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Carniflex StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.01.19 12:12:00 - [1] I have decision to do between Phoenix and Revelation dreads. So I am posting here to get confirmation for my gut fleeing that Phoenix sucks (feel free to show me why it is not so - if it is not so). Reason why I am considering the Phoenix also is that I have alt who is already flying Chimera and I will want to keep it simple logistically (ie just one type of isotopes to carry around) so if I will go for revelation it will mean that I have to shell out extra 450 mil for Amarr carrier skillbook for my alt also. I have max missile and laser skills and can tank equally well both armor and shields. Alt(s) would have to train abit more for Amarr capitals. I do not like flying capitals btw, but under current sov systems it seems I will have to as the dread blobs seem to be getting more important than in the age of endless POS bashing of old. At first Phoenix does not look that bad on the paper, especially in the area of 100 - 150 km, but most things you have to shoot at can't be painted (contrary to popular belief among one particular dev) so even the capital cruise missiles hit like wet towels. Revelation at least can hit the structures (that usually are very stationary) reasonably well even if those structures have smaller sig radius than 1000m. Although Revelation has some capacitor issues and is more vunerable to neuting. I am open also to suggestions to train for any other dread, but would need first some convincing about how they are more uber than Revelation. Minmatar ones look kinda nice on paper (especially if you look at whole set of dread+carrier) but to train for them they would need to be more than fraction above amarr combination as it is considerably harder for me to get XL size faction projectile ammunition than XL size faction laser crystals. And ofc it's a lot easier to carry those crystals around than XL projectile ammo, but that one is kinda secondary as ammunition, fuel and strontsium is not something I would have to worry about when the dread gets deployed. So am I correct that currently Revelation is the best (or one of the top 2 ones?) dread ? If not then why ? I would be using that dread mostly to sit in the POS spin and look pretty and occasionaly as part of capital blob.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.19 12:35:00 - [2] Look at test server forums, there are some changes going to happen soonish.
Carniflex StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.01.19 12:51:00 - [3] Originally by: Furb Killer Look at test server forums, there are some changes going to happen soonish. Roger that. Will do.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.01.19 13:40:00 - [4] Phoenix will be nerfed even more.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.19 13:49:00 - [5] Edited by: Furb Killer on 19/01/2010 13:50:46 Also dreads get increased signature radius, and a boost to velocity of cap missiles.
Kenpotchi	Posted - 2010.01.19 14:22:00 - [6] I also had the same delema as you. I chose Amarr capitals over caldari for the simple fact that the Revelation is amazing. I understand the pheonix looks good at 100km plus because it always deals the same amout on damage no matter what. The problem with the pheonix is the missile travel time. [Revelation, New Setup 1] Capital Armor Repairer I Armor Explosive Hardener II Armor Kinetic Hardener II Armor Thermic Hardener II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Dual Giga Beam Laser I, Radio XL Dual Giga Beam Laser I, Radio XL Dual Giga Beam Laser I, Radio XL Siege Module I Large Anti-EM Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I With this rev set up the cap is stable at 56% with out the rep running. Dose 1387 DPS and has a volley of 8224 at 150km with radio. Rate of fire is 6 sec rounded up by 0.1. Instentanious damage. Not including drones. [Phoenix, New Setup 1] Damage Control II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Power Diagnostic System II Power Diagnostic System II Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Capital Shield Booster I Photon Scattering Field II Heat Dissipation Field II Ballistic Deflection Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Thunar Citadel Cruise Missile Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Thunar Citadel Cruise Missile Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Thunar Citadel Cruise Missile Siege Module I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I Large Core Defence Field Extender I The pheonix set up is cap stable at 91% with out the rep running. Dose 2612 DPS with a 53634 volley at 150km with cruise. Rate of fire is 20s. The velocity of a cruise missile is 5250m/s. 1000 meeters equals 1 km. Do the math and it will take your first volley of missiles 28.5 seconds to hit the target. Not including drones. In short teh Rev will fire 3 times and hit for damage even befor the first volley of missiles get there. So the rev is actualy doing 4161 DPS with a volley of 24672 compared to the pheonix at the same distence with long range amo. So my point is the rev will beat the pheonix in DPS no matter the distence but it only dose less then half of the pheonix volley.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.19 14:27:00 - [7] Edited by: Furb Killer on 19/01/2010 14:27:13 Rev will fire 3 times before first volley hit, but after the first one hits travel time of missiles does not play a role anymore (per target obviously), so your dps of 4k doesnt make sense. Also fit kinetic missiles.
Kenpotchi	Posted - 2010.01.19 15:04:00 - [8] Edited by: Kenpotchi on 19/01/2010 15:09:32 Forgot the pheonix got that bonus to kinetic missiles. Unfortunetly for the Pheonix most if not all control towers have a natural 20-25% resis to kinetic damage. So the 25% increase to kinetic missile damage that the pheonix gives is pretty much negated. Thats why the moros is sad for hitting POSs but is awesome for anti capital work. Yes after the first volley the Pheonix makes up for the filght time but the Rev also dosent need to reload. while the Pheonix is reloading, shot its volley and hits the target 20 seconds has gone by while the rev has shot the target 3x. So as your point is valad but it holds no ground in the debate. Edit: Math
Anisa Schardl	Posted - 2010.01.19 15:28:00 - [9] More than that, in any sort of decent size capital fight, capitals don't survive that long after being called primary. It's not uncommon for the target to be dead before your first missile volley even hits it. Even if it's still alive, you will always be approximately 2x volleys behind the other dreads in terms of damage on target. If it's a small fight, that's not a problem, since the phoenix does more damage from long ranges than the other dreads. In medium and up, you will get more damage on target with a Rev or Moros before said target dies. For shooting at pos's, sov structures, or titans, none of that is relevant due to the high hp.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.19 15:48:00 - [10] Edited by: Furb Killer on 19/01/2010 15:49:43 Edited by: Furb Killer on 19/01/2010 15:49:18 Reloading lowers its dps by arround 7%, that is completely unrelated to the flight time issue. While I am not a phoenix pilot myself, and have to admit i didnt study the changes on sisi, i think it is fair to say phoenix is very good at short range or low dps/high ehp situation, and very bad at long range or high dps/low ehp situations, and everything in between. Edit: Rev is ugly though, i would never spend over a billion on such an ugly ship.

Ap0ll0n Gallente Lone Star Joint Venture Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2010.01.19 15:48:00 - [11] Well, there is a reason why some alliances ban the Phoenix from fleets. Its pretty much the same issue with sniping ravens.
Carniflex StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.01.19 16:32:00 - [12] Edited by: Carniflex on 19/01/2010 16:33:49 Originally by: Ap0ll0n Well, there is a reason why some alliances ban the Phoenix from fleets. Its pretty much the same issue with sniping ravens. Well mine does not ban phoenix pilots from fleets outright but when there is capital blob moving phoenix pilots get often question 'when will you start training for real dread' ;). Actually I think the 'raven in fleet' analogue is quite accurate for this one. Will you bring Apoc or will you bring Raven. Phoenix sure has some uses and it is better to have phoenix than one less dread (same as it's better to have raven in fleet than no battleship at all). Was just wondering if I am missing something and some Phoenix pilot can enlighten me about that how Phoenix does not suck. In everyday life in EVE the range advantage of Phoenix is even less useful than Raven's uber range in fleets as you will be sitting there with the rest of dreads at approx 50-60 km from your target. Unlike Raven tho the Phoenix is not ok at all for anti support stuff. Amarr it seems to be then. Just have to hold my thumbs that some Titan decides to pop that Chimera my alt is flying in this campaign and I can get the insurance without having to self destruct for it. Edit: And reloading was good point I did not think about earlier. With the hamsters being as they are currently it sure sucks when your guns get stuck reloading. One more plus for Revelation.
Kenpotchi	Posted - 2010.01.19 16:51:00 - [13] Edited by: Kenpotchi on 19/01/2010 16:54:56 Originally by: Furb Killer Edited by: Furb Killer on 19/01/2010 15:49:43 Edited by: Furb Killer on 19/01/2010 15:49:18 Reloading lowers its dps by arround 7%, that is completely unrelated to the flight time issue. While I am not a phoenix pilot myself, and have to admit i didnt study the changes on sisi, i think it is fair to say phoenix is very good at short range or low dps/high ehp situation, and very bad at long range or high dps/low ehp situations, and everything in between. Edit: Rev is ugly though, i would never spend over a billion on such an ugly ship. Once damage is applied by the Pheonix the missiles will hit every 8 seconds after. the rev on the other hand has a rate of fire of 6 sec. You didnt happen to factor in the 2sec to that did you? 2 sec dosent seem to be much but they add up over say the 15 min per siege cycle. There are 15 missiles in the launcher. (15x2=)30seconds differece threw out that siege cycle. The Pheonix emptys its launchers in (20secx15=) 5min. The pheonix will have to reload 2x during the cycle. So that turns out to be 50 seconds. Speaking in therms of pure DPS the pheonix then loses (sence I dont have a calculator to figure this all out) more then the 7% you speak of. I am in no way putting down the pheonix. Just making people realize that the flight time and ROF matter when factoring EFT DPS into a actual senario. Edit: The Rev looks better then what looks like a giant metalic tird that the pheonix looks like. Quality >>>> Looks I say.
Max Tux	Posted - 2010.01.19 18:15:00 - [14] try fitting missile speed rigs, they really make a difference, and don't say it has less DPS lol. try this [Phoenix, fit 1] Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Ballistic Control System II Co-Processor II Damage Control II Capital Shield Booster I Shield Boost Amplifier II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Thunar Citadel Cruise Missile Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Thunar Citadel Cruise Missile Citadel Cruise Launcher I, Thunar Citadel Cruise Missile Siege Module I Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters I over 2 mill HP with overload and gang bonus. regens 89 cap/second. ( means faster jump) 7400~m/s missiles, 100km in 13 seconds. with missile velocity implant with 5% 7780~m/s , 100km in 12.5~ seconds. DPS is over twice the rev fit you posted, already including reload, and using non kinetic missiles. once they sort out the sig radius of caps ( next patch i hope) then this ship will shine.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.19 18:18:00 - [15] Quote: You didnt happen to factor in the 2sec to that did you? Euhm, that is allready factored in the DPS, only reload time and initial flight time is not in dps, ROF is.
King Dave The Asha'man	Posted - 2010.01.19 18:28:00 - [16] Revelation definately: [Revelation, New Setup 1] Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Tracking Enhancer II Capital Armor Repairer I Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Cap Recharger II Cap Recharger II Dual Giga Beam Laser I, Blood Radio XL Dual Giga Beam Laser I, Blood Radio XL Dual Giga Beam Laser I, Blood Radio XL Siege Module I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I Large Trimark Armor Pump I "Evil Edna > just get director roles, put child **** in the corp bio and then petition ccp"
Carniflex StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.01.19 18:30:00 - [17] Yes it is longest range dread doing quite reliably damage out to approx 220 km (can't remember what, but third rig is something else). It's just that dreads engage stuff usually at 50-100 km range. However if you want max ehp it would be better to fit shield extender rigs. Any dread can do a bit over 2 mil ehp if fitting for that. As far as capital missiles being 'ok' after they up the pos structure sigs - I am not quite buying into that. Stuff like losing damage if your missiles hit outside siege (even if you launched them while in siege), delayed damage, having to reload, inability to hit most stuff for any reasonable damage (don't know if they up the sig of sov structures and stations also) and serious problems hitting anything that actually happens to move. The capital missiles might be a bit better after the upping of POS gun signatures but I don't see the change to be enough to make it better than Revelation.
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.01.19 18:40:00 - [18] My understanding is that in large cap fights, organised fleets designate separate targets for missiles. EFT suggests that ~33 Phoenixes will one-volley another Dread, meaning that the delayed-damage issue would be less of a problem.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.01.19 20:38:00 - [19] Edited by: Sokratesz on 19/01/2010 20:39:55 Rev vs phoenix is a close one in my book. The revelation has low DPS for a dread and you need to pay close attention to your cap. Phoenix has great DPS on both long and short range and doesn't need any cap for its weapons. Currently its a bit of the suck because of the citadel missiles, but they are getting fixed/buffed in dominion 1.1 Don't listen to the naysayers about flight time - I flew a phoenix in the J2 fight last year and by clever timing and target selection did very well in terms of damage output, according to the AAA killboard I did the most effective damage to all dreads killed. (youtube vid) The phoenix is also a very flexible dread - you can fit two sensorboosters and 4 damage mod without making much sacrifices. Want to test a supercap on SISI but don't have one?
Don Pellegrino Helljumpers Aeternus.	Posted - 2010.01.20 02:57:00 - [20] Phoenix is getting boosted soon (and POS's will have a bigger sig radius, so they will always take full damage from citadel torps/cruises), but I'm pretty sure the Rev will still be the best.

Carniflex StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.01.21 05:51:00 - [21] There is line in patch notes that caught my attention: "Citadel Torpedoes and Citadel Cruise Missiles have been balanced with their turret counterparts to ensure they are doing the damage they are supposed to." Anyone know what that tweak is about ? Do this mean change in base damage or is something done to the explosion velocity and missile signature, in addition to other changes of making POS gun and dread signatures bigger ?
Carniflex StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.01.21 06:20:00 - [22] Found the notes about in latest devblog about capitals: "XL Turrets / Citadel Torpedoes / Citadel Cruise Missiles XL turrets have been adjusted slightly to ensure their damage is balanced and to give the short range weapons a bit more range. We've also changed several things with the Citadel Torps / Missiles in order to balance these weapons with their turret counterparts. Their new explosion radius', along with the aforementioned signature radius increases, should ensure they are doing the damage they are supposed to. We are also adding faction Citadel Cruise Missiles as well. They will receive the same 10% damage bonus that the current faction citadel torpedoes receive." So it's just a change in explosion radius + increase of sigs for dreads and pos structures. It will make Phoenix suck less I think but not enough to not be still the last dread among them.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.01.21 13:24:00 - [23] Edited by: Naomi Knight on 21/01/2010 13:25:12 Originally by: Carniflex Found the notes about in latest devblog about capitals: "XL Turrets / Citadel Torpedoes / Citadel Cruise Missiles XL turrets have been adjusted slightly to ensure their damage is balanced and to give the short range weapons a bit more range. We've also changed several things with the Citadel Torps / Missiles in order to balance these weapons with their turret counterparts. Their new explosion radius', along with the aforementioned signature radius increases, should ensure they are doing the damage they are supposed to. We are also adding faction Citadel Cruise Missiles as well. They will receive the same 10% damage bonus that the current faction citadel torpedoes receive." So it's just a change in explosion radius + increase of sigs for dreads and pos structures. It will make Phoenix suck less I think but not enough to not be still the last dread among them. Yep and citadel torp launcher rof changed from 26 to 34 sec, that is 30% dps loss for torp fit. Or what was in the test forums.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.21 13:52:00 - [24] That is less than 25% loss in dps, and looking at their raw dps it is kinda logical they nerfed that when they boosted the sig radius of stuff.
Natasha Nikolaev	Posted - 2010.01.21 20:54:00 - [25] Originally by: Furb Killer That is less than 25% loss in dps, and looking at their raw dps it is kinda logical they nerfed that when they boosted the sig radius of stuff. torps also got a much more significant range boost in 1.1 than the 3 short range xl turrets.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2010.01.21 21:32:00 - [26] Originally by: Furb Killer That is less than 25% loss in dps, and looking at their raw dps it is kinda logical they nerfed that when they boosted the sig radius of stuff. Which is an incredibly huge amount, 25%. Not something you just shrug off. However, someone said cit torps got more dmg instead.
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.21 21:50:00 - [27] I just was pointing out that 30% was huge overstatement.
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.01.22 15:09:00 - [28] And they will now hit out to 60-ish km without range mods which is kind of pwn. The DPS loss is doable, they were doing a whole lot to a huge sig, now they do a bit less but the sig of all their targets has been buffed, net result = not much changed. (except range!) Want to test a supercap on SISI but don't have one?
Gypsio III Dirty Filthy Perverts	Posted - 2010.01.22 16:41:00 - [29] Originally by: Furb Killer That is less than 25% loss in dps, and looking at their raw dps it is kinda logical they nerfed that when they boosted the sig radius of stuff. The "30%" DPS loss came from me and my failmaths. As noted, the correct figure is less than 25% - 23.5%, I make it this time.
Mister LEM0NS	Posted - 2010.01.22 16:46:00 - [30] I think the question your asking is level 5 missions or PVP. Then again, i know nothing of cap ships

Liang Nuren Perkone	Posted - 2010.01.22 17:15:00 - [31] Originally by: Sokratesz And they will now hit out to 60-ish km without range mods which is kind of pwn. The DPS loss is doable, they were doing a whole lot to a huge sig, now they do a bit less but the sig of all their targets has been buffed, net result = not much changed. (except range!) 60km range and actually applying some damage. Are smartbombing carriers still the epic problem that they used to be? How are faction cruise - presumably it's cruise so it deals crap damage 60 seconds after the target dies well beyond lock range. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire www.kwikdeath.org
Sokratesz	Posted - 2010.01.22 23:52:00 - [32] cruises are just **** dps torps now travel a lot faster and got their hp boosted so you need like 5 well-timed smartbombs to kill it, and a whole lot more if not timed that well Want to test a supercap on SISI but don't have one?
Carniflex StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.01.23 11:20:00 - [33] I went with Revelation as I'm in the Stain area so it's a lot easier for me to get hold of Sansha XL crystals than than faction XL missiles. Fuel I have to import either way. Plus in alliance fit Phoenix has crappiest cap recharge and I don't like the idea of being last dread to jump out when traveling (or having to rely on escort carriers to get cap up fast enough for jump). In reality I will be spinning in the POS shield most of the time and looking at stars either way when deployed somewhere. I will prolly train up also Phoenix after getting skills up for Revelation as it's only few weeks extra but I will not get myself personal one. Just good to have in case the current dread goes pop and corp does not happen to have revelation for replacement at hand at that moment. Revelations seem to be somewhat more popular in the south.
squishinator Arcana Imperii Ltd. Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2010.01.24 07:10:00 - [34] Trust me, U'll be the last to jump out if u fly rev on a capital op, hey but rev will get U on more killmails, since in the laggy capital fleet fight revs don't need to reload the ammo which will save U tons of grief. Besides Rev can snipe fit as well. As for your " DPS", during most of the capital fleet engagement, your guns or missiles will most likely need to cycle once or twice before the target is gone, so yes, rev is a better choice.
Carniflex StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2010.01.24 08:22:00 - [35] Originally by: squishinator Trust me, U'll be the last to jump out if u fly rev on a capital op, hey but rev will get U on more killmails, since in the laggy capital fleet fight revs don't need to reload the ammo which will save U tons of grief. Besides Rev can snipe fit as well. As for your " DPS", during most of the capital fleet engagement, your guns or missiles will most likely need to cycle once or twice before the target is gone, so yes, rev is a better choice. Not having to reload was also quite serious plus for the Revelation. In theory Phoenix is kinda nice even if you take reload times into account but considering all the cases of late when your guns get 'stuck' when there is any kind of of more than 50 vs 50 fight going on it should remove one of the very annoying dangers of gun getting stuck when reloading. Ofc they can still get stuck when your target dies if you are on autorepeat (in that sense phoenix is better as when you have autorepeat off it has higher volley damage) but so far it has seemed to me it's not as bad case usually as when you try to reload. Reloading or switching ammo or scripts seems to really mess one up if the serverlemmings are running off the cliff.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2010.01.24 10:56:00 - [36] Yep phoenix needs a boost.


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