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Cearain
Caldari
ReSlavers
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Posted - 2010.01.25 16:30:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Garbad theWeak
Edited by: Garbad theWeak on 20/01/2010 22:27:05
Salvage/Loot value is based on lowest sell price in Jita at the time of completion.
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This is what I think you really need to do a better job in your calculations. You just pretend that money is in your wallet when it isn't. You do not include any travel time to jita. Do you get a hauler or what? That takes quite a bit of time hauling all that crap - and lets face it - doing high sec level 4 missions yields allot of crap.
Also I think if you are going to count the sales price at zero you should use the highest buy price. Assuming you pace out your jita runs so you can fill an industrial or 2 how are you going to actually place sell orders for every piece of junk you have? How many sell orders do you have skills for? How long does it take to make sure you are the lowest by a penny or whatever? Are you then going to keep an alt in jita to keep lowering your prices every time someone undercuts you by a nickle? Or are you going to simply wait/hope that doesn't happen too often.
I think level fours are a good way to make money. But because of all this extra hassle that no one ever seems to calculate I do not think they are overpowered.
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Cearain
Caldari
ReSlavers
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Posted - 2010.01.26 16:24:00 -
[2]
Until the money is in your wallet you did not make that much money. Missioning yields allot of lp, loot, and salvage that you then have to haul around and play the market with. These calcaluations pretend that takes no time. When you start to build that time in you will see missioning is a decent way to make money but not overpowered.
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Cearain
Caldari
ReSlavers
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Posted - 2010.01.27 14:48:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Cearain
Until the money is in your wallet you did not make that much money. Missioning yields allot of lp, loot, and salvage that you then have to haul around and play the market with. These calcaluations pretend that takes no time. When you start to build that time in you will see missioning is a decent way to make money but not overpowered.
Just because you chose to do stuff inefficiently doesn't mean the rest of us have to....
...
It doesn't matter what I do. What matters is how the op is calculating his income. He is calculating his income based on jita *sell* prices for the loot. But he is not calculating *any* time to haul and sell the stuff.
If you are going to take the lowest *sell* price of jita of all your loot - which this calcualtion does - then you need to calculate the time spent hauling and readjusting your prices. If you just reprocess it and dump it at your mission station at the highest *buy* price then I agree the time is less. But the money is much less. You are saying you do something different than what the op says he does. If you try to actually sell that stuff - including the salvage - at the lowest sell price at your mission station you will be waiting a long time and spending time messing with the market. What you do is different than the calculations here.
You say you only sell a "few" meta 4 items the rest gets recycled. How much time did you spend figuring this out? How much time do you spend trying to look at different contracts researching what to by in the lp store? If you don't count this time you are not getting an accurate figure of how much you make/hour.
For example if I shoot rats in null sec I instatntly get the bounties. I may pick up some choice items to sell on contract as well. But I can just check that item or simply put it up for auction. I don't need to spend *any* time researching what to buy at an lp store or whether I should reprocess this or that item. We see allot of people saying those who get lower returns on there lp need to do more research. They are given a link that has has a database pages and pages of hundreds of different items. Of course that databse doesn't say what the prices are. You have to go into the contracts for each of the prices and then calculate the return figure out how much the tags and other items cost etc. This time needs to be accounted for. But its not in any of these isk/hour calculations. Add to the fact that this is extremely tedious work and you start to see that high sec mission running isn't really all that great. I'm not saying its bad, but its not exactly easy money either.
Calculate all the time the average mission runner spends trying to get the most isk for their time and I think you will find your isk/hour figures drop.
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Cearain
Caldari
ReSlavers
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Posted - 2010.01.27 16:04:00 -
[4]
The op does not say he uses the jita sell price of the minerals. He just says the loot. In your calculations are you reprocessing meta 4 stuff?
When I put my salvage up for sale in black rise it tends to sit for a very long time. I usually would have to cancel about half the orders before it sold sold becasue I do not have allot of trade skills. I had to move all the crap to jita if I wanted to really get the stuff moved without hassling around with the market. Moving loot and salvage does not take a negligible amount of time if you want to get the jita sale price for it. It does take a negligible amount of time if you just dump it in your mission station for the highest buy bid. But neither you or the op calculate that.
It doesn't take brains to sift through hundreds of lp store items and compare the prices in contracts. It takes time.
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Cearain
Caldari
ReSlavers
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Posted - 2010.01.27 17:37:00 -
[5]
It sounds like you have a decent way of doing things. If you do your research get some money to invest in what you need then you can make decent money in eve. Whether this be through running missions or doing trade or wormholes etc. The thing is many people often look for a change of pace from time to time. So by the time you can fly that golem and have those perfect reprocessing and trade skills, researched all the lp items and sale prices of meta 3 and 4 items... well you may not want to mission anymore. : )
Again I'm not saying its bad money but if you want to do pvp and train things other than social skills, trade skills, missile skills, and scrap metal processing - its not cake.
You may be able to fit allot of salvage in a cruiser cargo but you wont fit all the reprocessed minerals.
1 day trade alt? What do you train in one day?
I guess what I'm saying is yes there are people who after 6 months of research, skill training, trial and error, and general learning about missions can make a decent amount of money. But lets not pretend that research and learning about how to maximize income from missions is just common sense that soemone who never heard of eve would know. Its not. Its information that people who spent *time* learning and researching know. None of that time is calculated in here. Hell even the time it takes to get a top notch level four agent and the logistics of moving your stuff from one station to another is time consuming and boring. Does the agent that you finally can get missions from always give a missions a system away? Bummer lets load all the crap back up and go to another agent.
What many of these "isk per hour" calculations do is say once you have completed *all* this preliminary work, done the standings grinds, found out the best lp returns, trained the right skills and are now doing the creme de le creme of mission running then... assuming you have not grown tired missioning.... you can make 30 or 40 or 50 (whatever) mill isk per hour. Where as it sounds like in null sec you get in just about any old ship shoot some rats and the money just appears in your wallet.
Also, I suppose no one here *ever* lost a ship doing missions.
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Cearain
Caldari
ReSlavers
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Posted - 2010.01.27 18:58:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer
Edited by: Irdia Freelancer on 27/01/2010 18:05:31
6 months research? ... A new player can hit the right targets with a couple of hours research if they so choose. Many players have given very good advice in what to look for in your research what lp to get and an enquiring type will be able to take that advice and find out for themselves in an hour or two. Players that want everything spelled out for them without doing any reasearch at all, now they may spend 6 months looking and still not find stuff.
6 months is not a stop watch type time. What I mean is at different times in eve you may be interested in different things. You will get info about different things. Whether its flying a certain ship for pvp or industry or worm holes etc. So for me - medium active player- it would take about 6 months maybe more before I would start making the 40+ mil isk doing missions.
What skills do you need to mission? What ships are best for pve? Where are the various resources? How do you tank different rats? What dps is best for different rats? How do you get different agents? What agents give which missions? What corp should I start working for? What do I do with all the loot? How do I afford all the different hardeners and ships? Whats the best way to transport the stuff? I could go on and on. You can do all sorts of searches for this information and you will get the information - some faster than others. (although as far as lp values you may find your info is dated) But you won't be learning anything about pvp. You will be learning stuff that is really only relevant to missioning. It all may seem easy to you now but try to remember when you first started missioning.
No one can start running level 4 missions in a few hours, unless you have a friend with standings who can get the missions for you. You have to grind up. Then you may find that yeah although caldari navy has allot of level 4 agents the lp sucks. Start grinding another corp.
Unlike going to a null sec belt, shooting some rats and watching your wallet grow as you collect bounties missioning takes set up, work and yes research. This I believe is one of the big reasons many people whine about it. They don't want to take the time to grind up standings and look for which corp to go to, move all the crap they need to do missions, figure out how to run each mission efficiently. Nor do they want to train scrap metal processing connections negotiations and the various other skills for missioning. Nor do they want to save up for a golem and the faction equipment that you need to run these efficiently.
People who make 40+ mill per hour missioning have spent *allot* of time figuring out how to do them right. I lost a few fully fitted ravens in level 4s when I was learning. I did get it down where I could do them consistantly without losing ships. But soon after that I sort of got tired of missioning - regardless of isk/hr. I may go back to doing high sec missions I may not, but its not something anyone is going to be able to spend a few hours learning about and then start making 40 mill per hour.
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Cearain
Caldari
ReSlavers
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Posted - 2010.01.27 19:21:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer
Edited by: Irdia Freelancer on 27/01/2010 18:05:31
An experienced missions runner who knows the mission can take almost any mission and run it solo without ship loss even with a 14 day old char so the lvl 4's are not very hard once you learn to run lvl 4's. .....
The ships I lost were sometimes do to real life things happening. But you know real life happens. I never lost a ship due to real life happing when I was doing trading.
I think you may be exagerating about 14 days to do level 4s. But here is the thing. You have to be an *experienced* mission runner. In a way that is what is good about missions. Its a fairly complex part of the game. It takes some knowledge and some skills and some research and the more of these you have the more money you can make. If you are an *experienced* trader you can most likely make allot more isk per hour trading with a 14 day old character than you can running missions.
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Cearain
Caldari
ReSlavers
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Posted - 2010.01.27 19:31:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
so you go to school and work a ****ty job making minimum wage, you then graduate and get a job that pays 20 an hour. your income now is 20 and hour and not some zombie composite of your two wages.
likewise the time I spent learning the game and flying a torp cnr 2 years ago has no effects on the current isk/hour I make.
If I can take one of 2 jobs that are in all relevant way equivalent except one requires a me to spend extra time and expense for schooling (or some other boring activity) then I take the one without the prereqs. You have to consider that time an investment. There is nothing wrong with eve rewarding those who invest their time and skills into being good mission runners. I think if there was no experience/setup/skills/knowledge required at all to do an activity in eve, yet it yielded more isk per hour than any other activity then that is a different situation.
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Cearain
Caldari
ReSlavers
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Posted - 2010.01.27 19:45:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Cearain
If you are an *experienced* trader you can most likely make allot more isk per hour trading with a 14 day old character than you can running missions.
QFT. I know this for fact - except it doesn't require you being an experienced trader. Just requires startup capital. ;-)
-Liang
Well cosnider the amounts of money spent on ships rigs and mods to do level 4s. Instead of spending that isk on a ship and various hardeners, call it start up capital.
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Cearain
Caldari
ReSlavers
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Posted - 2010.01.28 16:32:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer
What is needed to learn how to mission for over 40 mil isk/hr in hi-sec?
1. - have high skilled char in twinked out ship
2. - or find a good agent with good lp-> isk conversion and run lots of missions with.
Now 1. takes time and isk to do. But 2. can be done quite quickly and without much research.
Thanks for the good tip on how to get good lp. Keep in mind though option 2 is only good if you already have high standings with the corp with agent you find. If you don't then you have to relocate your base several times as you grind up standings to get the good agent. If by that time lp are still valuable then yes you will make money. If not you just wasted your time. I don't do allot of missioning, but I would think that if a certain lp item is going for allot of isk/lp people will eventually see that and start trading in it. Then supply catches up with demand and you can't ask the high prices anymore.
I'm not saying you don't regularly make that much - I think you probably can. But if you can jump to various level 4 agents in various corps then you have spent a good deal of time grinding up agents and I don't think 40-50mill isk per hour is too much given the time you put into it. Just my two cents.
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Cearain
Caldari
ReSlavers
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Posted - 2010.01.28 19:43:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 28/01/2010 17:03:16
Just FYI, but what makes a particular LP store more lucrative isn't the items themselves, but their cost.
-Liang
Ed: And as a general rule, the gross from a specific item doesn't change much unless CCP changes something. So same gross - less costs = more profit = more ISK/LP.
At least for high sec missions I thought the lp costs were about the same for each item. Is it the tags that might be selling for less? I never really checked into the costs of the various tags.
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