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Jade Knight07
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Posted - 2010.01.26 08:32:00 -
[1]
I think CCP should do a survey to better understand this issue of griefer corps war decÆing other corps/alliances completely unprovoked. All these suggestion pertain to high sec wars. Maybe even the upper levels of high sec. Such as no fitting can occur in .9 or above systems for instance.
Suggestion 1. Need for a reason. In my opinon there should be a need for a war dec. I propose that you use the aggression events to determine whether or not the Declaration is warranted. How it could work: Keep a log of all aggression events for a set period of time. For instance one week. Keep track or who was the aggressor and who was the victim. Make it so the aggressing corp cannot war dec another corp without adequate cause. Only if a attack was made by corp A against corp B, then corp B could war dec corp A but corp A would not be able to attack corp B.
2. Cost: 50 million is pocket change for the kinds of people who can carry out a griefer war dec. a) The cost of war decs are far to inexpensive. 50 million per week is pocket change. There is no drawback for a small corp of 3+ year old toons to war dec a corp full of noobs. The price should be closer to 500 million a week. Or something like 50 million a day. b) An adaptation to this could be based only daily pay out requirements starting at say, 25 million. Then for every day the victim corp doesnÆt engage the enemy and doesnÆt fire first. This amount doubles. Meaning, day one cost 25 million, day 2 cost 50 million day 3 cost 100 million. This would limit the amount of time a war dec can go on for and balance a very unbalanced system. In this idea, the war would have to be paid for daily by the corp that declared it. And if the victim corp fires on the enemy first then it goes back to the base amount of 25 million and the increasing starts all over again. c) Another idea based on spending isk is allow the other victim corp to out bribe the griefer corp. I.e. it cost 50 million to dec a corp, then the victim corp can pay concord 50.001 million to nullify the dec. While I firmly believe the price for an initial dec should be closer to a 500 million per week. And in all honesty the bill should have to be paid daily and not once a week.
3. there should also be a rule that makes it so a give corp has a longer cool down period before they can repeat dec a corp. in all cases.
T
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Insa Rexion
Minmatar CTRL-Q
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Posted - 2010.01.26 08:39:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Jade Knight07 I think CCP should do a survey to better understand this issue of griefer corps war dec’ing other corps/alliances completely unprovoked.
stopped there, wardeccing is not greifing, it may be extortion, but that as legitimate a way as any to try to make isk in the harsh universe we all love. --------------------------------------------
well mannered ****ole |
DreadPirate Chuckybob
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Posted - 2010.01.26 08:43:00 -
[3]
These corps are comparable to pirates in their lust for blood and isk, but they're working within the boundaries of the laws set by CONCORD. The only thing that separates their greed from that of most corporations is that they're more honest about it. The fact that these corps are organized as corps makes them just as vulnerable as those they declare war on, and if they are found to be a big enough nuisance, an alliance could easily take them on. Players are able to control these corps, if they so choose. There is no reason for CCP to step in.
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Jade Knight07
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Posted - 2010.01.26 09:00:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Jade Knight07 on 26/01/2010 09:03:00 My reasoning behind this thread is the fact that in one year i have watched over 100 people leave eve forever specifically because of a griefer war dec. These war dec's take all the fun and enjoyment out of eve for them. Why would someone pay money to play a game where they are constantly terrorized by other players whose only source of enjoyment seems to come from making good people suffer.
My thoughts are simple. If you want to pvp and blow up stations you can go to low sec and do it all day long in an area where it is expected and under the pretenses of sovereignty defense of acquisition of territory. To do it in high sec with out any reason other than to increase their kill board points turns my stomach.
This game has a great premise, and is a good game but a lot of us play for entertainment and not the cause of misery to others. I shutter when trying to imagine what goes thru the heads of players whom terrorize other players for fun .
If I wanted to PVP I would go to 0.0. that is not my current goal nor is it the goal of a lot of players in eve.
You must realize CCP is loosing a lot of money because of this issue. I would bet they could double their player base if they actually gave the underdog the ability to fight off these "virtual professional terrorists." the corps I have been in are not small or weak but somehow a very small corp of 3+ year old players can crush us. Even when we put together fitting forces which out number them 3 to 1. Granted the pilots in the force all have less than a year or around a year of SP.
Try to understand I would like to make Eve better all around, Not better for the really old player or better for the terrorists. You can be assured eve was not voted the best MMO community because of Greifer corps.
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Valandril
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2010.01.26 09:02:00 -
[5]
Yadda yadda yadda, GB2WOW. There you have pvp zones.
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Jade Knight07
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Posted - 2010.01.26 09:07:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Valandril Yadda yadda yadda, GB2WOW. There you have pvp zones.
Per the forum rules, if you don't have anything beneficial to add please don't post anything.
FYI: I have never played WOW
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DuKackBoon
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Posted - 2010.01.26 09:07:00 -
[7]
Edited by: DuKackBoon on 26/01/2010 09:07:57 I really don't see your problem? I wasn't aware of wardecs being against the rules.
And as for "griefer wardeccs", as long as a corp doesn't specifically hunt the members of one corp, even after they disband and reform, and that many many times, I wouldn't call it griefing. Shoot back, it might be a good PVP training.
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Jade Knight07
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Posted - 2010.01.26 09:12:00 -
[8]
Originally by: DuKackBoon Edited by: DuKackBoon on 26/01/2010 09:07:57 I really don't see your problem? I wasn't aware of wardecs being against the rules.
And as for "griefer wardeccs", as long as a corp doesn't specifically hunt the members of one corp, even after they disband and reform, and that many many times, I wouldn't call it griefing. Shoot back, it might be a good PVP training.
Please read what i wrote and try and understand. I said nothing about them being against CCP policy. You seem to be on your own "page." what you don't realize this is the only way to suggest changes to the game. These are changes that a large group of player came up with over the last few months.
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eliminator2
Gallente
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Posted - 2010.01.26 09:31:00 -
[9]
Edited by: eliminator2 on 26/01/2010 09:34:24 Suggestion 1. Need for a reason. In my opinon there should be a need for a war dec. I propose that you use the aggression events to determine whether or not the Declaration is warranted. How it could work: Keep a log of all aggression events for a set period of time. For instance one week. Keep track or who was the aggressor and who was the victim. Make it so the aggressing corp cannot war dec another corp without adequate cause. Only if a attack was made by corp A against corp B, then corp B could war dec corp A but corp A would not be able to attack corp B.
can you imagine the stress on the server? 0_0
EDIT: This game has a great premise, and is a good game but a lot of us play for entertainment and not the cause of misery to others. I shutter when trying to imagine what goes thru the heads of players whom terrorize other players for fun .
What yuo call misery to others some call fun and entertainment what you cann fun and entertainment means bordem and sadness
you carnt claim that what you do is fun and what others do is misery stuff :p
-----------------------------------------------
I met Eliminator1..... I chewed it up, and spat it out. Now, he is my minion.
I kill miners and mission runners people say, I call them target pra |
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
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Posted - 2010.01.26 10:29:00 -
[10]
While I see there may be a problem I cant see any of your solutions working. (my own ideas involve scalable fees based on total SP of both corps involved.... Plus the aggressor can't recruit people during the period of the dec)
Anyway, back to your points:
1 - How is this stored and really, what do you actually mean by an 'aggressive event'??? In HiSec there arn't any untill war is declared. Also what if you want to wardec me for suggesting that 'you have carnal knowledge of farmyard animals' in local chat??? Oopse, that's not logged as an aggressive event so you can't wardec me.
2 A - 500mil a week.... with this, no small noob corp could issue a wardec.
2 B - See A.
3 - I'm not sure about the current mechanic here, but it does not seem to be a bad idea. However keeping a dec running should not be penalized.
------------------------ Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer "I've got a couple of Strippers on my ship... and they just love to dance!" ------------------------ |
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Galeon89
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Posted - 2010.01.26 18:01:00 -
[11]
Agression logged for being able to war-dec... What about: 1. Can flip that results in accidental drone-aggro. 2. Evil pirate have a legal war-dec against helpless mining-corp. 3. Righous PVP-corp is unable to aid their sister-corp since they have no aggro.
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Jade Knight07
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Posted - 2010.01.27 04:26:00 -
[12]
Thanks for your posts, in all cases i do see your points and they are good, valid. Unfortunately i don't have a full proof idea that will work. But i am hoping a solution can be found to help protect the "good" corps from the "bad/eveil" corps.
In the case of an aggression event i am refering to the instance which brings up the aggression timer in the right corner of the screen. Unfortrunatly to my knowledge this is limited to can flipping, which in the end could case drone aggro from the miner's drones. which is a big problem.
I appricate your post and i will continue to think on this subject. Though my knowlegde of programing is limited to HTML, and i have no real understandings of how EVE works behind the sences. I do hope i can think up something that may help the situation.
Thanks for the good posts you have restored my faith a bit in these fourms.
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Octoven
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Posted - 2010.01.27 05:36:00 -
[13]
I think the war dec system in high sec is pretty unbalanced. However, as the majority of players seem to like it I guess it will stay that way. There should be a justifiable cause though, I mean if we look at real world history and all we know about war they are fought over something be it religious beliefs or resources. Being in high sec should not make you harder to fight but if your fighting in civilized space you should have a good reason. Our corp has been in a war for a few days, not that I mind I like the pvp experiance but that can be given without the need to war dec. When I think of war I think of all out battle over something not just because you can. When we asked them why they war deced us I was expecting a ransom or perhaps because they want to push us out of mining an area, some kind of strategic reason but the only response we got was "TUNE UP". If corps want to do some skirmish thats fine but if your going to war it needs to be for a reason.
As for your idea of war cost I agree 50 mil is nothing but a drop in a bucket. War cost should be set up different, I know before I thought about maybe doing it based on sec status. For instance if you pay 50 mil then you can fight in 0.0-0.5 and 0.6-1.0 you would be unable to fight in those systems. Adding 50 mil to each level of security until you get to 1.0. So if you want to fight everywhere you would need to pay 300 mil a week. This seems like a pretty good setup to me. If you only want to pay 150 mil then you can fight in systems except for 0.8-1.0. The only downside to this idea is that the defending corp would want to go into higher sec to hide but I should remind you that they will hide in the stations in the lower high sec areas as well too so not much is being missed. This will make war decs thought out more before they are declared. Many corps have turned the idea of going to war into a common idea. I'm not really sure why the fee is 50 mil but keep in mind that if its there then its there for a purpose and thats to keep "spam wars" from happening. Its becoming relatively easy to make millions everyday and eventually your going to have noob corps war dec just because they can rather because they want to. If you have your corp HQ/offices in say 0.8 and you only want to pay 100M because your target corp is stationed in 0.6 and you could hide in your home system without fear of attack, then you will be forced to pay 200M for being in 0.8 or else you cant war dec. There are major flaws here but just thought I would throw that idea out and in the end I do think the war cost needs adjusted higher or else just remove it all together because having it low it just pointless.
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Cambarus
The Compass Reloaded
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Posted - 2010.01.27 05:58:00 -
[14]
There are already plenty of counters to wardecs, and though they may be cheap they're also easy to dodge via corp-hopping. Stop trying to remove one of the very few elements of risk left in highsec space. Some people tell those who whine about wardecs to GBTW, but from where I stand hello kitty online would probably be a more suitable game. |
Octoven
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Posted - 2010.01.27 06:05:00 -
[15]
It isnt the idea of removing war decs from high sec so much as the war cost. Its 50 mil.....thats nothing why pay it? Pay a lot more or pay nothing at all is all I'm saying.
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James Tritanius
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Posted - 2010.01.27 07:02:00 -
[16]
Edited by: James Tritanius on 27/01/2010 07:04:24
1) No. As others have pointed out, it has a lot of flaws in it. Just to point out another one, the server can't process chatlogs, and thus "justified" wars resulting from smacktalking will be prevented under your system.
2) No. Even 50mil is a lot to me, and perhaps to the majority of EVE players. Your elitism is not appreciated. Your enemy can easily jump corps or use other methods to avoid actual contact. This can result in your half a billion isk wardec to be pretty much wasted in most situations.
3) No. I don't see your justification for it.
---
If you don't want to experience any highsec PvP action, there are many ways to avoid it.
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Metalcali
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Posted - 2010.01.27 07:04:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Jade Knight07 You must realize CCP is loosing a lot of money because of this issue.
If they were losing money they would have changed the issue shortly after the loss. This would also go against their recent tax on npc corps to get more people into player run corps which run from and participate in wardecs. ---
Originally by: CCP Mitnal Locked.
OP does not contain an idea.
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Tragu
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Posted - 2010.01.27 07:20:00 -
[18]
Quote: In my opinon there should be a need for a war dec. I propose that you use the aggression events to determine whether or not the Declaration is warranted. How it could work: Keep a log of all aggression events for a set period of time. For instance one week. Keep track or who was the aggressor and who was the victim. Make it so the aggressing corp cannot war dec another corp without adequate cause. Only if a attack was made by corp A against corp B, then corp B could war dec corp A but corp A would not be able to attack corp B.
My corp just recently war dec'd a can flipper corp because they where flipping a mining corp that we are "allies" with (no alliance, just friends) With this in place our war never would of happened, i wouldn't of kicked a can flippers butt and our mining friends would still be getting flipped. Tell me your solution to this.
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Cresalle
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Posted - 2010.01.27 21:00:00 -
[19]
*drinks the carebear tears*
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WarlockX
Amarr Free Trade Corp
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Posted - 2010.01.27 21:47:00 -
[20]
Here is the common misconception ppl make with eve:
They link pilots with -> people. And concord with -> police. But what its actually closer with is
pilots -> gods corps -> countries
Countries go to war with other countries all the time without police steping in to help the weaker countries. You gotta defend your own borders!
Also because gods can't die , getting your ships blown up is no big deal.
Concord is there to help stop undeclared aggression to help minimize civilian casualties and put boundiers on the "gods". Not to stop the gods from fighting. They just don't want the gods fighting around the mortals. ----------------------------------------------- Free Trade Corp - Flash page
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Kerfira
Audaces Fortuna Iuvat
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Posted - 2010.01.28 01:38:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Kerfira on 28/01/2010 01:39:43
Originally by: WarlockX Here is the common misconception ppl make with eve:
They link pilots with -> people. And concord with -> police. But what its actually closer with is
pilots -> gods corps -> countries
Countries go to war with other countries all the time without police steping in to help the weaker countries. You gotta defend your own borders!
Also because gods can't die , getting your ships blown up is no big deal.
Concord is there to help stop undeclared aggression to help minimize civilian casualties and put boundiers on the "gods". Not to stop the gods from fighting. They just don't want the gods fighting around the mortals.
Well said! And quite on the spot!
To the OP: Yes, you may have seen players leave. That is because, like any game, people may try EVE and find it is not for them! EVE is first and foremost a game about blowing up spaceships. This is not an optional extra! It is the fundamental basis of the game and NOT something people can opt out of!
Just in case you haven't got signatures turned on, I'll quote mine:
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
I've used it for years, because it tell people like you something you don't know, or doesn't want to acknowledge!
In EVE, YOU and YOU ALONE, are responsible for your safety! CONCORD offers punishment for certain infractions (ie. shooting without a wardec), not protection. Protection is completely up to yourself!
Besides, it is so easy to get out of wardec's it's not even funny... Just disband the corp.... If you don't want to do that.... *shrug* GB2WOW
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Octoven
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Posted - 2010.01.28 01:58:00 -
[22]
even in mythology the "gods" had limits to what they could or could not do to one another, very true they COULD very well do it but not without consequences for their actions. Id say the best solution of all is just to sit your ass in a station and wait it out. Eventually they will get bored and quit the war, in that sense YOU got what you wanted and they didn't so you win they lose. For those of you who say 50 mil is a lot to you.....do a level 4 once a day and after one day you have your war cost.....that's sad. Considering most wars are over in a week regardless of war cost then setting it higher would make corps think twice about war decs and make them appreciate them more as well. If you don't like the idea of shelling out 100-200Mil a week then the answer is simple......just don't war dec. Too many putz wanting to go to war just because they are bored....if that's the case they should get their ass into low sec or better null space instead of wanting to fight in high sec. Of course for that to happen they WOULD need to grow a pair.
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Sep'Shoni
Gallente Carpe Diem inc. Celestial Shadows
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Posted - 2010.01.30 16:21:00 -
[23]
Maybe what we need as a counterbalance is some kind of "peace dec" where the industrial corps who are tired of pointless wardecs could -- for the value of a day's production by a skilled hulk pilot (equivalent to the wardec fee equivalent to a day of grinding level 4's by a skilled missioner) -- force griefer corps to spend a week either mining or hiding in station for fear of mining?
Then we industrials could come on the forums when they complain and dismiss their objection to paying REAL WORLD CASH to not play the parts of the game that they enjoy with snarky statements that they should either train up some mining and trading skills or go back to Team Fortress II.
Quote: .if that's the case they should get their ass into low sec or better null space instead of wanting to fight in high sec. Of course for that to happen they WOULD need to grow a pair.
Very well said. Shooting fish in a barrel by targeting helpless newbs and industrial specialists says more about the weakness of the griefers than the weakness of their targets. Sep'Shoni
Mining ore and making stuff. Its not just a job, its an obsession. |
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