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Nihilist
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Posted - 2003.06.25 15:48:00 -
[1]
Medium Turrets (Hybrid and Projectile with conclusive evidience), are factoring in Small Turret Lvls in addition to the medium lvl for dmg modification calulations.
Case 1
Scout 150 Dual Arty- Stock Dmg modifer 3.9x
Scout 425 Dual MM Arty, Stock DMG 3.9x
THe Small Scout 150 with lvl 3 Small Projectile Turret and Lvl 3 Surgical Strike is posting at 4.88x(3.9x1.05x1.05x1.05/1.03x1.03x1.03) {Smskill/surgical Strike)
Now, the Medium scout 425mm with Lvl 3 medium Proj. Turret and Lvl 3 Surgical Strike, should post the exact same 4.88x. However, it posts at 5.62x, which is exactly the adiition of 15% from the small turret lvl 3 skill (4.88x1.05x1.05x1.05)
Case 2
250 Prot Rail, stock Dmg 3.0x.
With lvl 3 Medium Hybrid Turret, and lvl 3 surigcal strike, the dmg sould be 3.8x (3x 1.05x1.05x1.05x1.03x1.03x1.03)
However, its posting at 4.39, which is exactly the addition of lvl 3 Small Hybrid Turret, 3.8x1.05x1.05x1.05)
Both of these examples are from a MOA, which gives no increase in Projectile or Hybrid DMG modifiers.
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Torval Sontu
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Posted - 2003.06.25 16:47:00 -
[2]
So you are saying that the MOA special or bonus isn't applying to hybrids like it should as well?
MOA has a 5% bonus to hybrid damage per level in caldari cruiser.
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Shintai
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Posted - 2003.06.25 16:49:00 -
[3]
No..Caldari got 5% longer range. Gallente got the 5% more damage.
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Valeria
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Posted - 2003.06.25 16:55:00 -
[4]
While we're on the subject, the Caldari cruiser +5% range per level is not working on my Blackbird. I've reported this ages ago but still not fixed in 1093?
As for the small and medium skill issue... maybe it is intentional? As far as I know it only does that for Lasers and Projectiles in 1077, so if they've done it for Hybrids aswell now, it probably is.
Your 425mm Prototype I Gauss Gun perfectly strikes some nublar, wrecking for 1155.0 damage. |
BSOD
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Posted - 2003.06.25 17:07:00 -
[5]
Does it for hybrids in 1077 too, and I think it always has.
I think it is intentional.
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Blue Screen of Death
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Exodus Enterprises |
Kimi
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Posted - 2003.06.25 18:10:00 -
[6]
I have heard that the lower turret skills stacking onto the higher ones is intenional, but I have never seen any verification of that.
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Sanul
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Posted - 2003.06.25 18:28:00 -
[7]
Correction here: this seems only valid for pirate drop weapons. I couldnt reproduce this additional damage modifier with one normal 250mm railgun. But 250mm prototype railgun does have an extra modifier equal to your small hybrid weapon.
Strange.
And I second that. My Moa does not receive the additional range for hybrid turrets from the cruiser skill.
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BSOD
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Posted - 2003.06.25 19:01:00 -
[8]
My normal factory-produced 250mm is getting the bonus from small hybrid turret skill.
I'm also getting the damage bonus of my Exequeror.
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Blue Screen of Death
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Exodus Enterprises |
Pyroe
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Posted - 2003.06.25 22:04:00 -
[9]
I've posted before and have been corrected by Solty. I and others have called for and recieved nothing from anyone of any power associated with CCP. They are under GAG it seems as they will never answer a direct question. They have disappeared into the nerfing boardroom and will not respond.
Rant off.
Now explain this to me please.
I continue to use 250 light artillery cannons as my test bench.
In a Stabber with no skill bonus for weapons.
Lvl 4 small projects 20% or 1.05 x 1.05 etc.
Lvl 3 Medium projects 15% or 1.05 x 1.05 etc.
Lvl 3 Surgical strike 15% or 1.03 x 1.03 etc.
The 250 is 3.25 damage truncated or not I give up. Rounded down sounds so much easier doesn't it? It shows 3.25 now any way so nm.
Whats my outcome guys?
You calculate using your numbers. Any way you like. Solty seems to be the resident expert so I really want to see his numbers.
I get exactly 4.251 showing as my damage on this gun so tell me please where the hell the numbers come from.
Please help figure this out as I can't seem to apply any numbers that give me this result. That or I'm too hot and tired to get it right.
As for the continued nerfs on the skills. Whats the fricken point anymore. gunnery being taken down to 2% means OH BOY at level 5 I'm a total of 10% better then someone without the skill. Yea its better then nothing but really, sooner or later the nerf bat is going to make it marginal at best to train up and if they introduce another level of skill to augment it OH BOY more time sink.
Edited by: Pyroe on 25/06/2003 22:05:34
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Nihilist
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Posted - 2003.06.25 23:07:00 -
[10]
Pyro, Your dmg on a stock 250 arty with your skills should be;
3.25x1.05x1.05.1.05x1.05(Small Turret Skill)x 1.03x1.03x1.03(surical Strike is 3% per levl not 5% as you had before)
Which is, 4.3x, so your guns are right around where they should be for the 250 arty.
********* medium turrets are factoring in the small + Medium skill, Small turrets are working "normally" and only factoring in the small skill.
Edited by: Nihilist on 25/06/2003 23:08:25
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soltys
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Posted - 2003.06.25 23:13:00 -
[11]
Hmm in case of your stabber, Pyroe:
4.251 = 3.25*1.09*1.2
where 1.09 is bonus from lvl3 surgical. 1.2 is bonus from... I would say you have lvl4 medium projectile ? if not then you get bonus from lvl4 small projectile, but then what about medium....
About other cases - I'm not sure. Nihilist has clear bonus from surgical (1.09) and medium (1.15). But something gives him another 1.15 to every medium weapon he mounts:
small dual 150:
3.9*1.15*1.09 == 4.88865
medium dual 425:
3.9*1.15*1.09*1.15 == 5.6219475
and etc.
Another explanation (besides stacking with small projectile) would be that Moa (being something of "advanced Merlin") has hybrid damage as additional bonus (like Merlin), but it's broken, so it gives bonus for both projectiles and hybrids. But this is a little far-fetched. This might explain Nihilist's examples.
But then what about minmatar ships (i.e. Pyroe's Stabber), or not stacking in case of some rare weapons (only pirate drops in Sanul's example), or BSOD's bonus both from gallante's genric bonus and stacking with small.
I dunno, not enough data to give exact answer :)
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Damage stats: click version v1.1.02 retail. |
StoreSlem
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Posted - 2003.06.25 23:50:00 -
[12]
your calculations are wrong nihilist.
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Nihilist
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Posted - 2003.06.26 00:15:00 -
[13]
Hey, Genius Storeslem,
How bout a little data to back up your statement, otherwise quit talking from your arse.
Show me where my calculations are wrong Einstein.
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Muaddid
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Posted - 2003.06.26 02:08:00 -
[14]
whats wrong is lvl 3 small hybrid turret gives 15% bonus not 1.05x1.05x1.05, which is 1.05^3,meaning 1.157625
same thing with SS, it gives +9% at lvl 3, not +9.2727%
On vacations (need a new sig too) |
Pyroe
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Posted - 2003.06.26 02:46:00 -
[15]
Thanks Soltys. Damn I must be too tired lol can't even punch the right keys on my calc.
So now I see the skills do not multiply like 5% x 5% x 5%. They in fact multiply added together such as 15%. I had 1.03 for surgical strike just typed it wrong as 15% instead of 9%.
Should have remembered these formula from your past posts.
Maybe as stated I don't see the medium stacking because I'm using a small project still. Would be nice to get some mediums but the only one I think worth getting is the dropped 425. Just havn't aquired any yet =[.
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Nihilist
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Posted - 2003.06.26 03:00:00 -
[16]
Muadid,
Thanks for clarifying the error, unlike some people who like to through out one line dejections to make themselves feel better.
In my original posts, the values I listed are absolute, meaning that is exactly what they are posting as in game. Yes, going through the numbers it appears that all % increase in each subset is added as a whole, that being Medium turret skill is 15%, Surgical Strike is 9% and Small turret is 15%, so the calculation is 3,9x1.15x1.09x1.15=5.62x
Now, i will conceed that the orignal formula was slighty inaccurate my assumption was based on the fact that sheilds, cap and cpu seem to follow the linear % muliplication path., however, that is completely irrelevant to the point being made, which is that Small turret skill is stackign with medium skill and Surgical Strike for total dmg calculation.
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BSOD
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Posted - 2003.06.26 14:06:00 -
[17]
250mm light arty is a small projectile I think.
So:
3.25*1.2*1.09 (SS is 3% per level) = 4.251 Medium proj won't affect small proj. Try benching with a medium weapon. You SHOULD see the medium weapon bonus and the small one stack.
(No ship bonus to dmg I guess...)
Skills do not multiply with themselves, but they do multiply with each other. So for someone flying a Gallente cruiser, without any weapon upgrades fitted, the form would be:
Dam Mod = Base DM * (1 + small hyb * .05) * (1 + med hyb * .05) * (1 + surg strike * .03) * (1 + gallente cruiser * .05)
Things get a little bit... interesting when fitting weapon upgrades such as gyros or MFS if you have surg strike.
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Blue Screen of Death
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Exodus Enterprises |
soltys
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Posted - 2003.06.26 17:04:00 -
[18]
Btw, TomB has confirmed that this is bug and will be fixed (in different weapon):
 Quote:
originally posted by TomB:
The stacking skills bug and the surgical strike affecting module attributes bug have been fixed, and lots more fixes - you can currently see them all on on the test server: Chaos.
Edited by: soltys on 26/06/2003 17:04:43
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Damage stats: click version v1.1.02 retail. |
Aras
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Posted - 2003.06.26 18:47:00 -
[19]
***whats wrong is lvl 3 small hybrid turret gives 15% bonus not 1.05x1.05x1.05, which is 1.05^3,meaning 1.157625
same thing with SS, it gives +9% at lvl 3, not +9.2727%***
bonuses are stacked.. which means if a skill give you 5% per level it is not a matter of adding your lvls so lvl 3 is not 15%.
If your base 100 then at lvl 1 is 105. at level two you don't get 100 x 10% you 105 x 5%. which is 110.25 as your modifer DOES NOT got back to 100 X 10% it's still 105 x another 5%.
**I'm a flower, watch me blossom... and kill** |
BSOD
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Posted - 2003.06.26 20:33:00 -
[20]
Aras: WRONG.
Skills to not stack on themselves. Many people have confirmed this numerically. Show me ONE EXAMPLE of a Lv3 skill giving 15.7625% bonus (1.05^3) rather than a 15% bonus. Good luck because you won't. (example: Refining 4 will give you 0.75 * 1.08 yield, or 81% yield)
They will stack with each other. (E.G. Refining 5 will give a 10% bonus on top of your 75% base yield for a total of 82.5% yield. Refining Efficiency will give a bonus of 4% per level on top of that, or 82.5% * 1.2 for Lv5 = 99%)
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Exodus Enterprises |
Redundancy
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Posted - 2003.06.26 21:48:00 -
[21]
is this using data from live or test though?
Redundancy |
StoreSlem
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Posted - 2003.06.26 23:00:00 -
[22]
Live.
Medium wpns getting bonus from small wpn skills is a good thing tho. Gives an incentive to train all skills, and also gives larger weapons a more realistical damage.
Without it the dual 425mm scout would only do marginally more damage than the dual 150mm scout, etc.
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soltys
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Posted - 2003.06.26 23:13:00 -
[23]
And TomB said it's already fixed on chaos (both medium/small stacking and surgical stacking with stabilizers).
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Damage stats: click version v1.1.02 retail. |
Lansing
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Posted - 2003.06.26 23:23:00 -
[24]
Quote..."is this using data from live or test though?"
What a wonderful reply from a polaris.
Are you knowledgeable or not?
If you don't know why bother to post this rubish.
If you are knowledgeable why post this rubish?
I see absolutley no reason for your reply. Do you?
It has been stated time and time again the results of testing. Many players take THIER time to test these things and post results.
You on the other hand come here and post something like trolling.
"is it real or memorex"
If it's a legit question I apologize in advance. But seriously does it matter if live or test?
The point is it's been around for weeks with no answers from the dev team at all.
Some of think polaris have some knowledge here. Your post makes me think your no better then the average player that doesn't bother to try things and post constructive results.
My opinion "sorry" of polaris is somewhat tarnished after one of your members RIPPED OFF a corp. Sorry for the prejudice and I do not wish to go into details, you and CCP know what I mean.
Again I state if this is a legit uninformed question I do appologize, If not I question WHY you even posted.
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Redundancy
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Posted - 2003.06.27 09:40:00 -
[25]
I post the question because I happen to know that its supposed to be fixed on the test server. If it's not fixed, then I have to make sure that it then gets fixed.
Your flame however, acheives nothing. I suggest you stow the attitude.
Redundancy |
BSOD
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Posted - 2003.06.27 13:38:00 -
[26]
I agree with StoreSlem here.
If small skill stacking with medium skill is removed, why bother flying a cruiser at all, when I can fly a frigate and kite pirates with no effort at all? Meanwhile, my cruiser now has been nerfed to do barely more damage than a frigate, and it flies at less than half the speed.
I can understand Surgical Strike being fixed, but I always thought that small turret skills stacking with medium turret skills was intentional. After all, it's a maximum of a 25% bonus over a frigate, don't you think a cruiser deserves a bonus like that considering it costs ten times as much?
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Blue Screen of Death
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Exodus Enterprises |
Athule Snanm
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Posted - 2003.06.27 13:56:00 -
[27]
Actually the difference is a maximum of 35% (45% if someone had level 5 Surgical Strike@5%/level) as the %s are multiplied rather than added.
I feel that the way the different ships are setup puts too much emphasis on cruisers - and in time I expect the same will be true of battleships, there are already a fair number floating around. Even after fixing the MWD imbalance they are still used by most people as super-frigates.
Personnally I think that cruisers should be able to mount massive weapons that do either special (maybe a small amount always going through shields) or large amounts of damage BUT that those weapons should have a low RoF. If a cruiser wants a high RoF then they'd still use the smaller frigate sized weapons, but mount more of them. This would then match the way real-world war-ships would be equipped.
I guess it's too late to do that now, but that's my opinion anyway. At least things did get a lot better with the MWD balancing.
Have fun
Finn
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