| Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
RAW23
   |
Posted - 2010.02.09 10:30:00 -
[1]
Edited by: RAW23 on 09/02/2010 10:37:11
I am in a bit of a quandary and would like to canvass some advice.
Having been looking at relatively passive ways of adding to my income, I had decided to launch a business services venture, buying and selling data, doing consultancy work, offering loans and holding collateral - that sort of thing. My intention was to launch a bond within the next week to raise some additional capital to do this. I was intending to go for 10 bil, backed by 10 bil of my unsecured bonds in One Stop (possibly raising another 10 bil further down the line if homes could rapidly and profitably be found for the first 10). This business was intended to run alongside my current low maintenance trade and industry operations (I failed badly at PvP and got sucked back to isk making fairly quickly), reworked over the last few weeks to aim to bring in a very easy 1-2bil a week for little effort.
So, my first question would be, what would a reasonable ROI for such a bond be? On the up side, it would be less than half of the public funds I have held before (although with the possibility of an expansion to the same level) and as such should, I hope be seen as an unlikely target for a rational scammer who could have walked earlier with a much higher profit. It will also be collateralised to it's full value. On the downside, the collateral itself is unsecured, so it is a backstop but not a complete guarantee. My ideal return for this would be 4% and I would be willing to let it take a while to fill. In fact, it wouldn't even need to fill as I would be able to make good use of whatever additional funds came in at this rate.
Now, this picture was complicated yesterday when I found a nice low maintenance industrial operation that I could run for a profit of 500mil a day using just my current liquid funds. This could be increased to 800mil-1bil a day with an additional 20 bil of funding. However, this latter opportunity is probably time sensitive, hence my desire to take everything I can from it quickly, as it is dependent on favourable market conditions which are highly unlikely to change overnight but which may well tail off over the next month. So, now I want to put the consultancy business on the back burner for a month and raise 20 bil for this project as a one month bond with the same collateral (the former bond being indefinite in length). However, I would want to fill this one as quickly as possible. So, again, I'm looking for suggestions for rates, but this time rates that would likely attract funds rapidly.
I'd also be very interested in any suggestions as to how these could be made to work together. The basic problem is that the two primary factors guiding each bond are completely different: low ROI in order to make collateralised loans profitable, in the first case, high filling speed to take advantage of market conditions in the short term, in the second case. And I do not want to increase my maximum previously held public funds at this time. I have been trusted with 20bil before and would much rather get a lower rate than borrow more money this time.
None of this can go forward until Thursday, in any case, as that is when my previous bond will pay off.
All comments welcome. Feel free to impugn my character and honesty - I promise I won't throw a fit this time.
|
Ji Sama
Caldari
Tash-Murkon Prime Industries
United Corporations Of Modern Eve
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 11:34:00 -
[2]
there is really a heavy market for this right now, but the more the merrier :D
what i really would like to see is for all us semi- brokers/auditors/advisors etc. to get together, and form a thought of insurance hedge-fund :D
|
SetrakDark
Caldari
DarkCorp Holdings
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 13:48:00 -
[3]
1)4%
2)6-7% (7% seems to fill bonds pretty damn fast)
3)1st come 1st serve roll-over option after 1 month from business bond to consultancy bond
My secretary will be sending you a bill. I accept payment only in corresponding parts of crash and exotic dancers.
|
Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 14:21:00 -
[4]
You can always do a dutch auction for the interest.
|
RAW23
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 14:28:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Breaker77
You can always do a dutch auction for the interest.
I'd like to do one of these at some point as it would be good to know the market value of my debt but to give the bidding a fair go takes a bit of time and I would like to get this rolling as soon as possible. I'm going to offer 6% (7% for previous investors) and will edit the OP to turn it into an offering. Setrak - Dancing girls are on their way to you as payment in kind.
|
Rasheki
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 15:03:00 -
[6]
I would like to reserve 5 bonds (500m).
|
Dezolf
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 15:14:00 -
[7]
I'd like to reserve 1 bond (100mil) |
Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 15:14:00 -
[8]
I'll take 10. I'll have 1 bil liquid by then.
|
RAW23
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 15:20:00 -
[9]
Reservations
Rasheki - 5 bonds (500mil)
Dezolf - 1 bond (100mil)
Breaker77 - 10 bonds (1bil)
|
Claire Voyant
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 15:21:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ji Sama
what i really would like to see is for all us semi- brokers/auditors/advisors etc. to get together, and form a thought of insurance hedge-fund :D
Could you try again in English this time, or at least expand on the idea so we can figure out what you mean?
|
Lost Hamster
Hamster Holding Corp
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 15:29:00 -
[11]
Would like to reserve 10 bond - 1b ISK
|
Kithran
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 15:45:00 -
[12]
Could I reserve 1 bond.
Cheers
Kithran
|
Nouva MacGyver
Caldari
MacGyver Communications
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 15:45:00 -
[13]
Hello Raw.
Got the mail, read this thread and I've given it due consideration. Apologies but I've taken the liberty to wire over the ISK for 15 bonds (totaling 1.5bil) minutes ago from this post. A confirmation is appreciated.
Good luck and have fun Raw, and regards.
|
RAW23
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 15:57:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Nouva MacGyver
Hello Raw.
Got the mail, read this thread and I've given it due consideration. Apologies but I've taken the liberty to wire over the ISK for 15 bonds (totaling 1.5bil) minutes ago from this post. A confirmation is appreciated.
Good luck and have fun Raw, and regards.
No need to apologise. Confirming 1.5 bil received. Thanks for the investment!
Also, thanks to all those who have reserved so far.
|
Lord SPAM
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 16:12:00 -
[15]
Reserve 3 bonds plz.
300 mill
- Its All fun and games till someone loses a Jedi... |
cosmoray
Bella Vista Holdings Corp
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 16:13:00 -
[16]
Just one question.
Show me a BS BPO production line that makes 10 BS's a day?
At perfect production and skills you can make around 6 per day.
A maxed skilled production character running 11 lines can make about 60-66 BS's per day, running 9 makes 50-54.
At full tilt I used to make about 300 a day (need 90B in minerals to run 24/7).
|
Claire Voyant
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 16:24:00 -
[17]
Originally by: cosmoray
Just one question.
Show me a BS BPO production line that makes 10 BS's a day?
At perfect production and skills you can make around 6 per day.
8 per day per BPO is the max. 3 hours and 6 minutes with PE20 and a F60 implant to be exact.
|
Jolonnar Hirdious
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 16:25:00 -
[18]
Is the reservation period only open to previous investors?
If not, I'd like to reserve 5 bonds (500 million) please. Thanks!
|
Marcus Baltar
Savaran Zhayedan Spah
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 16:25:00 -
[19]
Can I reserve 3 bonds (300 million ISK), please?
Thanks.
--
|
Rasheki
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 16:38:00 -
[20]
RAW: Just confirming: I will not be in-game until 2300, I will forward you the funds for my 5 reserved at that time.
|
RAW23
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 16:39:00 -
[21]
Edited by: RAW23 on 09/02/2010 16:44:30
Edited by: RAW23 on 09/02/2010 16:39:05
Originally by: Claire Voyant
Originally by: cosmoray
Just one question.
Show me a BS BPO production line that makes 10 BS's a day?
At perfect production and skills you can make around 6 per day.
8 per day per BPO is the max. 3 hours and 6 minutes with PE20 and a F60 implant to be exact.
PE 10 with a time bonus of 0.75 from using Large Ship Arrays. IIRC 10 runs at PE10 takes about 25 hours.
Edit - Rasheki, please hold off sending me the funds just yet. Previous investors will be given priority (so they can send fund whenever they are ready) so it is possible that some people may get bumped off the bottom of the list (very unlikely that you will though, being first in, but just to keep things consistent ...).
|
Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 16:39:00 -
[22]
I just don't get where some of your numbers are coming from. Some have already mentioned the production related numbers but I don't get some of your profit numbers. Also, considering the amount you already claim to be producing and the increased amount you want to be producing, how does the cost of pyerite play into this? You've got to buy loads of it and its not cheap right now.
|
RAW23
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 17:01:00 -
[23]
Edited by: RAW23 on 09/02/2010 17:03:19
Originally by: Amarr Citizen 155
I just don't get where some of your numbers are coming from. Some have already mentioned the production related numbers but I don't get some of your profit numbers. Also, considering the amount you already claim to be producing and the increased amount you want to be producing, how does the cost of pyerite play into this? You've got to buy loads of it and its not cheap right now.
Well, as far as I can see, my production numbers are right and Cosmo's are way, way off. I just don't see any problem there. He just failed to account for PE research and bonuses for producing at a POS.
As to the profit numbers, well, I'm not going to tell you exactly what I'm building but hopefully if you plug current mineral buy prices into Akita's master spread sheet (along with PE etc) you can compare the build costs of the various battleships to their insurance payouts here http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1196694&page=1#23.
If you then want to tell me that my numbers are not possible, I will listen. I could have made a typo somewhere in filling in the data but I've checked it a few times now and margins are pretty healthy, for the time being at least. As to pyerite, obviously, as costs go up so my profits come down but the same is true for all the minerals. Whilst pyerite is a likely choke point that may make me stop doing this before the month is up if profits go down enough it is unlikely to do so in the first few days of this bond. And if it does and this venture doesn't make me any money, I'll just pay the interest out of my pocket. It's not really that big a risk for me for a pretty decent reward.
Edit - Also, as far as I'm aware I haven't claimed to have already started producing. I did run a similar business for 4-6 weeks during my previous bond though.
|
cosmoray
Bella Vista Holdings Corp
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 17:07:00 -
[24]
Didn't figure POS, otherwise the numbers don't look bad.
Current Rokh build is about 106 (+/-).
Sell around 113, gives about 6M profit (1M for BPC).
6M profit per ship if turn around fast enough.
500M per day is possible if good logistics and sales.
|
Amarr Citizen 155
Nordar Innovations.
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 17:19:00 -
[25]
Originally by: RAW23
As to pyerite, obviously, as costs go up so my profits come down but the same is true for all the minerals. Whilst pyerite is a likely choke point that may make me stop doing this before the month is up if profits go down enough it is unlikely to do so in the first few days of this bond. And if it does and this venture doesn't make me any money, I'll just pay the interest out of my pocket. It's not really that big a risk for me for a pretty decent reward.
This was really the point I was making. At the quantities you will be using you will be forced to buy in trade hubs at high prices. Buy orders simply won't be filled quickly enough to produce the numbers you are aiming for.
Originally by: RAW23
Edit - Also, as far as I'm aware I haven't claimed to have already started producing. I did run a similar business for 4-6 weeks during my previous bond though.
Yeah my mistake on this one, I saw you mention that the 20b would be used for "expansion" and assumed that you already had a business up and running to "expand" on.
|
RAW23
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 17:40:00 -
[26]
Edited by: RAW23 on 09/02/2010 17:42:38
Originally by: cosmoray
Didn't figure POS, otherwise the numbers don't look bad.
Current Rokh build is about 106 (+/-).
Sell around 113, gives about 6M profit (1M for BPC).
6M profit per ship if turn around fast enough.
500M per day is possible if good logistics and sales.
Thanks Cosmo. Also to you and Claire for the excellent in game logistics advice - should save me a huge amount of time and effort, which is exactly what I'm trying to do with this bond.
Edit
Jolonnar - reservations are open to everyone (your reservation is noted - thank you) but prior investors etc will get bumped to the top of the list if the bond is overbooked.
|
Phatstabley
Gallente
Resurrection
Gentlemen's Club
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 17:49:00 -
[27]
I'll take 10 bonds if you don't fill up with previous investors.
|
Varo Jan
Caravanserai Consulting
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 18:08:00 -
[28]
Originally by: RAW23
The bond will be secured against my 20 billion worth of bonds in One Stop and I will ask Varo to post here confirming that in the event of default, scam, or hit by a bus, ownership of those bonds will be transferred to my investors on a 1 isk for 1 isk basis.
I confirm that in the event of a default, scam, or hit by a bus scenario, ownership of One Stop Buyout unsecured bonds will be transferred from RAW23 to the investors in "RAW Materials Insurance Fraud" bonds on an ISK for ISK basis.
|
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 19:30:00 -
[29]
I'd like to reserve 10 bonds please.
|
The Mattius
Enigma Technologies
|
Posted - 2010.02.09 19:33:00 -
[30]
Reserving 10 Bonds (1 Bil isk)
Subject to availability as a new investor
TM
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |