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Why aren't rats more relistic in damage and defence?

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Ick Ickagami	Posted - 2010.02.01 18:52:00 - [1] I've noticed that the rats in the game are woefully underpowered and under defended given their player counterparts. Also, why don't the rats use all the available weapons like a normal player would? They drop drones, and fly ships that allegedly have drone bays, so why don't they use them? And why are their defence numbers so pathetic? I would expect, for instance, cruiser class rats to be every bit as deadly and every bit as well defended as an average player cruiser. Instead we have pathetic, puny DPS and non-existant tanks, which is actually a dis-service to the players. They do missions and get used to the game, and then go out for some pew pew only to discover that what they thought was a good setup, because it was so good againts rats, is really nothing more than a flying coffin because the "real world" is so much different. The Sleeper rats are a lot more like what I would expect to see in PvE encounters. When can we expect that type of setup to become the norm in regular space? I'm not necessarily asking that the rats get smarter, just that they deal damage and have defences more in line with what a normal, average player would do.
Magnus Nordir Caldari Nordir Industries	Posted - 2010.02.01 18:59:00 - [2] Stealthy "I got my ass handed to me pvping in a mission fit" thread? c/d --------------------------- Only those who surrender are lost
Ick Ickagami	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:02:00 - [3] No, not at all. I tend to be observant and learn from other's mistakes. This is a serious question, one that I hope a representative from CCP gives an acceptable answer to.
Abrazzar	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:02:00 - [4] Rats = Common Mortals Players = Demigod Capsuleers Main difference, though a little boost in capabilities (with reduced numbers), drone spawns (instead of escort frigates), more diversity in tactics (faction specific) and more diversity in module use (including player level ewar and counter-ewar) would be appreciated. --------
Nova Fox Gallente Novafox Shipyards	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:12:00 - [5] Non Pod Captained (NPC) ships are woefully ineffiecent and not suited to deal with threats such as us Capsuleers. We as pod pilots represent the one in a million regular people whome we jettison out the door every day, kill ten thousand of for every battleship we sink, and treat less than the worth of trash sometimes. Our ability to control waton machines of mass destruction and become what all non capsuleer men fear, gods. Pre-order your Sisters of ≡v≡ Exploration ship today, Updated 27JAN10
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:12:00 - [6] What is the purpose of rats?
Last Wolf Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:13:00 - [7] I've been asking for missions to have their ship numbers cut down to 2-6 ships per mission (over 1-3 rooms) and have the ships beefed up considerably for years. Make them actually have a tank, do some damage, change ammo, use drones, use ewar. Doing the same mission twice the ships could have a different setup than last time. would be WAAAY more fun. Besides, I'm never gonna give you up, never gonna let you down
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:18:00 - [8] Edited by: Zeba on 01/02/2010 19:19:57 Originally by: Nova Fox Non Pod Captained (NPC) ships are woefully ineffiecent and not suited to deal with threats such as us Capsuleers. We as pod pilots represent the one in a million regular people whome we jettison out the door every day, kill ten thousand of for every battleship we sink, and treat less than the worth of trash sometimes. Our ability to control waton machines of mass destruction and become what all non capsuleer men fear, gods. /this We are one with our ships performing the function of an entire bridge crew at the speed of thought and relayed to the ship crew at the speed of light. By the time the mortal captain of the npc fleet has asessed the situation from the information spoken to him from his bridge crew then started giving out orders to relay to the fleet and then waiting for it to be followed we have already wiped out half his fleet. Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu The only thing separating us from frightened, feral monkeys is running water on tap, fuel in the tank, and current in our wall sockets.
chuck starlighter	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:30:00 - [9] There was talk from CCP that once the sleeper AI code was tested and found to be ok, they were going to start to give it the standerd rats, so they would start swapping targets and shooting your drones and other ships in your gang and repairing themselves etc just like the sleepers do.
Kyra Felann Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:31:00 - [10] While it's true that capsuleer-piloted ships are just straight up better than normally captained ships, it would be nice to see NPCs buffed a little, ie: sleeper-level AI, a little better fittings, etc. Right now they're just marginally reactive, slightly dangerous goodie-bags waiting to be harvested. I'd much rather see fewer but more challenging mission NPCs.

Captain Mastiff	Posted - 2010.02.01 19:39:00 - [11] It's because rats don't obey the standard fitting rules that we do. Run a few Serpentis missions and you will fine that some of their megathrons have around 10 turrets, that they have no real capacitor and that their recharge is chance based. You will also find that some elite frigates both appear to shield and armour tank extremely effectively. They are above us in the world of Eve.
Foraven Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.01 20:08:00 - [12] Rats used to be a challenge years ago, but the game changed and they did not. Back when player ships did not have as much hit points, fighting npcs was somewhat unforgiving. Now it's a joke. Story wise we are supposed to be more powerful than they are, but it's all the skills we can train that should make a difference, not that our ships are twice as strong without any fits... My character is only a few months old but i did try this game before.
Demolishar	Posted - 2010.02.01 20:27:00 - [13] Edited by: Demolishar on 01/02/2010 20:27:15 OK here's whats going on. First off they have no real skills, only enough to sit in their ships, no support skills or anything. Second, their lows are fitted with a full rack of WCS (and a single armor repairer if theyre an armor tanking race). This is obvious because they can still warp out even though you have several points on them. And their mids are filled with 1 MWD and perhaps a shield booster and the rest filled with cap boosters, since even if you neut them they can still rep and MWD. There you have it
Bluntroller	Posted - 2010.02.01 20:29:00 - [14] Rats would actually hurt if you didn't know what damage types they did and therefore have >80% resists to their damage types.
Foraven Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.01 20:39:00 - [15] Edited by: Foraven on 01/02/2010 20:40:08 Originally by: Bluntroller Rats would actually hurt if you didn't know what damage types they did and therefore have >80% resists to their damage types. Rats are pathetic enough i don't lower myself to have an even greater edge against them. So i never tailor my ship to who i am facing, i use what i have. Besides i use hybrids, they don't offer much variety in ammo types.
Tason Hyena Minmatar Blue Republic	Posted - 2010.02.01 20:47:00 - [16] There's like what, 30 rats plus sometimes in even a level one mission? Making them player-strong would kill off missioning at the start. Some of the hulltypes are destroyer and cruiser, and I don't know about you all, but everytime I fly a frig against one of those I get my ass handed to me. Let alone flying against 5 frigs and it. Yeah you can reduce the numbers but that would be a nerf of loot and salvage, and maybe ISK unless you boosted money from it.
Taedrin Gallente The Green Cross DEFI4NT	Posted - 2010.02.01 20:49:00 - [17] Edited by: Taedrin on 01/02/2010 20:49:27 Originally by: Foraven Rats used to be a challenge years ago, but the game changed and they did not. Back when player ships did not have as much hit points, fighting npcs was somewhat unforgiving. Now it's a joke. Story wise we are supposed to be more powerful than they are, but it's all the skills we can train that should make a difference, not that our ships are twice as strong without any fits... My character is only a few months old but i did try this game before. Don't forget that when CCP nerfed Level 4/level 3 rat bounties, they also cut the difficulty in half or so. Players who didn't have the proper support skills would need a battleship to do level 3 missions easily and level 4 missions were out of the question entirely for new players. You needed to put a good 6-10 months of skills under your belt before you were considered ready for level 4 missions back then. ---------- There is always a choice. The choice might not be easy, nor simple, nor the options be what you desire - but, nevertheless, the choice is there to be made.
Altair Bourne	Posted - 2010.02.01 21:40:00 - [18] I don't do ratting, I prefer to stay in the forest killing boars.
Ranger 1 Amarr Dynaverse Corporation Vertigo Coalition	Posted - 2010.02.01 22:00:00 - [19] Originally by: chuck starlighter There was talk from CCP that once the sleeper AI code was tested and found to be ok, they were going to start to give it the standerd rats, so they would start swapping targets and shooting your drones and other ships in your gang and repairing themselves etc just like the sleepers do. Yep, and I for one would like to see this happen although balancing things would be a huge undertaking. Special allowances would have to be made for level 1 missions perhaps, or would consist of little more than one or two frigates. Still, it would be much more challenging. And I know there are reasons why drones for NPC's aren't done, but I'd still like to see that as well. ===== If you go to Za'Ha'Dum I will gank you.
ISellThingz	Posted - 2010.02.01 22:11:00 - [20] Originally by: chuck starlighter There was talk from CCP that once the sleeper AI code was tested and found to be ok, they were going to start to give it the standerd rats, so they would start swapping targets and shooting your drones and other ships in your gang and repairing themselves etc just like the sleepers do. From what I've seen belt rats already do change targets. Few missions also have target changing rats.

MrBinary Minmatar Binary Systems	Posted - 2010.02.01 22:20:00 - [21] Originally by: chuck starlighter There was talk from CCP that once the sleeper AI code was tested and found to be ok, they were going to start to give it the standerd rats, so they would start swapping targets and shooting your drones and other ships in your gang and repairing themselves etc just like the sleepers do. Can confirm I have seen regular rats doing these things. Having recently returned from planetside myself, I was kinda surprised during a mission, to see several rats stop targeting me while already engaged. They clearly began focusing on my drones, and not me. Five I have also seen them repairing themselves. "[ 2004.05.20 20:11:42 ] Hodal Xibur > Die MrBinary"
Grapez The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple	Posted - 2010.02.01 22:43:00 - [22] Edited by: grapez on 01/02/2010 22:43:17 ^^^ @ the two people posting above me: Certain missions have ships that will preferably aggro drones until shot at (Damsel in Distress, for example). There is also sometimes a bug in very large mission areas that results in rats deaggroing, traveling back to their spawn points, and cycling targets (Worlds Collide 4), and I seem to remember this happening to belt rats if you strung them out too far from their spawn point, but these are accidents or cases of special coding as opposed to just better AI. I have not witnesses sleeper AI in either missions or belts that were not in a WH.
jk scowling Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.02.01 23:01:00 - [23] Rats are inefficient because no-one has told them about the shortcuts. Apparently they are still all using rollerball mice as well.
Higgs Bison	Posted - 2010.02.02 03:34:00 - [24] Originally by: jk scowling Rats are inefficient because no-one has told them about the shortcuts. Apparently they are still all using rollerball mice as well. Trackballs are actually significantly faster than mice.
Rhaetic	Posted - 2010.02.02 04:52:00 - [25] I remember reading somewhere that the average citizen in Empire space can expect to make 250k-750k ISK over the course of their lifetime -- dependent on what Empire they hail from (Minmitar do not tend to be as wealthy, for example). The "rich" average citizen will make several million. The fantastically wealthy will see several hundred million; perhaps a billion if they start with or found a legacy. Capsuleers? We throw away hundreds of millions on ships that we lose in a battle the very next day -- and don't dwell overmuch on the fact. The "rats" and even the Navy ships are captained by "normal" crews. They have to relay orders and digest information from a variety of sensors. They have to account for mistakes made by undertrained crewmembers and deal with order execution times on the order of minutes. Capsuleers, on the other hand, "jack into" their ships. It is generally accepted that they are the only person aboard an otherwise fully-automated platform, with the exception of capitals and supercapitals. The Fighters and Fighter-Bombers that Carriers launch? Those are manned by mortals, and they die a horrible death in the vacuum of space when they are shot down. Nevertheless, they are given orders -- controlled, if you will -- via neural link in the same manner that a Capsuleer would command a drone. The Fighter pilot may steer the ship and unleash weaponry, but his will is not his own. Given these facts, how can one expect an undertrained, undisciplined pirate to go toe-to-toe with a Capsuleer?
Maria Kalista Amarr Splinter Foundation	Posted - 2010.02.02 05:00:00 - [26] Edited by: Maria Kalista on 02/02/2010 05:00:17 Although I would love to see some change in how rats work now--> they're like sheep walking to the slaughter house, all of you should not forget your first level 4 mission or even level 3 mission. I remember getting my behind handed over to me more then several times doing the "blockade" or "the damsel in distress", when I climbed up the corporation ladder of agents available to me. I did at some point acquire enough skills to properly fit my ship and do enough DPS to 'master' the rats, but it was not something that happened over night. You'll probably come now with the ''it's a MMO youuuu stooooopid", but even in a medium sized corp there are moments you are alone or you just want to take this mission on all by yourself. So add sleeper "AI" to missions and trow in said missions, your day 1 level 3 or 4 mission runner. He'll go **splatt. He'll go !Boom! He'll go WTFBBQCCPOMGZORZ! Then he'll come back and die again and again and maybe one more time before he'll quit. For people who have run level 4's for month's there is hardly any challenge anymore in running them, (though I like what you did with 'Mining Misappropriation' CCP, that was quite devilish of you.) But for people who just start doing them they can be a real challenge. Adding sleeper "AI" would be overkill for them. Having said that, maybe add an option to the agents when you have a certain amount of standing with them where they can offer you for a bit more reward (not rat bounty not salvage or loot) a 'spiced' up version of the mission they are offering you. Originally by:** Jacharian This sounds like a bad idea. I'm in. We are recruiting!
Zaerlorth Maelkor The Maverick Navy IT Alliance	Posted - 2010.02.02 05:08:00 - [27] Originally by: Rhaetic I remember reading somewhere that the average citizen in Empire space can expect to make 250k-750k ISK over the course of their lifetime -- dependent on what Empire they hail from (Minmitar do not tend to be as wealthy, for example). The "rich" average citizen will make several million. The fantastically wealthy will see several hundred million; perhaps a billion if they start with or found a legacy. Capsuleers? We throw away hundreds of millions on ships that we lose in a battle the very next day -- and don't dwell overmuch on the fact. The "rats" and even the Navy ships are captained by "normal" crews. They have to relay orders and digest information from a variety of sensors. They have to account for mistakes made by undertrained crewmembers and deal with order execution times on the order of minutes. Capsuleers, on the other hand, "jack into" their ships. It is generally accepted that they are the only person aboard an otherwise fully-automated platform, with the exception of capitals and supercapitals. The Fighters and Fighter-Bombers that Carriers launch? Those are manned by mortals, and they die a horrible death in the vacuum of space when they are shot down. Nevertheless, they are given orders -- controlled, if you will -- via neural link in the same manner that a Capsuleer would command a drone. The Fighter pilot may steer the ship and unleash weaponry, but his will is not his own. Given these facts, how can one expect an undertrained, undisciplined pirate to go toe-to-toe with a Capsuleer? Order execution time in the matter of minutes, undiscipined crews? On starships a kilomter long? Dude... NO way it would ever be like this. It would still be top proffessional disciplined crews, to protect an military investment such as this! I do agree that pod pilots should have an inherent advantage against rats soley based on the backstory, but it shouldn't be totally outclassing them like it is now where you can setup your ship to tank 15 NPC BS plus their support. Making NPC's fewer, tougher but more rewarding would be nice. Coupled with systemwide belts so you'd need to search around a bit for them, would make it more interesting overall. However, you might want to consider a few things, first of all; I now have one of those annoying sigs. second; you should probably move on to some more interesting things than reading this sig.
Captain Futur3	Posted - 2010.02.02 11:38:00 - [28] this is something i noticed too. I would like to have tougher fights when big ships are in a mission. When i sit in a bc and i can tank 4 npc bc and additional cruisers+frigs.. it feels not very realistic to me. I would like to see a change here. I dont care if CCP just give rats and npcs in missions smaller ships or if they make them tougher but also not that often, but something in this direction would be nice.
Merouk Baas	Posted - 2010.02.02 12:11:00 - [29] Would you like to have "tougher fights" always, even when you're trying to make money? All MMO's have "easy" NPC's, they're there for the player to grind through and make money off of. This game is designed to incurr PVP expenses, and you already have several choices if you're looking for "tough, entertaining fights" - go PVP, there's several forms of it that you can choose from. At the same time, if you want to make money, mining is extremely boring, and ratting or mission grinding are pretty much the only OK activities available to anyone. So, no.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.02 13:37:00 - [30] Originally by: Ranger 1 Yep, and I for one would like to see this happen although balancing things would be a huge undertaking. Special allowances would have to be made for level 1 missions perhaps, or would consist of little more than one or two frigates. Still, it would be much more challenging. And I know there are reasons why drones for NPC's aren't done, but I'd still like to see that as well. It is very simple why it is not done. Reprogramming the rats stats and especially rebalancing the missions would require time. if CCp was even hinting at spending that level of Developers time in a PvE activity the PvP community would raise a very vocal protest and be mighty offended bit the time uselessly spent for PvE. If instead the Development part was cut short and the changed missions would be a half aborted attempt with little thought in it the PvE community would be ****ed off or find the weaknesses in the new system and exploit them to last isk (both probably, depending on the approach to the game of every players). As CCP probably don't want to spend that level of effort for PvE and at the same time don't want to irritate the missioners very little or nothing is done. They could surprise us and implement a new missioning system, but I doubt it. A pity as a more developed missioning system would be interesting.

Cipher Jones Minmatar	Posted - 2010.02.02 14:25:00 - [31] Heres why: This isn't the matrix and you aren't Neo. No human could beat a video game where the game was programmed to win every time without finding an exploit. the game has to be fun, not 100% realistic, after all. -------------------------------------------------- I'm so Old I can remember when QQ was TT
jx3p	Posted - 2010.02.02 14:27:00 - [32] Yes, let's make missions and ratting even more thrilling. The thought of having to press F1 more times during a fight makes me nervous with excitement.
Yonna Paris Gallente Hinata House	Posted - 2010.02.02 14:37:00 - [33] Originally by: Higgs Bison Originally by: jk scowling Rats are inefficient because no-one has told them about the shortcuts. Apparently they are still all using rollerball mice as well. Trackballs are actually significantly faster than mice. Rollerball mouse != Trackball
Rhaetic	Posted - 2010.02.03 05:51:00 - [34] Originally by: jx3p Yes, let's make missions and ratting even more thrilling. The thought of having to press F1 more times during a fight makes me nervous with excitement. All sarcasm aside, I believe the OP is proposing that Rats be given sufficient AI that you need to do more than turn on an Armor Repairer, CTRL-click to target them, and then light off all your weapons via an F1 group. IT would be nice if that time I spent training Electronic Warfare skills was useful in missions.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Initiative Mercenaries	Posted - 2010.02.03 06:25:00 - [35] Originally by: Rhaetic I remember reading somewhere that the average citizen in Empire space can expect to make 250k-750k ISK over the course of their lifetime -- dependent on what Empire they hail from (Minmitar do not tend to be as wealthy, for example). Uhm... Stop making things up. The 10k ISK we start the game with is considered a rather sizable fortune for normal citizens, leaving the capsuleer training out of reach for all but the richest of people.
Johnny Fontane The Nova Foundation	Posted - 2010.02.19 07:09:00 - [36] Forget the rp bull****. It would be nice if even rats in truesec -1.0 can be defeated buy pressing F1 and watching a movie until the reload warning is heard.
Niccolado Starwalker Gallente Shadow Templars	Posted - 2010.02.19 11:21:00 - [37] Rats are there for only one purpose: as moneybags up for grabbing. I dont want them to be a challenge unless you increase their bounty proportionally. Originally by: Dianabolic Your tears are absolutely divine, like a fine fine wine, rolling down your cheeks until they flow down the river of LOL.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Punic Corp.	Posted - 2010.02.19 11:58:00 - [38] Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 19/02/2010 11:58:35 Why not instead of having 5 NPC battleships that are each do less than a (player-flown) tech 1 cruiser in dps in a mission; have just one, make it do almost the same DPS and have almost the same tank as a real player battleship, and just give it the bounty of 5 current battleship mission rats? Wouldn't that be so much better? When I started playing back in early 2007 (actually, the very end of 2006), I remember CCP saying they were going to do pretty much that, as a part of the efforts to reduce lag. It's been 3 years since then. ----- 'In Eve, as in real life, if you are bored it's your own fault.'
N Ano Caldari Zerg Corp	Posted - 2010.02.19 12:20:00 - [39] Originally by: Banana Torres What is the purpose of rats? To make money!


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