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Soliscout
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Posted - 2010.01.07 15:24:00 -
[1]
Hi everyone,
my question is if I should keep on using my Nightmare for mission running, or if there would be a huge upgrade skilling for the Paladin.
At the moment I am breezing through every lvl4 with ease and doing some real nice dmg using 4 imperial Navy tachs. Due to the fact that i have my Nightmare shieldtanked I can use heatsinks and tracking enhancers in my lows which give me a nice dmg boost aswell as tracking and optimal. Because of that I use Multifrequenzy out to 60 km and X-Ray to the maximum targeting range, so I dont suffer considerable dmg losses even on long range.
The question is straight, what advantages would the Palading give me? The 4 turret slots with +100%dmg are there aswell on the Nightmare and due to a nice tracking I can get rid of cruisers using my tachs aswell, so the web is not needed at all. This leaves me with the tractor beam range, which is of course very very nice. But is there something else I am missing?
Because if not, it would mean that I would train Amarr BS V and adv. Weapon Upgrade V just to get a 40km tractor beam?
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Inuyasha507
Caldari Ever Flow
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Posted - 2010.01.07 15:41:00 -
[2]
Lucky for you I went through the same problem. The Nightmare can do everything the Paladin does but better. You should still get BS 5 and AWU 5 since more tracking and grid are never bad things. Unless you feel the Tractor range is absolutly necessary I would stay with the Nightmare.
In my opnion it looks better, is seen less often, and can handle smaller targets a bit better.
Up to you really. Hope this helped a bit.
--Inu
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Soliscout
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Posted - 2010.01.07 16:19:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Inuyasha507 Lucky for you I went through the same problem. The Nightmare can do everything the Paladin does but better. You should still get BS 5 and AWU 5 since more tracking and grid are never bad things. Unless you feel the Tractor range is absolutly necessary I would stay with the Nightmare.
In my opnion it looks better, is seen less often, and can handle smaller targets a bit better.
Up to you really. Hope this helped a bit.
--Inu
Yes thanks a lot this helped me in that way, that I now am sure I did not miss something important about the Paladin except for the tractor beam range...now I am sure, that I am going to train something else for now, since 40km tractor beam range is hardly worth 45 days of training :P
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Pry Maraai
Amarr Butterfly Fury
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Posted - 2010.01.07 16:30:00 -
[4]
Nightmare for LP & Standing/min. Paladin for ISK/min.
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Forranz
Malice. Tentative Nature
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Posted - 2010.01.07 16:40:00 -
[5]
BS V and AWU V are good skills to have regardless. I find most of my fits are requiring tighter and tighter fits.
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Soliscout
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Posted - 2010.01.07 16:43:00 -
[6]
of course they are nice skills, but my char is not that old, so there are many other skills that might be more worth the time...
other question I came across...is there any advantage of T2 beams over the imperial navy ones? Pulse T2 are needed for scorch, but you would use T2 beams with multifrequenzy aswell, so is there an upgrade from imperial navy tachs to T2 tachs?
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Clueless Alt
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Posted - 2010.01.07 16:51:00 -
[7]
A tiny DPS increase (and volley damage too), 9 by gun with the spec at 4, 14 with the spec at 5. But it comes with a lot more capacitor usage. Personnaly I stick with faction teach (I use a nightmare btw, I find the shield tanking more relaxing).
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Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
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Posted - 2010.01.07 17:04:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Soliscout
Yes thanks a lot this helped me in that way, that I now am sure I did not miss something important about the Paladin except for the tractor beam range...now I am sure, that I am going to train something else for now, since 40km tractor beam range is hardly worth 45 days of training :P
The huge cargo is a huge plus for the marauders. It means you can forget any cap recharge mods/rig and go with a cap booster setup that is actually viable, as you can get out with a stupid number of cap800, freeing slots for damage/tracking mods. And also mean that you can truly loot as you go. Which in practice is quite the ISK maker, much more than completing the mission 10% faster in a Nightmare. -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog |
Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.01.07 17:10:00 -
[9]
If you plan looting /salvaging/ while running mission go for pally. If not, use nightmare. Easy.
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Vaine Amarr
Amarr Angel Feathers Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.01.07 17:21:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Vaine Amarr on 07/01/2010 17:23:02
Originally by: Lubomir Penev
Originally by: Soliscout
Yes thanks a lot this helped me in that way, that I now am sure I did not miss something important about the Paladin except for the tractor beam range...now I am sure, that I am going to train something else for now, since 40km tractor beam range is hardly worth 45 days of training :P
The huge cargo is a huge plus for the marauders. It means you can forget any cap recharge mods/rig and go with a cap booster setup that is actually viable, as you can get out with a stupid number of cap800, freeing slots for damage/tracking mods. And also mean that you can truly loot as you go. Which in practice is quite the ISK maker, much more than completing the mission 10% faster in a Nightmare.
I would like to see that 'viable' setup of yours, because last time I looked, cap boosters required quite a bit of grid... __________________________ It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
O rly? |
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Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
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Posted - 2010.01.07 17:37:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Lubomir Penev on 07/01/2010 17:45:38
Originally by: Vaine Amarr
I would like to see that 'viable' setup of yours, because last time I looked, cap boosters required quite a bit of grid...
My personal experience is with Kronos where it wasn't a bother. Quick EFTing make it looks like a Tachyon fit is very hard but following setup should be pretty decent...
[Paladin, injected] Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer Armor EM Hardener II Armor EM Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Tracking Computer II Tracking Computer II
Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Mega Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Salvager I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Hammerhead II x5
Edit: you can do sick stuff with a bit of pimping (the best ingame em hardeners are cheap the rep and thermal hardeners are actually expensive)
[Paladin, injected pimp] Corpum A-Type Medium Armor Repairer Corpus X-Type Armor EM Hardener Corpus X-Type Armor EM Hardener Corpus X-Type Armor Thermic Hardener Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heavy Capacitor Booster, Cap Booster 800 Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Federation Navy Tracking Computer Federation Navy Tracking Computer
Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Imperial Navy Tachyon Beam Laser, Imperial Navy Multifrequency L Small Tractor Beam I Small Tractor Beam I Salvager I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump II Large Nanobot Accelerator II
Hammerhead II x5
-- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog |
Vaine Amarr
Amarr Angel Feathers Research and Development
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Posted - 2010.01.07 17:53:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Vaine Amarr on 07/01/2010 17:55:43 Neither of those are 'viable', as one does crap damage and you would fare better just sticking with mega pulses where you dont need a booster at all, and the other is ******edly expensive, and likely to get you suicide ganked. __________________________ It's great being Amarr, ain't it?
O rly? |
d3vo
Isotope Laboratories
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Posted - 2010.01.07 18:57:00 -
[13]
Those setups are over tanked, which is why cap boosting is pointless and a waste of isk.
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.01.07 19:05:00 -
[14]
And web is useless on pve pally...
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2010.01.07 19:55:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 And web is useless on pve pally...
I disagree; there are missions that dump you into a pile of cruisers and not many BS (the first stage of Sansha vengeance comes to mind, which is a good example because the cruisers tracking disrupt you as well). A web there lets you hit the cruisers with your guns as well as your drones.
I use 2x TC II + Fed Navy web which lets me pretty much track anything (except orbiting frigs) outside of 18km and web anything inside down to a speed where it can just get melted.
Additionally on missions like Damsel or AE that have high damage BS that try to hump your face pretty quickly, the web helps a lot in getting DPS on target.
(P.S. Tachs + Multifrequency >>> Pulse + Scorch) ________________
Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.01.07 20:22:00 -
[16]
Damsel - pulses /everything is inside mf range/. Vengeance - tcs scripted for tracking. AE - another ship lol.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2010.01.07 21:11:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 Damsel - pulses /everything is inside mf range/. Vengeance - tcs scripted for tracking. AE - another ship lol.
Pulses have good tracking but they don't track well enough that the addition of a 90% web is worth overlooking and anyway after 2x TC and a cap recharger I've got an extra mid and nothing better to do with it. I find the web is valuable on a number of missions (and pointless on many of them as well), YMMV. ________________
Originally by: CCP Incognito PS the "time to P*nis" is the shortest time recorded in human history. :)
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Georgi Kuriacin
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2010.01.08 00:46:00 -
[18]
I can fly both on my main. My Nightmare does slightly more damage than my Paladin but not by a huge amount. Generally, if I'm going to loot/salvage, I'll take the paladin. If I just want to blast thru missions for LP, I'll use the NM.
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Carniflex
StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.01.08 08:25:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Soliscout
other question I came across...is there any advantage of T2 beams over the imperial navy ones? Pulse T2 are needed for scorch, but you would use T2 beams with multifrequenzy aswell, so is there an upgrade from imperial navy tachs to T2 tachs?
T2 beams are good to have, but if you already have the imperial tahyions they are not that huge step upwards. I would suggest ofc training the large energy turret to 5 regardless. They do a bit more damage at spec 4, but also consume more capacitor so many people prefer t6o stick to imperial tahyions regardless of being able to fit T2.
So yes - train for them, but you do not need to make them highest priority. I would train large energy turret 5 and capacitor support skills to 5 and caldari and amarr bs 5 before going for them.
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Lubomir Penev
Dark Nexxus
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Posted - 2010.01.08 10:42:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Vaine Amarr Edited by: Vaine Amarr on 07/01/2010 17:55:43 Neither of those are 'viable', as one does crap damage and you would fare better just sticking with mega pulses where you dont need a booster at all, and the other is ******edly expensive, and likely to get you suicide ganked.
Mega beams II + 3 HS, Multifreq : 700dps, 39 cap/s, Tachyon II + 3 HS, Multifreq, 750dps, 42 cap/s, worst tracking, better optimal and alpha, fitting issues
Mega beams likely make more sense than Tachyon in the less BS heavy missions... Mega pulse + scorch are in between in term of damage but will only reach out to 70km with 3 range enhancing mods, some missions have stuff at 100+km. I always found the option to reach to 100km very convenient. Only 28 cap/s otoh... -- 081014 : emoragequit, char transfered to a friend, 090317 : back to original owner blog |
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brocksamson316
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Posted - 2010.01.08 10:42:00 -
[21]
After flying both extensively i think the more profitable of the 2 is a paladin with 2 tracking computers or 1 tracking comp and 1 gallente navy webber. in lows an eanm and 2 specific hardeners and 3 heat sinks, you can salvage and loot just the large wrecks and make more isk overall.
However the nightmare is better for blitzing as you can easily fit 4 damage mods and a tracking enhancer, i also prefer pulse on a nightmare but a tracking enhancer is a must if using pulse
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J'Mkarr Soban
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Posted - 2010.01.08 10:51:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 And web is useless on pve pally...
I disagree; there are missions that dump you into a pile of cruisers and not many BS (the first stage of Sansha vengeance comes to mind, which is a good example because the cruisers tracking disrupt you as well). A web there lets you hit the cruisers with your guns as well as your drones.
I use 2x TC II + Fed Navy web which lets me pretty much track anything (except orbiting frigs) outside of 18km and web anything inside down to a speed where it can just get melted.
Additionally on missions like Damsel or AE that have high damage BS that try to hump your face pretty quickly, the web helps a lot in getting DPS on target.
(P.S. Tachs + Multifrequency >>> Pulse + Scorch)
Actually, it is useless. I came to that conclusion after 6 months of Paladin flying, and then moving to the Nightmare.
For the same skills, the Nightmare has a built in TC. That is not to be overlooked. In all the examples you give, I have not a single problem. In fact, when I do missions in my Tach Nightmare with MF, I shoot the frigates first. Because a single gun can pop them, anywhere from 15km to 100km (with UV).
Everyone talks about salvaging and looting as you go, which is fine, but remember that you've only got three slots for that, so the salvaging will be slower than a dedicated salvager. With the speed boost for doing the missions in a Nightmare, plus the speed boost of coming back in and salvaging in a cane with 4/4 tractors/salvagers, it's much quicker.
The only big difference is the cap stability. However, with good tanking skills, you very rarely need to turn on the booster. There is only -one- mission where I need to warp out, and that's AE, and even then it was only once. Even then, if I'd fit a cap modules instead of a TE in the low, I probably would have been fine.
-- These are my personal views and in no way represent the views of Proxenetae Invicti, which maintains a neutral stance stemming from the strong ethics demanded of its work. |
Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
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Posted - 2010.01.08 11:06:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 08/01/2010 11:06:24
Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 And web is useless on pve pally...
I disagree; there are missions that dump you into a pile of cruisers and not many BS (the first stage of Sansha vengeance comes to mind, which is a good example because the cruisers tracking disrupt you as well). A web there lets you hit the cruisers with your guns as well as your drones.
I use 2x TC II + Fed Navy web which lets me pretty much track anything (except orbiting frigs) outside of 18km and web anything inside down to a speed where it can just get melted.
Additionally on missions like Damsel or AE that have high damage BS that try to hump your face pretty quickly, the web helps a lot in getting DPS on target.
(P.S. Tachs + Multifrequency >>> Pulse + Scorch)
Actually, it is useless. I came to that conclusion after 6 months of Paladin flying, and then moving to the Nightmare.
For the same skills, the Nightmare has a built in TC. That is not to be overlooked. In all the examples you give, I have not a single problem. In fact, when I do missions in my Tach Nightmare with MF, I shoot the frigates first. Because a single gun can pop them, anywhere from 15km to 100km (with UV).
Everyone talks about salvaging and looting as you go, which is fine, but remember that you've only got three slots for that, so the salvaging will be slower than a dedicated salvager. With the speed boost for doing the missions in a Nightmare, plus the speed boost of coming back in and salvaging in a cane with 4/4 tractors/salvagers, it's much quicker.
The only big difference is the cap stability. However, with good tanking skills, you very rarely need to turn on the booster. There is only -one- mission where I need to warp out, and that's AE, and even then it was only once. Even then, if I'd fit a cap modules instead of a TE in the low, I probably would have been fine.
Actually what you should do in a Paladin is fitting three tractors, grab all wrecks in reach into one nice ball while you kill, and then come back in a cane with 7 salvagers (and one tractor to hunt down the possible stray BS wreck). And seeing how I switched from Nightmare to Paladin, I can tell you that this yielded quite a bit better isk/hour than just ganking slightly faster in a Nightmare and then hunting the wrecks down in a 4/4 salvage cane. Even though salvage prices are down significantly from when I last ran L4s, I suspect this still holds true, if not by a large margin. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
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Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.01.08 12:23:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar ...and then come back in a cane with 7 salvagers... ...hunting the wrecks down in a 4/4 salvage cane...
If you dont have alt for this you should ignore salvage completely. Just loot bs wrecks that are 40k from you while shooting, ignore the rest.
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Sturmwolke
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Posted - 2010.01.08 12:28:00 -
[25]
Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 And web is useless on pve pally...
I disagree; there are missions that dump you into a pile of cruisers and not many BS (the first stage of Sansha vengeance comes to mind, which is a good example because the cruisers tracking disrupt you as well). A web there lets you hit the cruisers with your guns as well as your drones.
Actually, it is useless. I came to that conclusion after 6 months of Paladin flying, and then moving to the Nightmare.
A 90% faction web (>15km) is very useful when you running against Angels, and of course the situations described previously. Granted it's not standard PVE fitting (hence, it might not turn your lightbulb on) but I'll take 2 TC + web anytime in those situations.
A 2 TC Paladin is passable, not as good as a full fledged Nightmare, but close enough. |
Lugalzagezi666
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Posted - 2010.01.08 12:37:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Lugalzagezi666 on 08/01/2010 12:39:06
Originally by: Sturmwolke A 90% faction web (>15km) is very useful when you running against Angels...
You shouldnt use pally vs angels. If you cant get in other ship /i guess op can since hes flying nm/, just decline it, its a waste of time. E: Guristas probably too, but blitzing assault is easy, so its not such a waste of time like ae.
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Leandro Salazar
Quam Singulari
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Posted - 2010.01.08 15:30:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666
Originally by: Leandro Salazar ...and then come back in a cane with 7 salvagers... ...hunting the wrecks down in a 4/4 salvage cane...
If you dont have alt for this you should ignore salvage completely. Just loot bs wrecks that are 40k from you while shooting, ignore the rest.
Coming back to my wreckball and salvaging it takes me roughly 5 minutes and used to gain me like 15 mil worth of salvage on the good missions. That is much better isk/hour than any straight mission, so not doing it even without an alt is very very silly. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
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Seriously Bored
Minmatar
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Posted - 2010.01.08 17:53:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Coming back to my wreckball and salvaging it takes me roughly 5 minutes and used to gain me like 15 mil worth of salvage on the good missions. That is much better isk/hour than any straight mission, so not doing it even without an alt is very very silly.
It takes longer than you think. I used to make wreck balls until I actually timed it and then gave salvaging-as-you-go a shot.
Limit yourself to salvaging BS and the occasional BC wreck, and you come out with 80% of the salvage/loot value without spending more than 30 seconds longer on a mission than it takes to kill the last rat. If you're only salvaging those wrecks in your Hurricane anyway, that's even more reason to ditch it and just fit a tractor and salvagers on your ship.
I used to defend wreck-balling fairly vigorously. It only took me giving another method a shot and looking at the clock for me to never go back. I hope you at least simply try it.
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Liang Nuren
The Lollypop Factory
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Posted - 2010.01.08 18:05:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Seriously Bored
It takes longer than you think. I used to make wreck balls until I actually timed it and then gave salvaging-as-you-go a shot.
Limit yourself to salvaging BS and the occasional BC wreck, and you come out with 80% of the salvage/loot value without spending more than 30 seconds longer on a mission than it takes to kill the last rat. If you're only salvaging those wrecks in your Hurricane anyway, that's even more reason to ditch it and just fit a tractor and salvagers on your ship.
I used to defend wreck-balling fairly vigorously. It only took me giving another method a shot and looking at the clock for me to never go back. I hope you at least simply try it.
Hell I barely salvage anymore - better to just get more of the loot and hope for named cruiser/frig sized modules.
-Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org |
Exitar Stormscion
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Posted - 2010.01.08 18:33:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Terianna Eri
Originally by: Lugalzagezi666 And web is useless on pve pally...
(P.S. Tachs + Multifrequency >>> Pulse + Scorch)
QTF !
Mortal in body Eternal in will. |
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