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To those who complain about the lag monster

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Daquaris Novus Aevum Dominatus Novus Aevum	Posted - 2010.01.25 18:17:00 - [31] Originally by: SupaKudoRio Or use bots for internal mass testing like every other MMO company does. I'm just curious, what's your source on this? Oh, let me guess, you're a game designer for a major MMO, amiright?
Jovialmadness	Posted - 2010.01.25 18:21:00 - [32] I am officially announcing that I am complaining about complainers complaining about complainers.
Lord Xantoh	Posted - 2010.01.25 19:01:00 - [33] Originally by: Korizan Originally by: Mistress Servelan ..because we pay to do their job. k. I love responses like this. How do you propose they simulate 1400 people fighting in one system who are logging in around the world ? Good morning and welcome to the software industry...!
Sawyer LaFleur	Posted - 2010.01.25 19:25:00 - [34] Originally by: MAXSuicide lets go one better and ask them why they they are moaning and crying in disbelief at the fact they cant all have perfect gameplay when theres 3000 in a system at once. And thats just one location of many where huge-scale fighting is taking place. Of course things won't work perfectly but to me, its what happens when things start to go awry that matters. Having mal effects unevenly distriubted and still losing ships when things freeze up is what rubs me wrong and makes it unintrestign to get really involved with. If everyone's drones stopped working all at once an/or it was know that as load started incresing various feauters would diabled one by one in a known sequence .. if things were frozen and a restuart time were given etc it would be another matter.. Theer are all sorts of inbetweens between perfect funcitonality ant the really uncompetively enticing way things go wrong now.
Magnus Orin Minmatar United Systems Navy Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2010.01.25 19:35:00 - [35] Originally by: Ai Mei Where were you when ccp Tanis asked for everyone to come to the test server to re-create fleet battles? where were you when he asked for everyone to do a huge stress test? I was there and I saw more people from empire / low sec / faction warfare alliances than I did 0.0 alliances. So instead of complaining and starting up unlimited forum threads, why not ask CCP to organize another test server stress test with you alliances and hopefully find it. And you know maybe try to actually help ccp by sending feed back of what you were doing, what was going on around you, location and system stats so they can make a full analysis. We were to busy testing it on Tranquility, live. Get off your high horse just because you showed up to some SiSi test event. We test this game night by night, week by week in live conditions. If CCP can't adjsut their game based on that, that's their problem, but lose the attitude kid. also, don't you hate those people that trick you into thinking their signature is part of their post?
Ban Doga	Posted - 2010.01.25 19:50:00 - [36] Originally by: Korizan Originally by: Mistress Servelan ..because we pay to do their job. k. I love responses like this. How do you propose they simulate 1400 people fighting in one system who are logging in around the world ? You can rent hardware, you know. You don't have to buy a single piece of it. Wanna use 100 machines to simulate 300 clients for 2 hours? No problem, such services are readily available. Sure they cost money and you need to setup an automated client (without any user interface) but I think the creator of a protocol should be capable of simulating any client interaction he wants. And why would they need 1400 (simulated) clients anyway. The first mass test was about 100 vs 100 with a large-ish sleeper spawn between them. The difference between Apocrypha and Dominion was quite overwhelming in that situation. But sure, deploying a patch and testing it afterwards is fine. I mean how dare the customers suggest doing it differently or even complain that the developer would need their help for finding the source ...
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.01.25 20:28:00 - [37] Originally by: Hakaru Ishiwara 1) Why is CCP not using the production server data to understand and resolve this issue? Participation levels vastly exceed what has been requested for these tests and just about every test case scenario is being executed for CCP observers, data collectors and analysts. Probably because logging all that stuff in a "live" battle on Tranquility would crash the system even faster than what happen today, possibly helping one side of the battle. People running logserver during a live battle would help a lot CCP but probably they would crash before people non running it, so again testing stuff on a live battle on Tranquility is not a good idea. Originally by: Hakaru Ishiwara Additionally, this "live" testing in non-production environments could easily be mimicked by CCP employees on their lunch break if all they need is 50 pilots. There is little of greater importance then fixing this show-stopping performance plague, atm. Because they need 500 (and not 50) people, with as many different machines as possible and all of them running logserver and one client.
Ban Doga	Posted - 2010.01.25 20:46:00 - [38] Edited by: Ban Doga on 25/01/2010 20:47:45 Edited by: Ban Doga on 25/01/2010 20:46:13 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Hakaru Ishiwara 1) Why is CCP not using the production server data to understand and resolve this issue? Participation levels vastly exceed what has been requested for these tests and just about every test case scenario is being executed for CCP observers, data collectors and analysts. Probably because logging all that stuff in a "live" battle on Tranquility would crash the system even faster than what happen today, possibly helping one side of the battle. People running logserver during a live battle would help a lot CCP but probably they would crash before people non running it, so again testing stuff on a live battle on Tranquility is not a good idea. Doesn't sound worse than having daily node crashes. Are you really trying to say that adding more strain to a node that will die anyway is unfairer then letting it die without gathering additional data? How is one uncontrolled crash more "possibly helping one side" than another? Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Hakaru Ishiwara Additionally, this "live" testing in non-production environments could easily be mimicked by CCP employees on their lunch break if all they need is 50 pilots. There is little of greater importance then fixing this show-stopping performance plague, atm. Because they need 500 (and not 50) people, with as many different machines as possible and all of them running logserver and one client. Originally by: CCP Tanis The test will begin Wednesday, January 27 at 5pm UTC. They are expected to last for about 1 hour. We need at least 50 pilots, preferably 200+à the more people who show up, the better. Apparently 50 people will do the trick, otherwise he would have said we need at least 500 pilots... No? And there was no requirement for having "as many different machines as possible" either or are you suggesting that an XP machine will cause more (maybe different, eh) lag than a Vista one or vice versa?
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2010.01.25 21:14:00 - [39] Ban, I would do a little research before you embarass yourself further. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
Ban Doga	Posted - 2010.01.25 21:16:00 - [40] Originally by: Ranger 1 Ban, I would do a little research before you embarass yourself further. Again, would you please point out which part of my posting you are referring to?

Prez21 Resonance. Ghost Wing.	Posted - 2010.01.25 21:35:00 - [41] Originally by: MAXSuicide Originally by: Batolemaeus Originally by: MAXSuicide Can anyone also point out to me a game where such numbers can play together? i dont believe there is one. Eve Online, pre dominion. uhm.. No. I think you will find that the server was performing a whole lot better before dominion, and 800 ppl in system was very playable, 3000 will never be playable in one system but 0.0 alliances dont seem to want to accept this for some reason and carry on filling systems with as many people as possble. But all this doesnt take away from the fact that the game is in a worse state now than before and ccp need to fix this.
Ban Doga	Posted - 2010.01.25 21:40:00 - [42] Edited by: Ban Doga on 25/01/2010 21:42:33 Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 25/01/2010 21:22:22 Ban, I would do a little research before you embarass yourself further. There have been cases where CCP has warned the public that they were forced to run more logging software than normal and that it would further degrade performance on the live server. This is a tempest in a tea cup compared to the response that brought about. So no, implementing such protocols on the live server is only done as a last resort. And yes, there is software that will help simulate load on a system. That is useful for certain things and is used routinely. However, that is a far cry from having 1500 people all doing different things at different times in a typical EVE environment. Testing before a patch goes live can only uncover so much. 50,000 people logged in at the same time can make even the most stable seeming piece of code preform in unexpected ways. So yes, occasionally people are asked if they will volunteer a little bit of time to help track something important down that can only be done with live testers. If you don't want to help, fine. Just get the hell out of the way while the rest of us try to do something helpful for the rest of the community. *Edit: Sorry for the late edit. Again, would you please point out which part of my posting you are referring to? Edit: First of all: I did show up at the first mass test and stayed till the very end. No need for the "Just get the hell out of the way while the rest of us try to do something helpful for the rest of the community". I even wrote in the feedback thread for this test. So you can drop your aggressive behaviour based on the assumption I'm not doing what I can do to help. Maybe you should do some research before making such a statement. Second: Not even Jita has 1500 people in local and when you read the threads about node crashes last week you can see they die well before that many people entered the system. No need to quote absurd numbers when 200 people made a huge difference in the first test on SISI. Maybe this is not a situation for "last resort" measures but nodes dying on a daily basis and several unexpected downtimes in just a few days does sounds rather severe to me. I know in the past patches deleted files on your computer and the system was unavailable for days. All peanuts we're having this time, I'm feeling much better already... Mahhhhhhhhhhhhhh, I wanted to edit my previous post...
MAXSuicide Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings	Posted - 2010.01.25 22:38:00 - [43] Edited by: MAXSuicide on 25/01/2010 22:40:21 Originally by: Prez21 Originally by: MAXSuicide Originally by: Batolemaeus Originally by: MAXSuicide Can anyone also point out to me a game where such numbers can play together? i dont believe there is one. Eve Online, pre dominion. uhm.. No. I think you will find that the server was performing a whole lot better before dominion, and 800 ppl in system was very playable, 3000 will never be playable in one system but 0.0 alliances dont seem to want to accept this for some reason and carry on filling systems with as many people as possble. But all this doesnt take away from the fact that the game is in a worse state now than before and ccp need to fix this. 800 people part: hence why i said CCP have taken great strides in my first post. each of the major complaint episodes we've had since dominion has been about battles where over 1500 people have been in a system at once - at the same time as at least 2 other wars are going on with similar numbers hanging about in their respective one system battles too. Its no suprise then that the game is struggling to cope. We're basically in agreement. People's mindset needs to change, and perhaps the mechanics need to be adjusted further; as some have suggested, maybe several structures need to be hit at the same time across multiple systems - would stretch these numbers out and probably make it more bearable and fun at the same time (more strategy, more people having fun rather than seeing black/blank screens etc etc) - though the defender would have a huge advantage in that they would probably deploy everything they have to one system and thus stall the entire invasion there and then. but im sure the people at ccp can think of something more balanced.
Savatar Mei	Posted - 2010.01.25 22:40:00 - [44] Edited by: Savatar Mei on 25/01/2010 22:46:52 Originally by: Ai Mei Where were you when ccp Tanis asked for everyone to come to the test server to re-create fleet battles? where were you when he asked for everyone to do a huge stress test? I was there and I saw more people from empire / low sec / faction warfare alliances than I did 0.0 alliances. So instead of complaining and starting up unlimited forum threads, why not ask CCP to organize another test server stress test with you alliances and hopefully find it. And you know maybe try to actually help ccp by sending feed back of what you were doing, what was going on around you, location and system stats so they can make a full analysis. its not OUR job to test Quote: If you aren't getting on sisi for the stress tests, you aren't helping, and have no right to complain. the second i pay them and their product breaks, i have a right to complain.
SupaKudoRio	Posted - 2010.01.25 22:46:00 - [45] Originally by: Daquaris I'm just curious, what's your source on this? Oh, let me guess, you're a game designer for a major MMO, amiright? Nah, I just trained Common Sense to 5. Ask yourself this. What would be the easiest, most reliable way to test for defects? It sure as hell isn't let the playerbase do the testing. --------------- 10/10: Where is your God now?
Doc Fury	Posted - 2010.01.25 23:00:00 - [46] Edited by: Doc Fury on 25/01/2010 23:00:36 As long as CCP is willing to give me a plex as compensation for doing their QA dept's job, I'll make time to be there. crickets Otherwise, they can do what other software development companies do, invest some of their "dust" in a real QA dept that has the tools it needs and a staff that is trained to use them. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.'
Hecatonis	Posted - 2010.01.25 23:07:00 - [47] Originally by: Savatar Mei Edited by: Savatar Mei on 25/01/2010 22:47:38 Originally by: Ai Mei Where were you when ccp Tanis asked for everyone to come to the test server to re-create fleet battles? where were you when he asked for everyone to do a huge stress test? I was there and I saw more people from empire / low sec / faction warfare alliances than I did 0.0 alliances. So instead of complaining and starting up unlimited forum threads, why not ask CCP to organize another test server stress test with you alliances and hopefully find it. And you know maybe try to actually help ccp by sending feed back of what you were doing, what was going on around you, location and system stats so they can make a full analysis. its not OUR job to test Quote: If you aren't getting on sisi for the stress tests, you aren't helping, and have no right to complain. the second i pay them and their product breaks, i have a right to complain, NOT after i perform x, y and z tasks to help them fix it. you must be form the US if you brake it because you where not using it properly or in the way it was intended then no, you don't have the right to complain. if your idea of getting money out of a piggy bank by smashing it with a hammer and then think you can complain that you cant use the piggy bank, then you are an idiot. if you continually do an action knowing full well that it will crash the game then no you dont have the right. your the kinda person that cause costume makers to have to put the tag of the superman outfit "this suit does not let the wearer fly at will"
Savatar Mei	Posted - 2010.01.26 00:59:00 - [48] LOL Now this is funny. Where did I say ANY of those things? Originally by: Hecatonis Originally by: Savatar Mei Edited by: Savatar Mei on 25/01/2010 22:47:38 Originally by: Ai Mei Where were you when ccp Tanis asked for everyone to come to the test server to re-create fleet battles? where were you when he asked for everyone to do a huge stress test? I was there and I saw more people from empire / low sec / faction warfare alliances than I did 0.0 alliances. So instead of complaining and starting up unlimited forum threads, why not ask CCP to organize another test server stress test with you alliances and hopefully find it. And you know maybe try to actually help ccp by sending feed back of what you were doing, what was going on around you, location and system stats so they can make a full analysis. its not OUR job to test Quote: If you aren't getting on sisi for the stress tests, you aren't helping, and have no right to complain. the second i pay them and their product breaks, i have a right to complain, NOT after i perform x, y and z tasks to help them fix it. you must be form the US if you brake it because you where not using it properly or in the way it was intended then no, you don't have the right to complain. if your idea of getting money out of a piggy bank by smashing it with a hammer and then think you can complain that you cant use the piggy bank, then you are an idiot. if you continually do an action knowing full well that it will crash the game then no you dont have the right. your the kinda person that cause costume makers to have to put the tag of the superman outfit "this suit does not let the wearer fly at will"
Rascael Rascaels	Posted - 2010.01.26 01:37:00 - [49] Wow... listen to the trolls and fanboys. Where are the Goons? Every big fleet fight for the last month has ended in massive threads of lag and rollbacks. Sure, the playerbase shouldn't have to do the testing for CCP, but that has been the way this game has been developed for years. The ability to have thousands of live players doing thousands of different things on one node that is fully recorded and monitored seems to be the best shot for finding and addressing the current lag problems. If you don't want to participate... Don't. If you feel that the current issues should be resolved by CCP only and the game is unplayable... Quit. For those that want to see resolution to the current problems, CCP has given you an option to help with the solution.
Herzog Wolfhammer Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2010.01.26 02:53:00 - [50] Where was Gondor...?

Captain Mastiff	Posted - 2010.01.26 09:13:00 - [51] One does not simply walk into mordor! Well CCP could... if all else fails... They could contact known macro miners and offer them a truce... give them another month before their ban if they all log their macros onto sisi haha. Hulkageddon on sisi perhaps. (Not a real proposal) I doubt CCP will get much of a turn out on this 2nd attempt at "large scale fleet battle" when there is no immediate benefit for Eve members then there is no real motive at all. Not even a free day of playtime for everyone who participates. Oh and for those who will undoubtedly say, No... fixing the bugs in CCP's game is not for our benefit when we have to sacrifice our time, not only from our free or unavailable time in our lives but also from the time we would usually spend playing a game we pay for. Waaaaaa.
Von Hinten	Posted - 2010.01.26 09:52:00 - [52] Originally by: Ai Mei Where were you when ccp Tanis asked for everyone to come to the test server to re-create fleet battles? where were you when he asked for everyone to do a huge stress test? I was there and I saw more people from empire / low sec / faction warfare alliances than I did 0.0 alliances. So instead of complaining and starting up unlimited forum threads, why not ask CCP to organize another test server stress test with you alliances and hopefully find it. And you know maybe try to actually help ccp by sending feed back of what you were doing, what was going on around you, location and system stats so they can make a full analysis. Youre mad?
Captain Hooker	Posted - 2010.01.26 10:23:00 - [53] Originally by: Ai Mei Where were you when ccp Tanis asked for everyone to come to the test server to re-create fleet battles? where were you when he asked for everyone to do a huge stress test? I was there and I saw more people from empire / low sec / faction warfare alliances than I did 0.0 alliances. So instead of complaining and starting up unlimited forum threads, why not ask CCP to organize another test server stress test with you alliances and hopefully find it. And you know maybe try to actually help ccp by sending feed back of what you were doing, what was going on around you, location and system stats so they can make a full analysis. I pay to play the game. I do not work for CCP if CCP wants game stuff tested on a large scale they need to hire more staff to so or maybe give something to the player to test the game ie. do so many test hours earn 1 month of eve game time. What your saying if people who bought Ford cars should not complain because they are crappy because they did not test them or give them feedback. Hate to say but the live server is CCP test server
Haramir Haleths Caldari Nutella Bande	Posted - 2010.01.26 10:27:00 - [54] Suggestions for CCP Stress Test Put the Server Software on an old Pentium I machine. And Stress Test it with maybe 10 people. Should have the same effect, i guess
raukosen	Posted - 2010.01.26 11:11:00 - [55] Edited by: raukosen on 26/01/2010 11:14:36 The iHub in JC- comes out during the lagtest Do you expect us to be on SiSi and let them rep it? I'll lol when we crash the TQ node during their lag test Originally by: MAXSuicide 800 people part: hence why i said CCP have taken great strides in my first post. each of the major complaint episodes we've had since dominion has been about battles where over 1500 people have been in a system at once - at the same time as at least 2 other wars are going on with similar numbers hanging about in their respective one system battles too. Its no suprise then that the game is struggling to cope. We're basically in agreement. People's mindset needs to change, and perhaps the mechanics need to be adjusted further; as some have suggested, maybe several structures need to be hit at the same time across multiple systems - would stretch these numbers out and probably make it more bearable and fun at the same time (more strategy, more people having fun rather than seeing black/blank screens etc etc) - though the defender would have a huge advantage in that they would probably deploy everything they have to one system and thus stall the entire invasion there and then. but im sure the people at ccp can think of something more balanced. Pre-dominion was MUCH more playable. Reinforced nodes didn't crash multiple times, people weren't stuck entering game for hours, caps weren't still in space hours after logging off. Even 10 hours after the fight in P-2 was over the node was completely borked, it took downtime to fix it. Their code is f*cked up now just admit it
Abrazzar	Posted - 2010.01.26 11:14:00 - [56] Originally by: raukosen The iHub in JC- comes out during the lagtest Do you expect us to be on SiSi and let them rep it? I'll lol when we crash the TQ node during their lag test Well, then be quick crashing the node and log on SiSi to crash that one, too. --------
Killer Gandry Caldari TerraNovae	Posted - 2010.01.26 11:47:00 - [57] Pffft, I have been on SiSi so many times and guess what. Most of the time people go there to test ship setups for ganking or PvP or just to kill ships without harm to their TQ wallets. The amount of people actually testing is low. I don't mind spending some of my normal gamigtime on helping with testing, however when it comes to it a little give back from CCP to those that actually go to SiSi for testing services would stretch to their credit. I know nobody forces anyone to participate in these tests, however they do come at a cost for the playerbase that actually shows up there. Like pointed out before it's also a question of timezones which alows people to log onto SiSi or not, next to that the turmoil in 0.0 will have a lot of players more bound to defence in their systems than normally. People have to give up something but the little they get back as in information or show of gratitude will not really boast the amount of people to log in to help in yet another mass test. CCP often works like a behemoth in regards to information streams or other things that connects people to testing faulty gaming experiences. If CCP were to be a tad more forthcomming in certain ways I am sure the community would also participate more because a sense of appreciation goes a long way.
Kaylar Glausconju	Posted - 2010.01.26 13:24:00 - [58] Originally by: Ai Mei I was there and I saw more people from empire / low sec / faction warfare alliances than I did 0.0 alliances. I supposed all those cap and titan pilots from NC, Atlas ect where all just a part of my imagination.
CommmanderInChief Unorganised Crime	Posted - 2010.01.26 15:10:00 - [59] tbh have to totally agree with OP...I tried to get a petition together NO ONE even bothered..They didnt bother with the lag test or anything. And you wonder why CCP dont listen or even take you seriously. They probably sat there pi$$ing themselves laughing... Stand up and be counted and show CCP that you want to sort this problem. Instead of having slopy shoulders and saying not my problem..Well know but people are needed in testing anything and needed in large numbers for this issue...So get your fingers our of your Ar$es and do something.. Otherwise stop whining like big girls...
Spurty Caldari Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2010.01.26 15:30:00 - [60] Yah, sadly was in p-2 pew'pewing at both times. So, seems nodes fall over after bombers do their thing. please make sure when you test, 40 people are in bombers and get to BOMB people to death. Never seen a node fall over without a bomb going off seconds before, so hope this helps. Originally by: Hurley I WAS NOT QUITTING SoT AND WAS NOT THINKING ABOUT JOINING IT. PL/SoT MADE A MISTAKE AND ARE NOT MAN ENOUGH TO ADMIT IT OR FIX IT.



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