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Gladys Pank
Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2010.02.08 17:58:00 -
[31]
Brutix says yes please. ~ Soar Like a Penguin |
Maxsim Goratiev
Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.02.08 20:58:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 08/02/2010 20:57:58 i am sure this will surprise everybody, but i will say no. Th reason i say no is the simple fact that in my personal opinion the problem is not with the bonus, but with the vessels themselves, there characteristics. For example take britux. A blaster boat MUST have: A: Guns B: some sort of speed mod, lpreferably MWD C: a repper, since it has a repping bonus.
NOw, britux does not have the powergrid to fit these modules. Neither does it have the cap capable of supporting MWd, 7 cap-hungry guns and a repper. Now, in case you whant booster, or dual boosters, that's even more need for power grid. Pretty much the same goes for Hyperion. I hate to see these ships being shieldtancked. These are suppose to be high-dps ships with active tank, and yet they do not have the slots to support a powerfull tank and damage mods, they do not have the powergrid to fit the stuff they need, and they do not have the cap to sustain the mods.
The only reason i am supporting this, is because it will improve the situation over what we have currently, however i would like the ships to be looked at again, because when an armortancked ship with a bonus is outperformed by the very same ship shieldtanked, without any bonuces, that indicates that something is wrong.
Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes.StevieSG |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.02.08 21:15:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Maxsim Goratiev Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 08/02/2010 21:13:40 Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 08/02/2010 20:57:58 i am sure this will surprise everybody, but i will say no. Th reason i say no is the simple fact that in my personal opinion the problem is not with the bonus, but with the vessels themselves, there characteristics. For example take britux. A blaster boat MUST have: A: Guns B: some sort of speed mod, lpreferably MWD C: a repper, since it has a repping bonus.
NOw, britux does not have the powergrid to fit these modules. Neither does it have the cap capable of supporting MWd, 7 cap-hungry guns and a repper. Now, in case you whant booster, or dual boosters, that's even more need for power grid. Pretty much the same goes for Hyperion. I hate to see these ships being shieldtancked. These are suppose to be high-dps ships with active tank, and yet they do not have the slots to support a powerfull tank and damage mods, they do not have the powergrid to fit the stuff they need, and they do not have the cap to sustain the mods.
To explore this situation further, i will give you an example. Abaddon and hyperion are both 8-gunned battleships, with damage and tank bonus, both designed to be the heavy argument on the field for their race, IMO hate bricks for short. So let us explore why abaddon is successful, and hyperion is not. After you fit 8 highest caliber guns on an abaddon, them being mega pulse laser 2's, 8 of them, you still have 6450 units of power grid left. THose are t2 guns, with maximum advanced weapon upgrades skill.
After you fit 8 t2 neutron blaster on hyperion, you have 2670 units of power grid left. therefore, hyperion has almost THREE TIMES less resources avaliable for utility slots, such as MWD (with hyperion having a grater need for one since it has shorter range) cap boosters and plates. NOt only that, but hyperion has to fir armor repair units, that consume 4 times the power grid of an anmor plate- because if you do not fit it with reppers you are not using the ships bonus, so if anything, hyperion should have MORE power grid left over after you fit guns on it.
Surprisingly, Lasers also consume less cpu then blasters do, leaving abaddon more cpu for e-war and other utility modules. Hyperion natively has much weaker cap then the abaddon does, yet it has to support MWD and the reppers (1 or two, two if you whant a powerfull tank) when abaddon only needs to support lasers, again giving abaddon pilot grater freedom in fitting utilities. I have compared hyperion to abaddon as abaddon has the closest role to this batlteship, and as we can see it is inferior in every way. I ofcource understand that some ships might not be as good as others, but in this case, it is the ships that need fixing, not the bonus, there parameters and slot layouts. Hyperion at the moment is BROKEN. YEs, it can be used for different applications, but it does not exceed in ANYTHING. It is outtancked, outgunned and outperformed by other battleships in every area. Domi is more flexible, megathron has more dps, Abaddon has greatly better buffertank, maelstorm has better active tank. Apoc and rockh are better snipers. It does not have a niche currently, nor can it compete on even terms with it's opponents.
The only reason i am supporting this, is because it will improve the situation over what we have currently, however i would like the ships to be looked at again, because when an armortancked ship with a bonus is outperformed by the very same ship shieldtanked, without any bonuces, that indicates that something is wrong.
managing your cap makes you a good pilot. mismanagement makes you a bad pilot.
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Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.02.08 21:18:00 -
[34]
Quote: managing your cap makes you a good pilot. mismanagement makes you a bad pilot.
I phail to see how that is relevant to my post. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes.StevieSG |
darius mclever
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Posted - 2010.02.08 21:20:00 -
[35]
it was relevant before you edited it a second time. not my fault you are so undecided what you actually want to write.
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Spugg Galdon
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Posted - 2010.02.09 00:41:00 -
[36]
The Rokh is even worse off than the Hyperion when it comes to PG. The Rokh does have its sniping ability which gives it a niche/role to excell in even though this is debatable with the failure of Railguns and the power of frikkin' lazors.
The Hyperion is a ship that desperatly needs to be revisted and a larger bonus to active tanking would help.
People who say that active tanked ships will become 'invulnerable'..... please, have you ever neuted/been neuted an active tanked ship? They have no buffer and as soon as that capacitor dries up the ship is dead.
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Hellfury Resurrected
Incura
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Posted - 2010.02.09 09:44:00 -
[37]
Tank doesn't need a buff, we've done that once before, thanks. Buffer tanking needs a nerf. -------------------------------------------
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Maxsim Goratiev
Gallente Imperial Tau Syndicate
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Posted - 2010.02.09 10:12:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Maxsim Goratiev on 09/02/2010 10:16:53
Originally by: darius mclever it was relevant before you edited it a second time. not my fault you are so undecided what you actually want to write.
alright, now i see what you meant there. ok. Although, wouldn't it make these ships much more powerfull when running missions and stuff? Although, i still don't think they will match up for the raven anyway, but it is something to take into account. Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes.StevieSG |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2010.02.09 10:22:00 -
[39]
Even with overload/drugs and full resistance mods I don't see the active tanking BS's gaining more than 100-150 DPS tanked out of this and that sounds like a healthy improvement to me.
I will support this but I think any improvement to tanking requires a look at station hugging and RRing in terms of aggression.
Originally by: Jim Raynor EVE needs danger, EVE needs risks, EVE needs combat, even piracy, without these things, the game stagnates to a trivial game centering around bloating your wallet with no purpose. |
uwai223
Blue Republic
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Posted - 2010.02.09 10:56:00 -
[40]
I can only support that. htfu |
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Slave 775
Ministry of Punishment Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.09 11:26:00 -
[41]
supported
Centuries ago, the Bible warned of dangers posed by evil men described as master[s] at evil ideas and scheming to do bad. (Proverbs 24:8) PRIVATEERS Officialy nerfed by CCP 05/07 |
Dav Varan
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Posted - 2010.02.09 14:33:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Larkonis TrassIer With the prevelance of buffer tanks across all spectrums of PVP and the current uselessness of ships with 'Active Tank' boni I propose the following:
All ships with a 7.5% bonus per level to Repair mod effectiveness have it increased to 10% per level.
Currently, even in solo/small gang situations the 7.5% rep bonus is very nearly equalled in effectiveness by a 5% resist per level bonus in terms of raw damage tanked. The ship with the resist bonus however has the advantage of being able to, should he chooses, buffer tank his vessel and take full advantage of this bonus in RR gangs. The Rep bonus vessel does not.
Pros:
Ships with an Active tank bonus will be utilised more in solo/small gang warfare.
Cons: Possible slight buff to PVE boats.
The 7.5% active tank bonuses are useless as you state for RR gangs. How does your solution fix this ?
7.5% To active tank and 7.5% to buffer hp would be a better solution imo.
Enabling players to fit more resists and less hp for RR situations rather than simply boosting there soloability which is not the problem for these bonuses.
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Avan Sercedos
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2010.02.09 17:54:00 -
[43]
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Fettered Soul
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Posted - 2010.02.10 08:03:00 -
[44]
Maybe it is so because Gallente ships are not good for active tanking? Where should Hyperion and Brutix take cap if repair module consume energy, weapon consume energy, MWD and AB (you should have it, otherwise blasters are useless at all) consume energy. Myrmidon is very good because drones and projectiles do not consume energy :)
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Mixu Paatelainen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Tread Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.10 11:30:00 -
[45]
Supported.
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JitaPriceChecker2
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Posted - 2010.02.10 12:26:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Fettered Soul Maybe it is so because Gallente ships are not good for active tanking? Where should Hyperion and Brutix take cap if repair module consume energy, weapon consume energy, MWD and AB (you should have it, otherwise blasters are useless at all) consume energy. Myrmidon is very good because drones and projectiles do not consume energy :)
Myrmidron is good becuase netiher drones or projectilies arent broken like blasters are.
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Jouko Khazid'hean
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Posted - 2010.02.10 12:54:00 -
[47]
Active tanking ftw... someday maybe? s'ported
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Jizaburo Ozawa
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Posted - 2010.02.10 13:26:00 -
[48]
10 percent increase in armor repping per level is a solid step in the right direction for active armor tanking ships.
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Belsazzar
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Posted - 2010.02.10 14:29:00 -
[49]
<big resounding yes to increase the spectrum of useful fits in pvp
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Arcane Azmadi
First Flying Wing Inc Primary.
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Posted - 2010.02.10 15:10:00 -
[50]
Supported. I'd like to be able to fly a Cyclone and not be sneered at for not flying a Hurricane instead.
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Gavin Darklighter
THE FINAL STAND Black Star Alliance
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Posted - 2010.02.10 16:37:00 -
[51]
More than anything I would like a large cargohold size increase on all the active-tank bonus ships.
signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan |
Mynxee
Hellcats HellFleet
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Posted - 2010.02.10 19:17:00 -
[52]
Supported.
Bump It! | My Blog: Life in Low Sec |
Gaogan
Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.02.10 20:21:00 -
[53]
Not supported. Your proposal does nothing to address the problem. The repper bonus ships STILL will not be able to use that bonus in buffer/rr settings. They will just be even better pve monsters.
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grypher
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Posted - 2010.02.11 01:36:00 -
[54]
+1
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Larkonis Trassler
Genos Occidere Sev3rance
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Posted - 2010.02.11 02:29:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Gaogan Not supported. Your proposal does nothing to address the problem. The repper bonus ships STILL will not be able to use that bonus in buffer/rr settings. They will just be even better pve monsters.
Bawww? There's more to PVP than buffer/RR slugfests. As I stated in the OP there's very little incentive to use these ships over their resist bonused counterparts in an 'active' tanked role.
It's not perfect I'll admit but it's a little step and a start.
Please resize your signature to the maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist No. Larkonis |
Nian Banks
Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2010.02.11 14:47:00 -
[56]
Originally way way before the popularity of RR gangs and massive buffer tanked blobs, were talking years here.. 4+ The repair bonus was 5%, the same as the resist bonus. CCP at the time realized how superior the resist bonus was to the repair bonus so they increased it to the current 7.5%
Fast forward to present and you find that larger scale pvp is almost exclusively RR Ganga and buffer tanks, something CCP did not expect or make plans for.
Because of this, local repairs are almost dead and the ships with the repair bonus are less effective.
This is an old issue now and has been discussed many times, the first comprehensive math based discussion has long since been lost on the eve forums but the basic outcome of that thread was the realization that a repair bonus overtakes a resist bonus in a very small margin of incoming dps after about 2 minutes and then is superior by just 2%. Basically in 9/10 times (an out my butt number) the resist bonus is far superior.
If the repair bonus was increased however to 10%, there is a very real and tangable superiority in small to mid sized engagements where a repair bonus would be superior.
This to me makes it worth fighting for so /signed
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Garr Anders
Thukk U
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Posted - 2010.02.11 17:19:00 -
[57]
Supporting this!
Those who fear that it might be too much, active tanking is still vulnerable to cap warfare. ----- Garr Anders
"The only winning move is not to play" is about the best damn advice anyone can get regarding arguing over the internet. - referring to the Movie WarGames 1983
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Ephemeron
Retribution Corp. Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2010.02.11 18:42:00 -
[58]
I still believe that the main cause of the problem here is overpowered buffer/passive tanking. Specifically since rig prices have dropped significantly and Small/Medium rigs became extremely cheap. The 15% extra hp rigs give huge advantage to buffer tanking.
And I don't like the trend of increasing battle duration with stronger defense vs offense, as that makes active tanking more sensitive to cap issues. I know CCP has some understanding of this issue since they reduced cap booster charge sizes.
Stop the never ending boosts to tanking. Nerf buffer tanking.
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Shasz
Noir.
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Posted - 2010.02.11 18:53:00 -
[59]
+1
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Bidoc
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Posted - 2010.02.14 17:47:00 -
[60]
Yeah, I like this 1. Active tanks defiantely need some love.
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