21:00 - [41] No mention of the rescuers fates. So are they now free men or what? I very much doubt it... Maybe they got offers of contracts they couldn't refuse. A paper to wave for the cameras while the reality of all their families and friends still being stuck in slavery gives them little choice of actual freedom... AS for CBD Corporation, they will from now on be a valid target for anyone fighting the despicable system of slavery. Something to consider for the next "profit" report. Plog
Silas Vitalia Khanid Provincial Vanguard	Posted - 2010.01.05 19:22:00 - [42] Mielono, I'm sure the untold masses of State citizens toiling away in factories, in terrible living/working conditions for pittance wages, are in fact slaves in all but name. It's merely a difference in nomenclature. This is an old debate however; let us both simply be happy for the safe rescue of the individuals involved. Silas Vitalia CEO Khanid Provincial Vanguard Re-Opening for Recruitment!
Dex Nederland Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2010.01.06 06:05:00 - [43] Originally by: Jakiin Ah, to be ignorant and/or incompetent by Nederland-haan's standards seems to be working out quite well for Ducia Foundry. A succesful rescue operation by men who were freed for their services to our allies was conducted, and so I'm sure that it will bring us closer together. The hole is getting deeper and I do not want to see my nation, my corporation, or my people more beholden to yours. Down that path is domination, subjugation, and tyranny that will make the Gallente appear to be little more than overbearing, protective parents. You, the Amarr, are as bad if not worse than the Gallente. Neither of you understand the desire for the State and Caldari to be treated as equals. I desire to keep both the Empire and Federation at more than an arms length. Ducia Foundry pulled off a great feat; it saved 176 Caldari. Now the CBD Corporation and 176 of its employees are indebted to Ducia Foundry. I fear that when Ducia Foundry calls in said debt, the price may be worse than the death. Call it conspiracy if you like and write it off; but you by your own admission seek to reclaim. I am a patriot, I take pride in my people, my nation, my culture. I will not see it consumed, snuffed out, and destroyed. I am willing to make deals with oni, whatever guise they come in, in pursuit of those ends. This incident has allowed yet another assault on those things I care about. Quote: Or we can turn this incident into a smear campaign against those who adhere to the spirit of the law rather than the word of it. Great work kids. CBD Corporation's modus operandi is to pursue "investments, though - all means are available." Make no mistake, the machinations of the CBD Corporation in this incident are still focused on profit. CEO, Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Sakura Imoru	Posted - 2010.01.06 08:59:00 - [44] It's a good thing those miners are safe, but the methods used to achieve this are highly detestable, and I'm rather suprised that the Minmatar government hasn't commented the whole situation yet. Well, now that the rescue has been successful, let's just hope the Amarrian filth stay to their word and let those slaves go as free men and women.
William Ytiri Caldari	Posted - 2010.01.06 09:53:00 - [45] Nederland-Haan, I respect your opinions and agree with most of them. I don't think you should hold it against the Amarr that they offered help; although I'd expect the wise Amarr to stick to the rules in such a case; and they obviously have not. It is highly offendable how they acted. They mingled in a political volatile corporate business situation and offered help without considering or respecting CDB's situation. Ducia's weighing factor was not the business model for this mining operation, but the humanitarian goals of saving the valued employees. It placed CBD management in a rather tricky position as they now could not accept collateral damage in this matter and be done with it. It also has put the rescued employees in a very humiliating situation, I certainly would not have accepted if I was the one trapped. The rescue operation has put them in such a great debt to CBD that they and their families cannot ever hope to repay it in their remaining lifes. It would have been better for CBD and for the trapped employees that CBD had the chance to offer those brave employees the opportunity to sacrifice themselves for the efficiency of CBD. CBD directors would no doubt have offered good rewards to their families. I'm willing to support the 176 employees personally to bring a case to the Caldari Business Tribunal to clear their name, as no employee and citizen should ever be placed in such a situation by their corporation for outsider political reasons. In short. The Amarr should have been wiser to mingle directly in Corporate affairs and not place any Caldari corporation in a postition like it put CBD by offering 'help'. I'll make sure that I relay my opinion to Heth at the first opportunity. CBD should think twice about their technological possibilities and business better. The employees are now saved, but the disgrace and humiliation of being outmatched by an Amarr corporation puts them in a very weak spot. Those 176 employees are now in such a great debt to CBD that they cannot ever repay it. This whole situation is a blow to the Caldari State but foremost to its hardworking employees. --- Working at Ytiri Retail? Check here.
Imiom Ravena Caldari CBD Capsuleer Division	Posted - 2010.01.06 10:20:00 - [46] The Capsuleer division of the CBD megacorporation wishes to extend it's pleasure towards the favourable outcome to this matter. As for being... indebted to Ducia and the Empire, I can't see how this is much different then the work conducted by the Protectorate for the Crusade. But that is not what matters, what does however is that these people are now safe and alive, and for that we are thankful. I would think some others would focus on this, and not be so... negative.
William Ytiri Caldari	Posted - 2010.01.06 10:31:00 - [47] Originally by: Imiom Ravena The Capsuleer division of the CBD megacorporation wishes to extend it's pleasure towards the favourable outcome to this matter. As for being... indebted to Ducia and the Empire, I can't see how this is much different then the work conducted by the Protectorate for the Crusade. But that is not what matters, what does however is that these people are now safe and alive, and for that we are thankful. I would think some others would focus on this, and not be so... negative. The CBD employees are safe but they and their families are humiliated and put in great debt because of humanitarian reasons, not business reasons. I fail to see any 'favourable outcome' other than I'm glad I went short on CBD stock. --- Working at Ytiri Retail? Check here.
Van Cleef Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2010.01.07 03:36:00 - [48] Originally by: Halunoto Vankaalen A favourable outcome for all. The law may have been bent in this particular case, but to the benefit of 176 Caldari families. Not bent. Broken. As soon as any slave crosses into Caldari Space they would be free men under our established laws. Yet another example of Caldari traditions and laws falling away. ----------------------------------------------- Admiral Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Serve the State Join Channel CAINCOM
Vikarion Caldari Chorus of Nephilim	Posted - 2010.01.07 04:09:00 - [49] Originally by: Van Cleef Originally by: Halunoto Vankaalen A favourable outcome for all. The law may have been bent in this particular case, but to the benefit of 176 Caldari families. Not bent. Broken. As soon as any slave crosses into Caldari Space they would be free men under our established laws. Yet another example of Caldari traditions and laws falling away. Well, technically, they are free, now. After all, Ducia did free them, according to Ducia. However, that is little excuse. We are a nation of laws and traditions, not of men and popularity contests. This is one of the things that separates us from the Federation. CBD has ignored Caldari practices and standards, and there should be a price for this. They could easily have gone to other Caldari corporations - I myself offered 250 million ISK in reward to volunteers for the task. --- CHORI is recruiting!
Savasaan Todaro	Posted - 2010.01.07 04:19:00 - [50] You would think of all the tens of thousands of ships at the whim of the megacorporations, there would be at least a shuttle sent to retrieve valuable personnel. It makes me sad to see capitalism in such a way. Perhaps the State has been to lax on its enforcement on the price of a human life, so we may not turn into the Amarrian slave drivers.
Halunoto Vankaalen Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2010.01.07 08:54:00 - [51] Edited by: Halunoto Vankaalen on 07/01/2010 08:55:02 Originally by: Van Cleef Originally by: Halunoto Vankaalen A favourable outcome for all. The law may have been bent in this particular case, but to the benefit of 176 Caldari families. Not bent. Broken. As soon as any slave crosses into Caldari Space they would be free men under our established laws. And the slaves that man the thousands of Amarrian trade vessels that cross into the State each day? What about the Amarrian capsuleers who man their ships with slaves? They are free to pass as they will. No questions are asked. What does this really represent? I see many here proclaiming the erosion of our culture, our tradition, but such generalisations cannot be justified. 176 lives have been saved, with Amarrian assistance. Granted, it was within Caldari State territory but I ask those who feel squeamish at the thought, if they also object to doing business with the Kingdom and the Empire? Did any of those miners refuse assistance? Amusing to see capsuleers are the first to suggest they would sacrifice themselves in the name of the law. 176 is just a number, isn't it? Tell the sons and daughters that their fathers should've sacrificed themselves because the State is too proud to accept assistance, from anybody. Tell their relatives, explain to them what more could have been achieved by simply letting them suffocate. And then we'll see in several years, if Caldari society has come crashing down, all premonitions aside.
Vincent Death Hyasyoda External Security Trade and Development	Posted - 2010.01.07 09:27:00 - [52] Originally by: Savasaan Todaro Perhaps the State has been to lax on its enforcement on the price of a human life, so we may not turn into the Amarrian slave drivers. CBD is not the State. The Practical bloc is not the State.
Mielono Caldari SWARTA	Posted - 2010.01.07 14:20:00 - [53] Edited by: Mielono on 07/01/2010 14:22:02 Originally by: Halunoto Vankaalen Edited by: Halunoto Vankaalen on 07/01/2010 08:55:02 Originally by: Van Cleef Originally by: Halunoto Vankaalen A favourable outcome for all. The law may have been bent in this particular case, but to the benefit of 176 Caldari families. Not bent. Broken. As soon as any slave crosses into Caldari Space they would be free men under our established laws. And the slaves that man the thousands of Amarrian trade vessels that cross into the State each day? What about the Amarrian capsuleers who man their ships with slaves? They are free to pass as they will. No questions are asked. What does this really represent? I see many here proclaiming the erosion of our culture, our tradition, but such generalisations cannot be justified. 176 lives have been saved, with Amarrian assistance. Granted, it was within Caldari State territory but I ask those who feel squeamish at the thought, if they also object to doing business with the Kingdom and the Empire? Did any of those miners refuse assistance? Amusing to see capsuleers are the first to suggest they would sacrifice themselves in the name of the law. 176 is just a number, isn't it? Tell the sons and daughters that their fathers should've sacrificed themselves because the State is too proud to accept assistance, from anybody. Tell their relatives, explain to them what more could have been achieved by simply letting them suffocate. And then we'll see in several years, if Caldari society has come crashing down, all premonitions aside. you load your questions with very heavy shot, but in return I ask you, would any Caldari not sacrifice him or herself for the future of our society? Would you not sacrifice yourself for the future of the Caldari? ((ooc I need something answered, holding slaves in your hold is illegal but the crews of our ships being slaves is not... how is this handled so I can make a proper rebuttle))
Halunoto Vankaalen Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2010.01.08 00:09:00 - [54] Originally by: Mielono you load your questions with very heavy shot, but in return I ask you, would any Caldari not sacrifice him or herself for the future of our society? Would you not sacrifice yourself for the future of the Caldari? ((ooc I need something answered, holding slaves in your hold is illegal but the crews of our ships being slaves is not... how is this handled so I can make a proper rebuttle)) It appears the trapped miners didn't feel the future of the Caldari State was resting upon their shoulders when the Ducia team saved them from certain death. As I said before, this in itself is hardly a threat to our culture and traditions, were our culture so fragile, it would never have survived the exodus of Caldari Prime. We are a proud people, like many in this galaxy and I suspect this is why many feel so offended at this turn of events. Nevertheless, we should never let our pride blind ourselves. As allies, not only did the Empire offer its services to save men who would otherwise have suffered a pointless death, they even accommodated the differences between our two cultures. The slaves have since been freed, after purchase and release by Holder Freimala. Culture itself is not static and I would wager that years of profitable trading between the Kingdom, the Empire and ourselves have done more to imprint difference on our culture than one successful rescue mission. Time will tell if our culture, traditions and sovereignty are as weak and brittle as some of the claims here imply. [[ Hard to say, I would say it is only the 'trading' of slaves (i.e. carrying them in your cargo where they are classified as livestock) that is illegal. ]]

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