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Karl Schmidt
Caldari
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
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Posted - 2010.02.01 13:00:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Karl Schmidt on 01/02/2010 13:01:07
Before anyone starts hating me, I wasn't sure whether to put this in Missions or Ships.
Basically, is there any T1 Battleship (preferably non-faction) that is as good running missions solo as the CNR?
By good I mean taking tank, DPS, cap stability, etc. etc. into account, not just one factor.
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Chief Operations Officer, APEX Unlimited.
APEX Conglomerate. |
Qui Shon
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Posted - 2010.02.01 13:04:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Qui Shon on 01/02/2010 13:04:58
No. Not basic T1. Faction/pirate ship yes. CNR isn't "basic" T1 either, it's a faction ship.
Domi can be pretty fast, but, in a "fast" config, you won't have much tank on it.
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Karl Schmidt
Caldari
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
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Posted - 2010.02.01 14:28:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Qui Shon
Edited by: Qui Shon on 01/02/2010 13:04:58
No. Not basic T1. Faction/pirate ship yes. CNR isn't "basic" T1 either, it's a faction ship.
quote]
I know the CNR is a faction ship, but I'm looking to save some isk while still getting close to the CNR's mission efficiency. Hence the original question.
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Chief Operations Officer, APEX Unlimited.
APEX Conglomerate.
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superteds
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Posted - 2010.02.01 14:33:00 -
[4]
Raven tbh
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el caido
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2010.02.01 15:27:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Karl Schmidt
By good I mean taking tank, DPS, cap stability, etc. etc. into account, not just one factor.
If you are running missions intelligently, tank and cap stability should rarely, if ever, come into play. That said, a baddon or Domi will steamroll missions much faster which will in turn net you more iskies. Of course, I am making the assumption that you have more than marginal skills.
But, if you're looking for an AFK, overtanked, overpriced FOF-lobber ... then the CNR is perfect for you.
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Kerfira
Audaces Fortuna Iuvat
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Posted - 2010.02.01 15:31:00 -
[6]
The Apoc can also do reasonably well IF(!) you're missioning in Amarr space....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Gavin DeVries
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Posted - 2010.02.01 15:32:00 -
[7]
Not sure how good the Maelstrom is with the projectile weapon changes. Dominix has already been mentioned. Abbadon can do better on some missions and worse on others; it depends on the foes. And if you include faction ships, then you have to consider the Machariel and the Nightmare. Mach is questionable; again it depends on how the projectile changes affected it. I don't know anyone who really complains about the Nightmare having a lack of ability.
______________________________________________________
Isn't it enough to know that I ruined a pony making a gift for you? |
superteds
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Posted - 2010.02.01 15:33:00 -
[8]
Originally by: el caido
Originally by: Karl Schmidt
By good I mean taking tank, DPS, cap stability, etc. etc. into account, not just one factor.
If you are running missions intelligently, tank and cap stability should rarely, if ever, come into play. That said, a baddon or Domi will steamroll missions much faster which will in turn net you more iskies. Of course, I am making the assumption that you have more than marginal skills.
But, if you're looking for an AFK, overtanked, overpriced FOF-lobber ... then the CNR is perfect for you.
Or fly and fit the CNR well and totally annihilate missions.
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Kzintee
Caldari
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Posted - 2010.02.01 17:58:00 -
[9]
Depends what you mean by "t1 battleship"...is that "Raven, Scorp, Rokh, Domi, Hype, Mega, Mael, Phoon, Pest, Geddon, Apoc, Abaddon"? Is it just the true "t1" BSes (example would be Raven...Abaddon is a "tier 3" battleship)? CNR is a faction BS...just like Scorp Navy is.
Anyway, the answer depends on number of factors. Like where you mission and what skills you have. If you run "everywhere" and want a jack of all trades ship, CNR/Navy Scorp/Rattler/Golem is your friend. If you are a gunner and you fly in Amarr space then Nightmare is your friend. For angels Machariel is a sweet ship with nice damage potential.
When I ran lvl4s I used Nightmare for everything, even Gurista/Angels (Amarr space so I got very few of those). That was my "one fit all" ship. I still use it for lvl5s where appropriate.
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2010.02.01 20:37:00 -
[10]
Generally the raven/CNR is a jack of all trades ship and master of none. It will do good damage vs all but will be outclassed by more specialist ships.
Eg em/therm weak npc's the amarr ships like the abbadon will eat a raven/cnr.
Angels etc the min ships win.
The domi another jack of all trades ship with huge drone space (375 mtr) so can carry several types of drones which like the cnr can choose a damage type, plus can run hybrid turrets. This leads to higher dps than a CNR (with plain domi, even more vs faction domi) vs therm/kin and also not bad (jack of all trades) vs other.
There are experienced players who are of the oppinion that a properly fitted domi is to have no turrets in the highs and against this the cnr using highs they consider as "outperforming". These players probably never fitted a ship themsevlves and probably needed to "borrow" a fitting for the cnr etc off battleclinic or similar. If comparing ships, consider like equipment. eg if fit weapons in highs, compare to another ship similarly fitted. If use faction modules, consider the other ships likewise fitted etc.
On the tank side the domi is more flexible in that can tank more than a raven or cnr, plus can train it faster to do lvl 4 missions. The domi can run 2x LAR if one chooses but this will reduce its dps. The Raven/CNR can't run similar tank so takes a bit more training before can do lvl 4 missions. Typically lvl 4 misions want 5 drones plus ship flying skills. In the case of the domi one can squeeze into this in 14 days of character creation if have the isk, plus know the missions already. The raven/ CNR needs missile skills too so takes longer to train to start doing lvl 4 missions.
If move past the T1 and to the T2 marauder, then nothing can active tank like the golem with the active tank easily being able to exceed 4000 dps. The raven/cnr are training towards the golem so if headed for the best marauder, raven/cnr are the way to start training.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2010.02.01 22:24:00 -
[11]
Nightmare is awesome, but you'll need a lot of gunnery skills (and Amarr battleship 4 at least) to make it shine.
However nothing beats the CNR for sheer ease of use. It ignores range, transversal and damage type considerations, and it has a big fat hit point buffer.
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Max Payne
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Posted - 2010.02.02 11:40:00 -
[12]
Ask not what ship is best- they all have their little niche - but rather choose one ship and make it shine.
First make sure you train all fitting,rigging, cap, drones and tanking skills - train mostly shield skills if you're going caldari and mostly armor if you're going gallente. There can be exceptions like the sansha nightmare which has lasers and shield tank.
If for instance you are going missile, make sure you train all relevant missile skills , you have 2 skills for damage, 2 for range, you have a skill for explosion velocity and rof and so on. Also train both t1 and t2 skills for target painters. Helps you a lot to hit smaller targets. Then if you were like Liang you'd get a stop watch , take your time with a certain mission and then make improvements so you can cut the time down a minute or w/e.
Similar with turret ships. You have tracking instead of explosion velocity and it's much harder to get to large t2 turrets(you have to go through small and mediums first ) but in the end any ship you really train up for can be real good... except for scorpion
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2010.02.02 12:02:00 -
[13]
Any battlship that has guns will be able to outperform a CNR in missions. The guns hit instantly and don't have their DPS reduced by the defender missiles so killing is quicker.
The problem with guns is tracking, if the rats get too close then you are in trouble.
Caldary missile boaties are the slow but safe way of doing missions.
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Max Payne
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Posted - 2010.02.02 14:47:00 -
[14]
Eh , I'd have to disagree with banana. As long as you know how many missiles would kill a certain ship you can shoot and move on. On top of that you have your drones for little ships and you don't get misses like you do with turrets. I'd have to say a properly skilled CNR driver would be extremely fast and effective doing missions.
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2010.02.02 17:34:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Max Payne
you don't get misses like you do with turrets
Dont get misses with missiles when get misses with turrets??? If your in the range and you have enough tracking, you dont miss! If you dont know your weapons tracking/range, thats a pilot error vs a turret vs missiles error. Ever heard of a web for closer targets - I use it so cruisers regularly drop in under a volley (abaddon vs em/therm weak npc's) and I only have T1 weaps! Even plain npc (em/therm weak) battlecruisers about drop in a volley (< 2).
Now if your shooting at say a frigate which is in the falloff so it has a small sig with a large turret, get a sig like 40mtr or less while the turret has a 400 mtr explo radius, ie the turret is designed to hit bigger but still does okay against tiny targets at range. I've had missions with like 20 frigates and popped them all at range with turrets and once your past the tiny little ships the bigger cruisers drop in a volley, leaving the elite cruisers which take about as long as a battleship. A large turret isn't designed to hit little targets but still does okay at range while the tracking isn't too high.
Some rats use defender missiles more than others and if you have such rats, cruise cnr/raven and golem tend to have their dps shot down while the more specialized turret ship doesn't while having more dps than the cruise missile boat in the first place! I use an ishtar a lot and use sentry drones, they also drop the "little ships" at range quite well too even with some misses from the low sig vs high explo radius - ie not in the range being the "size" range. Noone will load sentry drones on a raven or CNR as it will tend to get it trouble when dealing with little ships in lvl 4 missions while a turret/drone more specialized ship can regularly kill even the "little ships" even easier than the raven/CNR. Same little ships with the cruise boat with the little ships closing at high speed and how well do the cruise missiles do?
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.02.02 17:46:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 02/02/2010 17:47:02
Originally by: Banana Torres
Any battlship that has guns will be able to outperform a CNR in missions. The guns hit instantly and don't have their DPS reduced by the defender missiles so killing is quicker.
The problem with guns is tracking, if the rats get too close then you are in trouble.
Caldary missile boaties are the slow but safe way of doing missions.
Hey cool fact, but there's a way to drastically reduce your damage loss to defenders without affecting your ability to hit small ships. Also, speaking from experience, cruise missiles are better than turrets in most cases, even with defender spam.
-Liang
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer
If your in the range and you have enough tracking, you dont miss!
You are dead wrong. Turrets always stand a chance of missing if there is any transversal at all.
-Liang
--
Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Herpes Sweatrash
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Posted - 2010.02.02 17:51:00 -
[17]
Also you can actually use 3 x sentry drone on the CNR while still have room for 5 x light drone. Not that I would usually bother to target all these ship like Idria is talking about (let the light drones do the work).
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Irdia Freelancer
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Posted - 2010.02.03 06:33:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer
If your in the range and you have enough tracking, you dont miss!
You are dead wrong. Turrets always stand a chance of missing if there is any transversal at all.
-Liang
% based miss, if your aiming at something and the angular transversal is well below your turrets tracking and its within range and suitable sized the misses are almost 0, much less than shots lost to defenders. eg take a large turret hitting a battleship which is what large turrets designed for. If get smaller ships then as the sig size lowers the misses go up but so do missiles misses and reduced damage - eg try hitting an interceptor coming in at you with a cruise missile. Many missions the npc's just close and you shoot them out the sky - ie angular transversal ~0 so extremely rare misses.
Sentry drones fire every 4 secs, so having them take 4 secs to destroy another frigate/destoryer isn't exactly a hardship. Yes small drones can also take out such npc's, but not as fast as sentry drones at range. Sentry drones work like another turret for your ship, they too use tracking/transversal.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.02.03 06:46:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Also, speaking from experience, cruise missiles are better than turrets in most cases, even with defender spam.
-Liang
Indeed, turrets don't do the whole dps AND range thing so well. tach nightmare is more of an exception.
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
War.Pigs.
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Posted - 2010.02.03 07:30:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 03/02/2010 07:31:50
Originally by: Irdia Freelancer
% based miss, if your aiming at something and the angular transversal is well below your turrets tracking and its within range and suitable sized the misses are almost 0, much less than shots lost to defenders.
No, you are wrong. If their angular velocity = your tracking speed then you will miss 50% of the time and deal 39.505% of your EFT DPS. This isn't a sudden spike either - its a gradual change from no transversal at all. Which means that even if its "less" its still there. Sig radius acts as a multiplier for this effect - and oddly enough I've found that most BS sized rats are less than 400m sig radius. Simply put: no. You don't hit as well as you're saying.
Quote:
eg try hitting an interceptor coming in at you with a cruise missile.
Why would you bother? They're drone food. Only turret users have this odd obsession with shooting the frigates - when in reality all you're really doing when you shoot the frigs is potentially increasing the time you're in the mission by delaying the damage you're putting onto battleships. Maximizing your DPS output means that your turrets shoot what they're designed for and your drones shoot what they're designed for.
-Liang
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Liang Nuren - Eve Forum ***** Extraordinaire
www.kwikdeath.org |
Lucy Oreless
Red Eye Brigade
Elysium Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.03 10:11:00 -
[21]
Abaddon.. T2 pulses with scorch (or T2 Tachyons if targets spawn faaaaar away).
If you are worried about frigs coming to close for the tracking, then you have forgot that there is actually a 75m3 dronebay. Small T2 drones eats all frigs like jellybeans.
With a gank-fit it only takes 6-9 seconds to pop a BS.. (aprox ofc).
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Dors Venabily
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Posted - 2010.02.03 10:29:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Dors Venabily on 03/02/2010 10:29:53
God knows you don't mess around with CNR.
Nothing can come close not even Chuck Norris as you can see at 0:55 of this video.
CNR simply rules 
Link
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Carniflex
StarHunt
Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2010.02.03 12:04:00 -
[23]
Abbadon + Raven (using proper ship depending on mission type) can work out quite well against CNR if you want T1 non faction ships. If you are in area where you get reasonable selection of EM weak missions. If you want to get only one ship to use in all missions then at T1 non faction level you will be damn hard pressed to beat it. Some ships can do some missions better but on average ...
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Minmatar
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2010.02.03 12:48:00 -
[24]
Sgt MackBolan > I got those on queue .... Missile Bombardment, Rapid Lauch, Target Navigation Prediction and Cybernetics ..... that's good right? I found thoses in the missiles section in Skills.
Captain Magat > pretty good. Id train missile launcher op to 5 asap so you ca get guided missile precision assumming youll be missioning and using the guided missiles
Quote:
Only turret users have this odd obsession with shooting the frigates - when in reality all you're really doing when you shoot the frigs is potentially increasing the time you're in the mission by delaying the damage you're putting onto battleships.
Actually there's a situation I think it's worth doing it.
I tend to shoot frigates when they are at 60+ km because the drones I use (small and medium) don't go so far.
I pop 1 frigate per turret so I can deploy heavy drones for the big ships earlier (at the same time I am going to place myself at about 40km off them).
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Auditing and consulting
Before asking for investors, please read
http://tinyurl.com/n5ys4h and
http://tinyurl.com/lrg4oz
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Babel
Ma'asei Merkabah
Naraka.
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Posted - 2010.02.03 18:47:00 -
[25]
Disappointed this thread hasn't turned out to be a poem .... Subject seemed to imply it would ... :(
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"Out of the good of evil born, Came Uriel's voice of cherub scorn" |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.02.04 01:47:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Babel
Disappointed this thread hasn't turned out to be a poem .... Subject seemed to imply it would ... :(
you can try but you won't
you could look but don't
you might find something you think is best
but really it is just like all the rest
you can try to out gank
and you can try to out tank
the dominx will do the trick
but it is just a fat brick
watch the drones go insane
as they don't have a brain
The ishtar is so happy
but it makes me feel nappy
the minmatar are lusty
but their ships are just rusty
The Amarr have class
but their ships run out of gas
The Raven is the bird
and the bird is the word
Which leads us to this
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Lunewraith
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2010.02.04 06:32:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Lunewraith on 04/02/2010 06:32:58
^^^ Should be stickied for every time someone asks about the CNR. Brilliant :)
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Karl Schmidt
Caldari
APEX Unlimited
APEX Conglomerate
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Posted - 2010.02.20 22:55:00 -
[28]
So, the replies pretty much confirm what I originally thought... Though the problem is now moot anyway. Instead of short of ISK, I am now short of skills for the Golem (logical evolution of my situation).
Thanks for all the constructive critiscism and advice.
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Chief Operations Officer, APEX Unlimited.
APEX Conglomerate. |
RaVeN Revenge
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Posted - 2010.02.21 17:48:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Karl Schmidt
So, the replies pretty much confirm what I originally thought... Though the problem is now moot anyway. Instead of short of ISK, I am now short of skills for the Golem (logical evolution of my situation).
Actually... I own both , and for the way I run missions , the CNR kills faster over all . Its not about the science or EFT DPS , its just a fact . I think defender missiles vs 4 launchers is the factor btw.
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Miriiah
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Posted - 2010.02.22 15:16:00 -
[30]
Originally by: RaVeN Revenge
Originally by: Karl Schmidt
So, the replies pretty much confirm what I originally thought... Though the problem is now moot anyway. Instead of short of ISK, I am now short of skills for the Golem (logical evolution of my situation).
Actually... I own both , and for the way I run missions , the CNR kills faster over all . Its not about the science or EFT DPS , its just a fact . I think defender missiles vs 4 launchers is the factor btw.
 Max 1 defender per missile, and that won't destroy torps(will take like 1/3rd of it's hp), and defenderi s a chance per hit against each missile fired, so 4 or 4000 launchers, you'd get the same % of your missiles shot down
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Miriiah
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Posted - 2010.02.22 15:27:00 -
[31]
Oh yeah, and Machariel is atleast on par with CNR overall
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.02.22 23:23:00 -
[32]
Originally by: RaVeN Revenge
Originally by: Karl Schmidt
So, the replies pretty much confirm what I originally thought... Though the problem is now moot anyway. Instead of short of ISK, I am now short of skills for the Golem (logical evolution of my situation).
for the way I run missions
I think I found the problem. although can't be sure without seeing the fits, and/or hearing the tactics.
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Baljos Arnjak
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Posted - 2010.02.23 12:11:00 -
[33]
I use a cruise CNR with an autocannon Macharial. With a 3.1 sec ROF and a 40-50km range on the Mach, the thing eats cruisers and frigs on approach alive, and it's fast enough to close range on BS's the CNR is still working on when the small stuff is gone. Every non-elite ship pops in 2-3 volleys, so nothing ever really gets close enough to be inside it's envelope. Makes the second room of Mordus Headhunters into a turkey shoot lol.
I imagine you could do something similar with a Pest or a Maelstrom (or a Vargur if you were so inclined). I've been toying around with the idea of loading out the Mach with sentries to help with long range DPS, but haven't tried it yet. The only bad part of using autocannons is that it goes through a crap-ton and a half of ammo, but other than that projectile ships definately got a nice boost this time around.
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N Ano
Caldari
Zerg Corp
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Posted - 2010.02.23 12:13:00 -
[34]
Youre asking if there is any t1 bs out there that can match a faction one.
Son I am dissapoint. 
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RaVeN Revenge
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Posted - 2010.02.23 16:05:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
Originally by: RaVeN Revenge
Originally by: Karl Schmidt
So, the replies pretty much confirm what I originally thought... Though the problem is now moot anyway. Instead of short of ISK, I am now short of skills for the Golem (logical evolution of my situation).
for the way I run missions
I think I found the problem. although can't be sure without seeing the fits, and/or hearing the tactics.
Hi slots:
7 x Dread Cruise Launchers.
Raysere's NOS (it reaches out 36km)
Mids :
1 Dread Gurista XL shield booster .
2x T2 shield boost amps.
1 Dread invul.
2X Dread specific hardners.
Lows:
3x Kaikka balistic controls
2x T2 Power Diagnostics
5x Vespa II
10x Hobgoblin II
2x CCC 1
1x CCC II
I put my drones on frigs first . I generaly have 3 frigs and 3 BS targeted .My skills are almost specced for missioning and I solo every mission in the game except EA 5. (Lvl 4's)
I let all my targets come to 40 km or less from me , and I come back and salvage with a Golem after all is killed .
If the targets are way out there , I fly right at them and still try and keep the wreck radius tight as possible for the salvaging later.
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SurrenderMonkey
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Posted - 2010.02.23 17:58:00 -
[36]
Edited by: SurrenderMonkey on 23/02/2010 18:01:15
Originally by: Kzintee
Depends what you mean by "t1 battleship"...is that "Raven, Scorp, Rokh, Domi, Hype, Mega, Mael, Phoon, Pest, Geddon, Apoc, Abaddon"? Is it just the true "t1" BSes (example would be Raven...Abaddon is a "tier 3" battleship)? CNR is a faction BS...just like Scorp Navy is.
"T1" is referring to tech level, not tier. The OP is clearly looking for a ship that they can fly without the potentially huge time-sink of skilling for a tech 2 battleship.
...but, regardless of that, Raven is tier 2, not tier 1. Scorpion is the tier 1 Caldari BS.
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Faction-Militia:Player-Alliance::Newbie-corp:Player-corp |
Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2010.02.23 19:11:00 -
[37]
Originally by: RaVeN Revenge
I put my drones on frigs first . I generaly have 3 frigs and 3 BS targeted .My skills are almost specced for missioning and I solo every mission in the game except EA 5. (Lvl 4's)
I let all my targets come to 40 km or less from me , and I come back and salvage with a Golem after all is killed .
If the targets are way out there , I fly right at them and still try and keep the wreck radius tight as possible for the salvaging later.
and the golem?
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Xian Cthulhu
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Posted - 2010.02.23 21:04:00 -
[38]
He use CNR to kill then salvage with the golem lol...I could understand maybe if you killed with a domi and then cleaned up with a kronos.
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Tulisin Dragonflame
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Posted - 2010.02.24 05:34:00 -
[39]
To mostly echo what earlier posts have said: The missile boats are great because of their adaptable damage type, but if you know what you're going to be going up against (and when missioning in hisec for a certain faction, you usually do) a turret boat with ammo that drives right into the weak point of your chosen enemy is going to be more effective.
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