EVE Search - [Proposal] Railgun Rebalancing

Check My IP Information

All Channels

Assembly Hall

[Proposal] Railgun Rebalancing

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 .. 32 :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.05.13 17:16:00 - [751] Originally by: Arrador Originally by: Jack Icegaard Edited by: Jack Icegaard on 13/05/2010 10:57:46 Originally by: Goumindong I never knew that there were Caldari and Gallente Rails. Here i was just thinking that you put the same weapons on each ship. Yeah, but hold your horses now. You pick the Rokh which happens to be the only battleship in its tier that is geared towards fleet sniping. Then you compare it to the Apoc, which is a much more versatile ship and one tier lower. From there you conclude that the Rokh fairs well in that comparison (when looking at the pure EHP and DPS aspect of sniper works) and then, since the Rokh seem fine with Railguns you pretend that you thereby have demonstrated that Railguns are fine? I like his logic in in that "One ship using rails is fine, therefore all ships using rails are fine." The Rokh is a great killmail *****. High RoF, good buffer (so it isn't primaried often), and extreme range to hit almost anything. It doesn't contribute to a fight like other snipers, but if you want to be on as many killmails as possible, this is your BS. If you don't want to be loathed by everyone else in the fleet because you are flying a selfish ship that doesn't pull its weight... you might want to fly something else. Gallente snipers, on the other hand, are just a pile of weaker-than. Weak range, weak tank, weak speed, and weak damage. This signature is useless, but it is red.
Goumindong SniggWaffe	Posted - 2010.05.13 21:48:00 - [752] Originally by: Arrador I like his logic in in that "One ship using rails is fine, therefore all ships using rails are fine." No. The logic is "Some ships using rails are fine, therefore the problems are not with railguns, but with the ships that are not fine" -- A discussion on EVE, Combat, Gangs, and Balance
Kvo Vadis	Posted - 2010.05.13 22:18:00 - [753] Originally by: Goumindong I never knew that there were Caldari and Gallente Rails. Here i was just thinking that you put the same weapons on each ship. I do not know why but rails on Rokh, Ferox, Harpy, Vulture, Moa, Merlin, Eagle shoot significantly farther then rails on Gallente ships. I did not discovered where is secret but it is so
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.05.13 22:25:00 - [754] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Arrador I like his logic in in that "One ship using rails is fine, therefore all ships using rails are fine." No. The logic is "Some ships using rails are fine, therefore the problems are not with railguns, but with the ships that are not fine" It seems like the important question is whether there's more ships they're broken on than not. And the answer to that is a resounding "yes". Rails are the problems, and any ship which is deemed problematic after the rail fix can be tweaked. IMO, as long as they are reasonable with the hybrid fix there won't be any ship tweaks required. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Doctor Aibolit	Posted - 2010.05.13 22:34:00 - [755] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Arrador I like his logic in in that "One ship using rails is fine, therefore all ships using rails are fine." No. The logic is "Some ships using rails are fine, therefore the problems are not with railguns, but with the ships that are not fine" Right! Rails on Rokh is fine. All Gallente ships are not fine with rails. CCP do not want to think about fine-tuning blasters and "Gallente rails". So there is simple idea. Change damage bonus for Gallente ships from 5% to 7,5%. It is simple microboost for "Gallente rails" and blasters.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.05.13 22:57:00 - [756] Originally by: Doctor Aibolit Right! Rails on Rokh is fine. All Gallente ships are not fine with rails. CCP do not want to think about fine-tuning blasters and "Gallente rails". So there is simple idea. Change damage bonus for Gallente ships from 5% to 7,5%. It is simple microboost for "Gallente rails" and blasters. Blasters aren't ok on the Rokh, nor on the Mega or Hype. Rails aren't sufficiently awesome on the Rokh, and they outright suck on pretty much everything else. The problem here is hybrids as a whole... trying to balance the ships around this individually is folly. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Ogogov	Posted - 2010.05.14 01:43:00 - [757] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Doctor Aibolit Right! Rails on Rokh is fine. All Gallente ships are not fine with rails. CCP do not want to think about fine-tuning blasters and "Gallente rails". So there is simple idea. Change damage bonus for Gallente ships from 5% to 7,5%. It is simple microboost for "Gallente rails" and blasters. Blasters aren't ok on the Rokh, nor on the Mega or Hype. Rails aren't sufficiently awesome on the Rokh, and they outright suck on pretty much everything else. The problem here is hybrids as a whole... trying to balance the ships around this individually is folly. -Liang Precisely, but instead we have two very energetic idiots trying to derail every serious discussion about how to improve them. I wish these forums had an ignore function :(
Goumindong SniggWaffe	Posted - 2010.05.14 11:25:00 - [758] Originally by: Liang Nuren It seems like the important question is whether there's more ships they're broken on than not. And the answer to that is a resounding "yes". Rails are the problems, and any ship which is deemed problematic after the rail fix can be tweaked. IMO, as long as they are reasonable with the hybrid fix there won't be any ship tweaks required. So what kind of nerf are you going to propose for the Rokh, Eagle, Ferox, Vulture, Taranis, Moa, and Brutix? -- A discussion on EVE, Combat, Gangs, and Balance
FlameGlow Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2010.05.14 11:33:00 - [759] Originally by: Goumindong So what kind of nerf are you going to propose for the Eagle, Ferox, Vulture, Moa? Nerf their PG so they can't fit high-tier rails without multiple fitting mods? Oh wai... Originally by: CCP Manifest Imploding servers are not a part of our business model.
Goumindong SniggWaffe	Posted - 2010.05.14 12:52:00 - [760] Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: Goumindong So what kind of nerf are you going to propose for the Eagle, Ferox, Vulture, Moa? Nerf their PG so they can't fit high-tier rails without multiple fitting mods? Oh wai... Irrelevant. Final values are what matters. And the final values put the Eagle competitive with the rest of the LR HACs(despite foolishness of people unwilling to fit in that manner), the Ferox and Brutix with the rest of the LR BC's and the Vulture in a class of its own, and the Moa competitive with LR Cruisers. -- A discussion on EVE, Combat, Gangs, and Balance

Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.05.14 16:23:00 - [761] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: FlameGlow Originally by: Goumindong So what kind of nerf are you going to propose for the Eagle, Ferox, Vulture, Moa? Nerf their PG so they can't fit high-tier rails without multiple fitting mods? Oh wai... Irrelevant. Final values are what matters. And the final values put the Eagle competitive with the rest of the LR HACs(despite foolishness of people unwilling to fit in that manner), the Ferox and Brutix with the rest of the LR BC's and the Vulture in a class of its own, and the Moa competitive with LR Cruisers. Increase the base range of rails (provides Gallente rail ships with the "railgun" niche) and decrease the range bonuses on the Caldari ships. Maybe switch a bonus on the Caldari ships to something else instead of range... targeting range? It would have to be specific to each ship in a way that creates/maintains balance. This signature is useless, but it is red.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.05.14 16:28:00 - [762] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Liang Nuren It seems like the important question is whether there's more ships they're broken on than not. And the answer to that is a resounding "yes". Rails are the problems, and any ship which is deemed problematic after the rail fix can be tweaked. IMO, as long as they are reasonable with the hybrid fix there won't be any ship tweaks required. So what kind of nerf are you going to propose for the Rokh, Eagle, Ferox, Vulture, Taranis, Moa, and Brutix? None, because they won't be overpowered? -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Goumindong SniggWaffe	Posted - 2010.05.14 17:59:00 - [763] Edited by: Goumindong on 14/05/2010 18:02:59 Originally by: Liang Nuren None, because there's damn near no reason to fly them now... and they might actually have a purpose then. :GASP!: Seriously man - the only ship that you might even have a point about would be the Taranis, and even that I'm not sure about. Just because you don't do fleet work doesn't mean that they don't do their job well compared to the alternatives. Originally by: Bagehi Increase the base range of rails (provides Gallente rail ships with the "railgun" niche) and decrease the range bonuses on the Caldari ships. Maybe switch a bonus on the Caldari ships to something else instead of range... targeting range? It would have to be specific to each ship in a way that creates/maintains balance. This is a terrible Idea. And there is nothing wrong with the ships you listed except that you aren't smart enough to use them properly.(Or tech 1 cruiseritis) -- A discussion on EVE, Combat, Gangs, and Balance
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.05.14 18:11:00 - [764] Edited by: Bagehi on 14/05/2010 18:16:49 Originally by: Goumindong This is a terrible Idea. And there is nothing wrong with the ships you listed except that you aren't smart enough to use them properly.(Or tech 1 cruiseritis) Wait, where did I say there was something wrong with any of the ships I mentioned? I said Gallente do not have range with rails. So rails should have more base range. Many Caldari rail ships should have their range bonuses NERFED when the base range is increased. I suggested rather bland bonuses to switch with the range bonuses on Caldari ships. EDIT: WTF is up with you saying people aren't smart enough to "properly" fit ships that you never fly, let alone fit? When we are in need of pulse/beam fits, we'll let you know. This signature is useless, but it is red.
Goumindong SniggWaffe	Posted - 2010.05.15 12:26:00 - [765] Do you even do a cursory glance at what happens to the ships with you make your proposed changes? This is a serious question. -- A discussion on EVE, Combat, Gangs, and Balance
Spugg Galdon	Posted - 2010.05.15 22:15:00 - [766] I think we need to think of something a little more interesting than just fiddling with the range/damage of rails. I still think a penetration mechanic can be balanced and give rails that second tactical advantage. Beams have raw damage (DPS) and exceptional tracking Arties have selectable damage types (yes close range but meh) and extreme alpha Rails only have range. And then that range advantage is only seen on selected caldari ships.
Liang Nuren Parsec Flux	Posted - 2010.05.15 22:55:00 - [767] Originally by: Spugg Galdon I think we need to think of something a little more interesting than just fiddling with the range/damage of rails. I still think a penetration mechanic can be balanced and give rails that second tactical advantage. Beams have raw damage (DPS) and exceptional tracking Arties have selectable damage types (yes close range but meh) and extreme alpha Rails only have range. And then that range advantage is only seen on selected caldari ships. It has been PROVEN that damage penetration cannot be balanced in any conventional sense of the word. You might be able to make it such that it won't be ridiculously overpowered in the extreme situations, but in doing so you'll make rails utterly useless in the average case. I'll take my regular joe damage boost please. Also, I encourage you to take a look at the optimal of a sniper Mega vs optimal of a Tempest. And don't give me none of that "but you operate in falloff!!!!!!" crap. -Liang -- Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
Bibbleibble	Posted - 2010.05.16 09:51:00 - [768] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Spugg Galdon I think we need to think of something a little more interesting than just fiddling with the range/damage of rails. I still think a penetration mechanic can be balanced and give rails that second tactical advantage. Beams have raw damage (DPS) and exceptional tracking Arties have selectable damage types (yes close range but meh) and extreme alpha Rails only have range. And then that range advantage is only seen on selected caldari ships. It has been PROVEN that damage penetration cannot be balanced in any conventional sense of the word. You might be able to make it such that it won't be ridiculously overpowered in the extreme situations, but in doing so you'll make rails utterly useless in the average case. I'll take my regular joe damage boost please. Also, I encourage you to take a look at the optimal of a sniper Mega vs optimal of a Tempest. And don't give me none of that "but you operate in falloff!!!!!!" crap. -Liang ^^ This If a damage penetration mechanism works, it is almost actually equivalent to a damage boost, because they both achieve the same result: breaking through tanks. Also, in the fleet fight situations most rails are used in, you are either destroyed outright by the alpha of a fleet or are RR'd up before being destroyed. Either you have to nerf armour tanks by letting you penetrate straight through to structure, or you indirectly boost armour tanks, by letting shield tanks get penetrated. With all the complexities, and the fact that in a fleet fight you don't have time generally to admire the well made game mechanics, I think it's better just to go with a damage boost.
Maxsim Goratiev Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.05.16 10:22:00 - [769] make rails load up only one bullet at a time, and have them able to swap out shells instantly. One problem solved. Improve rail optimal by 10-12%. Decrease range bonus on caldary ships to 7.5%, that of an apoc.
Naomi Knight Amarr	Posted - 2010.05.16 12:11:00 - [770] Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev make rails load up only one bullet at a time, and have them able to swap out shells instantly. One problem solved. Improve rail optimal by 10-12%. Decrease range bonus on caldary ships to 7.5%, that of an apoc. Omg. one bullet only? so I would have to reactivate guns every 10 sec or what? Also nice try with placebo boost... try harder

Maxsim Goratiev Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.05.16 19:56:00 - [771] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev make rails load up only one bullet at a time, and have them able to swap out shells instantly. One problem solved. Improve rail optimal by 10-12%. Decrease range bonus on caldary ships to 7.5%, that of an apoc. Omg. one bullet only? so I would have to reactivate guns every 10 sec or what? Also nice try with placebo boost... try harder You are either an idiot or a troll. Of your own benefit, i honestly hope that it's a troll. If you switch ammo instantly, to switch ammot oyu need to reload your gun.. Hm.. Could that mean that you reload instantly?? NO way..
Bagehi Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Gentlemen's Club	Posted - 2010.05.17 18:48:00 - [772] Edited by: Bagehi on 17/05/2010 18:55:56 Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev You are either an idiot or a troll. Of your own benefit, i honestly hope that it's a troll. If you switch ammo instantly, to switch ammot oyu need to reload your gun.. Hm.. Could that mean that you reload instantly?? NO way.. Have you ever tried to reload in a large fight? Slightly OP idea until lag hits it, then it stops working. Originally by: Goumindong Do you even do a cursory glance at what happens to the ships with you make your proposed changes? This is a serious question. Gallente railgun ships would fire further than Amarr beam ships for less damage, as they should. Caldari railgun ships would have a little more range than either and do the least damage. You clearly insinuate I'm missing something but (unlike normal) aren't pointing out where you think the flaw is in someone's argument. This leads me to believe you can't find a flaw.
Maxsim Goratiev Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate Sodalitas XX	Posted - 2010.05.18 17:57:00 - [773] Quote: Have you ever tried to reload in a large fight? that is indeed a problem i have not considered.
Psycros	Posted - 2010.05.19 00:14:00 - [774] Hybrids definitely don't deliver the goods. Railguns are inaccurate and do very little damage. Statistically they are inferior to everything else, but in actual gameplay they seem even worse that the numbers suggest. Blasters aren't much better - their supposed to be the highest DPS turret yet everyone knows autocannons far outdamage them AND hit more often. Of course the biggest imbalance in the game are Caldari missile ships that never miss, can do every kind of damage and deliver just as much DPS as the best turrets..all without any of that falloff or optimal range nonsense (oh and they can't be neuted or disrupted). Meanwhile, between their inefficient armor tanking, weak drones and terrible guns, Gallente are worthless.
Deckington Forgecaster	Posted - 2010.05.19 01:11:00 - [775] Support
Dzajic Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2010.05.19 13:35:00 - [776] Supported. Though it'd be better for a lot of rework of lacking railboats than rails themselves.
javer 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2010.05.19 14:52:00 - [777] supported, and muchly needed -------------------------------------------- Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their Level and beat you with experience.
Cursan Voran	Posted - 2010.05.20 07:12:00 - [778] Have to support this.
Unit ADA	Posted - 2010.05.20 22:43:00 - [779] I'd say Railguns should do a higher Alpha than Beams but lower Alpha than Artillery. Higher DPS than Artillery (much higher not 5-6 dps) but same or lower dps as beams. If that's not balanced enough you can increase the cap cost and maybe reduce tracking. Also give them a bonus where they gain 30% overheat bonus instead of 15%, but make them burn up faster. Give them a big Damage modifier increase, but also lower their rate of fire to compensate. A railgun needs to charge up its capacitors and charge up the magnetic impulses in order to fire and that takes time. But as a result it should unleash a powerful shot. You have a better chances of volleying certain targets better than lasers, but not to the extreme extend as artillery. The DPS should be close to lasers, but not surpassing. This should also help address the problems of hybrid charges as they are twice the size of projectile ammo. A rokh would run out of ammo MUCH FASTER than a maelstrom. Railguns should be powerful, not wimpy. Currently Railguns have the weaknesses of both lasers and projectiles, but possess not of their strengths.
Goumindong SniggWaffe	Posted - 2010.05.21 01:20:00 - [780] Originally by: Bagehi Gallente railgun ships would fire further than Amarr beam ships for less damage, as they should. Caldari railgun ships would have a little more range than either and do the least damage. You clearly insinuate I'm missing something but (unlike normal) aren't pointing out where you think the flaw is in someone's argument. This leads me to believe you can't find a flaw. But you can't make em drink... You're giving the ships extra effective modules slots, just as you can use the range bonus to tank as Liang describes you use the lock range bonus for the same thing. -- A discussion on EVE, Combat, Gangs, and Balance



Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 .. 32 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.