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Commercant Epique	Posted - 2010.01.13 17:45:00 - [1] Hey everyone :) I am becoming more and more interested in the market as I get back into Eve. Since last night I have made 17 Mill ISK from an initial 100,000 ISK donation from a friend. However I am wondering if I am doing the right thing. I was reading through the MD forums and came across a topic by Business Ethics on his Banana Boat Holdings. He says he has made some insane amount of isk (in the range of 100's of billions), and he says hes only undocked 7 times total. How is this possible? If you are buying low/selling high how is he selling items at a low price and then much higher in the same station? Don't you have to move the products in order to get a higher buy price, or is there something I am missing? Thanks for any responses, and sorry if this is a noob question =/ `Commercant Epique
Chick'n Nugget	Posted - 2010.01.13 17:51:00 - [2] Low buy orders that are limited to just the station, and then you turn around and create sell orders in the same station. Really only works well if you are in one of the major trade hubs.
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance	Posted - 2010.01.13 17:54:00 - [3] and you need trade skills as well as market experience
Commercant Epique	Posted - 2010.01.13 18:00:00 - [4] Originally by: Chick'n Nugget Low buy orders that are limited to just the station, and then you turn around and create sell orders in the same station. Really only works well if you are in one of the major trade hubs. Originally by: SetrakDark and you need trade skills as well as market experience Hmm ok I think I'm starting to understand it better. As to trade skills which ones would you recommend to train first?
SetrakDark Caldari DarkCorp Technology and Finance	Posted - 2010.01.13 18:02:00 - [5] Originally by: Commercant Epique As to trade skills which ones would you recommend to train first? I'll let better traders than me answer that.
Wyke Mossari Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.01.13 18:04:00 - [6] Instead of being the middle man hauling goods between two NPCs, be the middle man between PCs. Think about what do PCs need but they (or other) PCs sell. Think about this for PvE, PvP, the industrialist, the researcher, the inventor. There are actually dozens of market segments. Read the info on the trade skills.
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2010.01.13 18:10:00 - [7] Originally by: Commercant Epique Hmm ok I think I'm starting to understand it better. As to trade skills which ones would you recommend to train first? my recommendation would be to train Margin Trading to Level IV (important), Broker Relations to Level IV (nice to have) and everything else as you see fit (depends on your personal trading style: do you really need a lot of order slots? do you like to trade will sitting in a belt mining? etc.)
Lord Arbalest Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2010.01.13 18:10:00 - [8] Also, please don't have the illusion that it is 'easy' to obtain a vast personal wealth of 100B easily or quickly. Station trading has a point where your returns in relation to the isk you invest starts to curve off - after all, there is only so many orders you can handle and items the market can shift at one point. While, yes, station trading can be very profitable - it is a cut-throat environment that is constantly changing and you need to keep on top of trends, manipulations and so forth (Don't want to get caught up in someone's failed manipulation). Buying low, then MOVING the products, and selling high is a good way to make ISK - don't push it aside because station trading looks or sounds 'cooler'.
Magnu Stormhawk Stormhawk Enterprises	Posted - 2010.01.13 18:16:00 - [9] Originally by: Commercant Epique Originally by: Chick'n Nugget Low buy orders that are limited to just the station, and then you turn around and create sell orders in the same station. Really only works well if you are in one of the major trade hubs. Originally by: SetrakDark and you need trade skills as well as market experience Hmm ok I think I'm starting to understand it better. As to trade skills which ones would you recommend to train first? Surprisingly enough, 'Trade' is probably your best bet to start with. After that, Retail and Wholesale to get a decent amount of order slots (dont have to be to lvl 5 at first, better to go to 4 to get the next order slot skill) After that, if you are station trading only, broker relations and accountancy to cut the cost of trading. If you travelling a lot or region buying you will need to look at the other trade skills, procurement, marketing, visability to let you place and amend orders from several jumps away. If this is important you might want to do it before you get broker relations and accountancy. There is one key skill that is of great benefit - margin trading. Slot this in when you feel you understand how it works and it will work for you. It's good to have broker fees reduced by broker relations if you are going to use margin trading. There are no real must-have skills to be honest, other than a few slots. The trade skill set just makes it easier and more efficient. My 2 isk.
Commercant Epique	Posted - 2010.01.13 18:33:00 - [10] Originally by: Lord Arbalest Also, please don't have the illusion that it is 'easy' to obtain a vast personal wealth of 100B easily or quickly. Station trading has a point where your returns in relation to the isk you invest starts to curve off - after all, there is only so many orders you can handle and items the market can shift at one point. While, yes, station trading can be very profitable - it is a cut-throat environment that is constantly changing and you need to keep on top of trends, manipulations and so forth (Don't want to get caught up in someone's failed manipulation). Buying low, then MOVING the products, and selling high is a good way to make ISK - don't push it aside because station trading looks or sounds 'cooler'. I'm not under this illusion don't worry :P I realize its going to take a long while to make higher profits but it seems to me the buying low, hauling and selling higher is very low income. It is also very very tedious flying around in a badger trying to gather items. Station trading just seems more interesting. I know there will always be isk to be made moving stuff around but this isn't really what I want to do as I don't have time to sit all day long moving s*** around :P To everyone else thank you for your responses. I am currently training trading to 5 and then I will be working on broker relations, margin trading and accounting to 3 for now. Then I will work on upping my total amount of buy and sell orders through things like day trading visibility ect.
Wyke Mossari Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.01.13 18:33:00 - [11] Originally by: Commercant Epique Hmm ok I think I'm starting to understand it better. As to trade skills which ones would you recommend to train first? 1) Pick a segment you already know, for example if you previously ran missions, trade module drops, or goods to complete missions, focus on those you know other mission runners will want. It's probably the easiest segment and is scalable as your own mission running skill improves. Invention, COSMOS, faction, implant are all possible. Mineral trading is the most cut throat segment and needs massive amounts of capital so is best avoided to start with. 2) Stop using instant trade and start using trades that last. 3) Train the skills that increase the number of trades first. Trade->Retail->Wholesale->Tycoon. As you find you need more trades get the next skills. You don't max them out at first, train enough to open up the next level. These skills get expensive fast so you might want to train some of the the following before you go the whole way. 4) Train the skills that reduce your costs, tax and broker fees. Accounting, Broker Relations, Margin Trading. lvl 3/4 should be more than enough for a long time. 5) Train Day Trading to allow you to remote modify, lvl 3/4 should be more than enough for a long time. 6) Train skills to setup remote trades, procurement, marketing, visibility. No need to train beyond lvl 3/4 at all. Unless you want to become an elite trader, the biggest bottle neck on these skills is the cost not the training time. Develop trading as a co-profession.
Commercant Epique	Posted - 2010.01.13 19:04:00 - [12] Originally by: Wyke Mossari Edited by: Wyke Mossari on 13/01/2010 18:41:59 Originally by: Commercant Epique Hmm ok I think I'm starting to understand it better. As to trade skills which ones would you recommend to train first? 1) Pick a segment you already know, for example if you previously ran missions, trade module drops, or goods to complete missions, focus on those you know other mission runners will want. It's probably the easiest segment and is scalable as your own mission running skill improves. Invention, COSMOS, faction, implant are all possible. Mineral trading is the most cut throat segment and needs massive amounts of capital so is best avoided to start with. 2) Stop using instant trade and click that that advanced button, start using trades that persist. 3) Train the skills that increase the number of trades first. Trade->Retail->Wholesale->Tycoon. As you find you need more trades get the next skill. You don't max them out at first, train enough to open up the next level, then fill in the gaps. These skills get expensive fast so you might want to train some of the following before you go the whole way. 4) Train the skills that reduce your costs, Accounting, Broker Relations, Margin Trading. lvl 3/4 should be more than enough to start with. 5) Train Day Trading to allow you to remote modify, lvl 3/4 should be more than enough for a long time. 6) Train skills to setup & modify remote trades, procurement, marketing, visibility. No need to train beyond lvl 3/4 at all. Unless you want to become an elite trader you won't need these to level 5. The biggest bottle neck on these skills is the cost not the training time. Develop trading as a co-profession. Wow thank you! :) That is perfectt!
Lord Arbalest Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2010.01.13 19:22:00 - [13] Edited by: Lord Arbalest on 13/01/2010 19:23:32 Originally by: Commercant Epique I don't have time to sit all day long moving s*** around :P Just to comment on this, if you decide to station trade in Jita (and in some case the other main hubs) you will need to constantly be available to edit your orders, market pvp, and engage in 0.01 wars. Meaning instead of spending time moving your goods around, you will be spending time updating/managing your orders. Ultimately this comes down to how much liquid isk you have in your disposal, as, a small amount will mean you will need to keep turning your orders over to put new ones up, and a larger wallet balance means you can be allot more patient as you don't need all your orders to continually keep filling. I advise you look into trading in fast moving/large quantity good markets until you have amassed more isk. (I can't remember how much you have, so, this piont may be void.)
Commercant Epique	Posted - 2010.01.13 19:29:00 - [14] Originally by: Lord Arbalest Edited by: Lord Arbalest on 13/01/2010 19:23:32 Originally by: Commercant Epique I don't have time to sit all day long moving s*** around :P Just to comment on this, if you decide to station trade in Jita (and in some case the other main hubs) you will need to constantly be available to edit your orders, market pvp, and engage in 0.01 wars. Meaning instead of spending time moving your goods around, you will be spending time updating/managing your orders. Ultimately this comes down to how much liquid isk you have in your disposal, as, a small amount will mean you will need to keep turning your orders over to put new ones up, and a larger wallet balance means you can be allot more patient as you don't need all your orders to continually keep filling. I advise you look into trading in fast moving/large quantity good markets until you have amassed more isk. (I can't remember how much you have, so, this piont may be void.) Most of my liquid isk is now in buy orders as I attempt to break into the market in Jita :P In the last hour I have made about 10 mill isk. However I am interested in the fast moving/large quantity goods you are talking about...what kinds of items would those be?
Mme Pinkerton Caldari	Posted - 2010.01.13 19:40:00 - [15] Originally by: Commercant Epique However I am interested in the fast moving/large quantity goods you are talking about...what kinds of items would those be? Can be everything from Warp Core Stabs I to 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates. With very few exceptions you either get high volume or a high buy/sell spread.
Commercant Epique	Posted - 2010.01.13 19:56:00 - [16] Originally by: Mme Pinkerton Originally by: Commercant Epique However I am interested in the fast moving/large quantity goods you are talking about...what kinds of items would those be? Can be everything from Warp Core Stabs I to 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates. With very few exceptions you either get high volume or a high buy/sell spread. So most likely t1 ship mods for the most part?
Lord Arbalest Amarr Luck Yourself Into Isk	Posted - 2010.01.13 20:06:00 - [17] You need to understand the target market consumers you are aiming at. For example, think about a mission runner. What items do they use allot? What are very common mission running item fits, what is the most used mission ship and does that effect what modules they use?
Biruni Khan	Posted - 2010.01.13 21:48:00 - [18] Originally by: Commercant Epique Since last night I have made 17 Mill ISK from an initial 100,000 ISK donation from a friend. I think MD should be asking you for advice.
Commercant Epique	Posted - 2010.01.17 22:07:00 - [19] Originally by: Biruni Khan Originally by: Commercant Epique Since last night I have made 17 Mill ISK from an initial 100,000 ISK donation from a friend. I think MD should be asking you for advice. Well starting off I have had to spend a lot of time just sitting and waiting for the .01 ISK war. If I had better skills trained it would be easier as well. My margins are very short...I am just trading lots of volume :P
Rogueresearch	Posted - 2010.01.17 22:27:00 - [20] Originally by: Commercant Epique Originally by: Biruni Khan Originally by: Commercant Epique Since last night I have made 17 Mill ISK from an initial 100,000 ISK donation from a friend. I think MD should be asking you for advice. Well starting off I have had to spend a lot of time just sitting and waiting for the .01 ISK war. If I had better skills trained it would be easier as well. My margins are very short...I am just trading lots of volume :P Set region wide buy orders and train marketing skill to sell stuff in situ.
Wyke Mossari Gallente Staner Industries	Posted - 2010.01.17 23:48:00 - [21] Originally by: Commercant Epique Well starting off I have had to spend a lot of time just sitting and waiting for the .01 ISK war. If I had better skills trained it would be easier as well. My margins are very short...I am just trading lots of volume :P[/quote The .01 price war is a trap, don't fall for it. There are lots of reasons it's a bad idea in general, but in your case the biggest is the broker fees you pay for every change. As a new trader your skills and standing are probably lower than your competitor, so it's in his interest to play it out, you pay a lot more fees than he does. It's in your interest to quickly force a narrowing of the margin and make him to focus on one of his other more profitable segments. Once he's gone you can open up the spread again. Secondly it's a time sink, better for long term to grind up your standing.
Ammy Azimuth	Posted - 2010.01.18 00:25:00 - [22] Changing a preexisting order's price through day trading only costs me 100 isk.
Commercant Epique	Posted - 2010.01.18 02:03:00 - [23] Originally by: Wyke Mossari Originally by: Commercant Epique Well starting off I have had to spend a lot of time just sitting and waiting for the .01 ISK war. If I had better skills trained it would be easier as well. My margins are very short...I am just trading lots of volume :P[/quote The .01 price war is a trap, don't fall for it. There are lots of reasons it's a bad idea in general, but in your case the biggest is the broker fees you pay for every change. As a new trader your skills and standing are probably lower than your competitor, so it's in his interest to play it out, you pay a lot more fees than he does. It's in your interest to quickly force a narrowing of the margin and make him to focus on one of his other more profitable segments. Once he's gone you can open up the spread again. Secondly it's a time sink, better for long term to grind up your standing. I actually disagree with you due to the simple fact it is only 100 isk to update pre-existing orders. Unless I am having to update tons of orders (on average I am only having to update 5-6 buy orders and 7-8 sell orders) the amount I am loosing is very minimal. Later on when I actually have some ISK to play around with and having like 20-30 buy/sell orders, this will definitely be more of a problem. But my turn around time is very fast on the items I buy and sell so I'm not updating that many times anyways! :P I'm curious though...what does everyone think about trading t2 components. Am I going to need more liquid ISK to begin investing?
Santana IV	Posted - 2010.01.18 07:27:00 - [24] T2 items are usually low margins, high volume. There's a variety of prices for T2 items, so look 'em up and decide if you can invest. You're starting with very low capital as it is. You can try to "horde" items, too. That can lower the supply of a market and artificially increase demand, thus price. Works particularly well in mission hubs, but I wouldn't try it in anything bigger, as it would be pretty insignificant (unless you're hording them till a price increase). Also, wtf at 100,000 --> 17m in a night. I'm skeptical
Abigail Revizor	Posted - 2010.01.18 07:54:00 - [25] Originally by: Santana IV T2 items are usually low margins, high volume. There's a variety of prices for T2 items, so look 'em up and decide if you can invest. You're starting with very low capital as it is. You can try to "horde" items, too. That can lower the supply of a market and artificially increase demand, thus price. Works particularly well in mission hubs, but I wouldn't try it in anything bigger, as it would be pretty insignificant (unless you're hording them till a price increase). Also, wtf at 100,000 --> 17m in a night. I'm skeptical Yea just seems t2 is where its at :) For a newer player at least even if the margins are kinda small. I don't have enough isk to invest in things with much higher margins then I am already getting on the t2's I am trading. And about be skeptical :P I am actually quite surprised myself I made that much the first night...however it was mainly from a group of 10 items I bought in a mission hub and transported 23 jumps for about 8 mill isk profit. :P
Daadddy	Posted - 2010.01.19 19:25:00 - [26] I'm still a newb at station trading, but have you considered using contracts to move stuff around? You can get a lot of stuff moved for you for less than a million isk Ive stopped station trading now and I just buy large volumes of materials and contract move them to where I can make my profit.

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