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Salvaging someone else's wreckage - an aggressive act?

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Joshua Swift	Posted - 2010.02.09 22:55:00 - [1] Hello, I couldn't find any posts directly related to this on the first few pages, so in lieu of bumping an old post here it is: should salvaging the wreckage of a ship you didn't kill make you aggressive towards person who destroyed the ship? I believe it should, and here's why. Simply put, salvage is as valuable (if not more so in some cases, see 'capacitor consoles') as the loot inside a wreckage. I don't agree with the argument that wrecks themselves are ownerless; wrecks clearly are associated with the person who created them. Mouse over a wreck and you can see the corp/alliance tag of the person who spawned it. Beyond those technicalities, the act of ninja salvaging is CLEARLY A PIRATE ACT. The person salvaging your wreckage has every intention of STEALING from you, and should be treated accordingly. If you take a single worthless ammo charge from someone's wreck they can shoot you down, but taking millions of isk in salvage can't be retaliated against? Currently, the bottom line is this: you can steal valuable items from other players with no consequences whatsoever. This isn't the type of game I want to play; if I can't shoot you for clearly and intentionally stealing from me than it's time for me to start playing something else. How do you all feel about this?
DuKackBoon	Posted - 2010.02.09 23:01:00 - [2] The Wrecks belong to nobody, only the loot does.
Joshua Swift	Posted - 2010.02.09 23:02:00 - [3] When I destroy a ship, even if there's no loot in it, my corp/alliance tag is shown when I mouse over that wreckage. How is it not mine?
Nobani Merch Industrial SOLODRAKBANSOLODRAKBANSO	Posted - 2010.02.09 23:02:00 - [4] You are the 1,000,000th ninja salvaging thread creator!!! Please click here to claim your prize.
Joshua Swift	Posted - 2010.02.09 23:11:00 - [5] Dude that link doesn't work. Where's my prize? =/ Seriously though. I've seen the posts relating to this issue, but to say that a wreck that is EXPLICITLY associated with the player who created it belongs to no one just doesn't make sense.
Samantha U	Posted - 2010.02.09 23:25:00 - [6] Read the quotes by a CCP developer in this post, your argument fails, get over it.
Joshua Swift	Posted - 2010.02.09 23:29:00 - [7] I've read those posts. Despite your clever and degrading reply, I disagree. CCP's argument is that a technicality in the way their server processes salvage trumps one player's intention to profit off of another player's effort. It's still blatant theft.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.02.09 23:37:00 - [8] Originally by: Joshua Swift I've read those posts. Despite your clever and degrading reply, I disagree. CCP's argument is that a technicality in the way their server processes salvage trumps one player's intention to profit off of another player's effort. It's still blatant theft. well everyone else including CCP disagrees with you. it is really amazing how much whine you get for a few hundred thousand isk. you will really go poor about it.
Samantha U	Posted - 2010.02.09 23:45:00 - [9] Originally by: Joshua Swift I've read those posts. Despite your clever and degrading reply, I disagree. CCP's argument is that a technicality in the way their server processes salvage trumps one player's intention to profit off of another player's effort. It's still blatant theft. So despite the fact that you've already read those comments by the Dev's you still think you know better. I wonder how many ninjas are going to be looking for you now?
Joshua Swift	Posted - 2010.02.09 23:46:00 - [10] The really amazing thing is how quickly people are willing to type messages solely with the intention of making their e-***** bigger. Salvage can be worth millions of ISK. So you all disagree with the idea that someone scan probing you and warping to you with the intention of profiting off of wrecks that have your clan and alliance tag on them isn't blatant stealing? Do you honestly think ninja salvagers do all of that while telling themselves 'these wrecks belong to no one?' It's stealing, plain and simple. There are more people doing now simply because it has CCP's seal of approval, and they will deliberately taunt the people they're stealing from while they're doing it. In the real world, intent means a lot. Here in EVE, intent is dictated by how the server processes certain functions. Instead of trying to rationalize theft through the lens of server functionality, we should be trying to analyze why so many people feel that the wrecks belong to them. Maybe it has something to do with their clan and alliance tag being pinned on to every ship they destroy?
Grarr Dexx Amarr GK inc. Panda Team	Posted - 2010.02.09 23:48:00 - [11] Eve isn't the real world. Hell, even if you take this 'real world comparison', salvage is free-for-all. ___
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.02.09 23:49:00 - [12] gets popcorn keep it coming joshua. :) maybe i should feel bad that i gave that lone thrasher pilot a full mission for salvage and loot after he probed me out. though he had some fun with the scrap metal for sure^^ (on that note. CCP please add a popcorn smiley. with all those salvage and cloak whine threads we will need it.)
grazer gin	Posted - 2010.02.09 23:50:00 - [13] someone please insert CCPs responses to this for me and while your at it make me a sandvich
Virgil Travis Gallente	Posted - 2010.02.09 23:51:00 - [14] It's not always the money ninjas do it for, and you do realise that whining about them in this forum is like spreading blood on the waters.
Amneamnius	Posted - 2010.02.09 23:53:00 - [15] Originally by: Joshua Swift The really amazing thing is how quickly people are willing to type messages solely with the intention of making their e-*** bigger. Salvage can be worth millions of ISK. So you all disagree with the idea that someone scan probing you and warping to you with the intention of profiting off of wrecks that have your clan and alliance tag on them isn't blatant stealing? Do you honestly think ninja salvagers do all of that while telling themselves 'these wrecks belong to no one?' It's stealing, plain and simple. There are more people doing now simply because it has CCP's seal of approval, and they will deliberately taunt the people they're stealing from while they're doing it. In the real world, intent means a lot. Here in EVE, intent is dictated by how the server processes certain functions. Instead of trying to rationalize theft through the lens of server functionality, we should be trying to analyze why so many people feel that the wrecks belong to them. Maybe it has something to do with their clan and alliance tag being pinned on to every ship they destroy? The wreck has your alliance ticker because it is a container belonging to your alliance. If someone takes from that container, it is theft. The Salvager I module is a data and composition scanner*; It does not remove from the container, and once the wreck is salvaged, the container is still there. If salvaging would be considered an agressive act, so would cargo scanning, ship scanning, and anyone hit by a combat scanner probe in high sec would get agression to the ship scanning; so no. You honestly think your* whining will make ccp change the mechanic? after hundreds of thousands have whined to the same tune before. I think not. Grow up. Move out of high sec. There you can shoot anyone if they steal your salvage or not. ---ps. salvaging giving agression would result in a hell of a lot more dead missioners.
darius mclever	Posted - 2010.02.09 23:56:00 - [16] Originally by: Amneamnius Grow up. Move out of high sec. There you can shoot anyone if they steal your salvage or not. ---ps. salvaging giving agression would result in a hell of a lot more dead missioners. someone learned the lesson
Joshua Swift	Posted - 2010.02.09 23:56:00 - [17] Edited by: Joshua Swift on 09/02/2010 23:56:48 Taking something you haven't worked for is theft in the real world. If we could compare this issue with a real life one, the salvage in question would have my corporation's logo on it, making it our property. The people doing this have no illusions about their actions not being theft, and they revel in the fact that it's endorsed by CCP. But apparently the statements of game developers are enough to make you all think that taking something you didn't work for is OK. I'm done with this thread, have a good day.
XXSketchxx Gallente Remote Soviet Industries	Posted - 2010.02.09 23:57:00 - [18] Originally by: Joshua Swift The really amazing thing is how quickly people are willing to type messages solely with the intention of making their e-*** bigger. Salvage can be worth millions of ISK. Get a marauder then. Salvage while you go. Success! Or just leave the hubs. Quote: So you all disagree with the idea that someone scan probing you and warping to you with the intention of profiting off of wrecks that have your clan and alliance tag on them isn't blatant stealing? Its not. Would you prefer that the wreck and can of loot were separate? Wreck neutral, can tagged. IMO they should both be neutral. Quote: Do you honestly think ninja salvagers do all of that while telling themselves 'these wrecks belong to no one? Some definitely do. Quote: It's stealing, plain and simple. CCP says it isn't. CCP makes the rules. Guess what that means? Quote: There are more people doing now simply because it has CCP's seal of approval, and they will deliberately taunt the people they're stealing from while they're doing it. IMO its the tears on these forums and the tears in local that have made ninjasalvaging take off so well Quote: In the real world, intent means a lot. ::internetspaceshipgame:: Quote:** Here in EVE, intent is dictated by how the server processes certain functions. Instead of trying to rationalize theft through the lens of server functionality, we should be trying to analyze why so many people feel that the wrecks belong to them. Maybe it has something to do with their clan and alliance tag being pinned on to every ship they destroy? So you agree that a good technical fix would be to make wrecks and cans of loot drop separately, with wrecks being FFA and cans being tagged? _____________________________________________ -Sketch, Certified Pharmacist Need a Boost?
De Guantanamo	Posted - 2010.02.09 23:58:00 - [19] Originally by: Joshua Swift I'm done with this thread, have a good day. Please request for CCP to lock thread then.
Samantha U	Posted - 2010.02.10 00:07:00 - [20] Originally by: Joshua Swift Edited by: Joshua Swift on 09/02/2010 23:56:48 Taking something you haven't worked for is theft in the real world. If we could compare this issue with a real life one, the salvage in question would have my corporation's logo on it, making it our property. The people doing this have no illusions about their actions not being theft, and they revel in the fact that it's endorsed by CCP. But apparently the statements of game developers are enough to make you all think that taking something you didn't work for is OK. I'm done with this thread, have a good day. Real life? You do realise this is a game? Get a grip you whining little child. Through actually playing the game, I picked up a way to help avoid having the ninjas enter your missions. Maybe if you actually get out of high sec once in a while and learn other parts of the game besides just running your missions all day there, you might figure it out too. It's not rocket science and anyone who has spent some time surviving in low or null sec can probably figure out the method I use, it requires no extra modules on your ship or skills to be trained and is available to every player in the game if they choose to learn how to use it.
Amneamnius	Posted - 2010.02.10 00:16:00 - [21] Originally by: Joshua Swift Edited by: Joshua Swift on 09/02/2010 23:56:48 But apparently the statements of game developers are enough to make you all think that taking something you didn't work for is OK. . I started by giving the actual reason why salvaging other people's wrecks is ok, I was going to explain that you don't work for the wrecks, you work for killing the rats, but now, I'm going to simply say this: HAHAHAHAHA NOOOB Do you have your parent's permission to play here? Can i has ur stufF?
Tason Hyena Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2010.02.10 00:59:00 - [22] Heh, slight problem though. If you don't own the wreck, how can you abandon it? Why is stealing loot considered stealing then? It's odd that you can have a claim on the contents of a wreck, and yet not on the wreck itself. If anything salvaging a wreck would include its contents and modules. It's inconsistent imo, and as someone who does ninja at times people are mostly defending it because you can do it without repercussions. It has zero to do with theory or roleplay reasons, and all about getting stuff for free without being blown up. I can go get a cheap frig or dessy, scan for a few minutes, and make free money without anyone being able to do much of anything. That's the real issue.
Altie McName	Posted - 2010.02.10 02:16:00 - [23] Originally by: Joshua Swift Edited by: Joshua Swift on 09/02/2010 23:56:48 Taking something you haven't worked for is theft in the real world. If we could compare this issue with a real life one, the salvage in question would have my corporation's logo on it, making it our property. The people doing this have no illusions about their actions not being theft, and they revel in the fact that it's endorsed by CCP. But apparently the statements of game developers are enough to make you all think that taking something you didn't work for is OK. I'm done with this thread, have a good day. One problem, EVE doesn't always reflect real world functions. In this fantasy space ship world known as EVE, the rules are different and ever changing. If you want everything to reflect real life in a game, and the thought of someone not going by your desires because you think differently upsets you, this isn't the game for you. CCP endorses mission running, under your same analogy, you are just as guilty as a ninja salvager for doing missions, which are very easy and takes effort to fail, unless you're purposefully getting in over your head. Same with every aspect that isn't deemed and exploit or glitch, it's CCP approved, or under your analogy, only things that affect you should be changed to increase your play style and not everyones? --- CCP wants you to HTFU!
Red Teufel	Posted - 2010.02.10 03:31:00 - [24] So if you try to run me over in your car and I shoot you in the head....I'm only legally able to recover what's in the glove compartment but other people can take the car? So I get some ****ty ass sunglasses and you get to sell the engine, tires, and the rims? All those who negative post against Joshua's argument are the ones who profit off this eve injustice. WTF concord do your job! I'm not paying taxes for nothing am I!
Joshua Swift	Posted - 2010.02.10 03:39:00 - [25] Yes, I said I was done, but the lack of reading comprehension in this thread begs for me to clarify. First off, I know this game isn't real life, which is why I used terms like 'if we COULD compare this to real life.' This was purely for comparison and analogy, not because I think EVE and real life are somehow interchangeable. Reading the first line of a post and scrambling to reply with some useless, adolescent insult so you can look cool and witty on a gaming forum is just pathetic. If all you're going to do is whine about whiners, save it. Originally by: Tason Hyena Heh, slight problem though. If you don't own the wreck, how can you abandon it? Why is stealing loot considered stealing then? It's odd that you can have a claim on the contents of a wreck, and yet not on the wreck itself. If anything salvaging a wreck would include its contents and modules. It's inconsistent imo, and as someone who does ninja at times people are mostly defending it because you can do it without repercussions. It has zero to do with theory or roleplay reasons, and all about getting stuff for free without being blown up. I can go get a cheap frig or dessy, scan for a few minutes, and make free money without anyone being able to do much of anything. That's the real issue. Thanks for that. It seems to me that the mere ability to do something in the game that feels like stealing with no consequences has clouded the judgment of a ton of people who replied here. If this were a problem that was fully resolved don't you think CCP would add it to the 'Commonly Suggested Ideas' thread, or actively close the topics themselves? A few people have mentioned (I think one person here estimated this number at hundreds of thousands of people) that I am far from the first person to make this assertion. So many ninja salvage threads, you say? Have you ever stopped for a minute to consider WHY there are so many of these threads? No. You'd rather lump them all in the 'childish whiner' category and brush up on your immature trash talk because discussing something contradictory to CCP's public statements is oh-so-taboo. The sad truth is that most of you are ganging up on every author of a ninja salvage thread in order to preserve a way for you to make free ISK with none of the effort or risk and all of the potential for butthurt. At any rate, I have requested that this thread be locked. It's obvious that a rational discussion about why a bunch of people (see: OMG SO MANY NINJA SALVAGE THREADS) consider this theft is not possible here.
Comodore John Gallente KILRATHI INDUSTRIES Sang Do Oligarchic Democracy	Posted - 2010.02.10 03:48:00 - [26] CCP Mitnal: Originally by: CCP Mitnal "Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing." Per GM Faolchu : Originally by: GM Faolchu Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Per Senior GM Ytterbium : Originally by: GM Ytterbium Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit. Per CCP Prism X : Originally by: CCP Prism X Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. (These quotes are kept handy for your convenience at Ironfleet.com.)
JordanParey Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2010.02.10 03:52:00 - [27] Gonna make this brief: With Dominion, CCP added the option of "abandoning" wrecks and cans in space. This makes them blue to everyone and allows them to take without getting aggro'd to you. If you don't want them to come back and pop you for shooting them (because they took "your stuff") then learn to play, harden the **** up, or just abandon your wrecks.
Samantha U	Posted - 2010.02.10 03:54:00 - [28] You're assuming now, probably because you're so butthurt that people don't agree with you, that everyone who doesn't see ninja salvaging as theft is a ninja salvager. This is incorrect. I have never salvaged from someone else's mission. I've had ninjas in mine and gotten over it, then I learned how to avoid them. This is an MMO and that means that when you undock you agree to various forms of player interaction that are sanctioned by CCP. This includes PVP in whatever guise it takes, and risking having your mission probed down and another player enter with the intent of hoovering up the wrecks, which CONCORD see as space debris, is just one form of PVP. Now the issue of confusion about ownerships of cans in wrecks and the wrecks themselves does need to be addressed, this is what is causing the constant stream of posts on the subject.
Joshua Swift	Posted - 2010.02.10 03:56:00 - [29] And no one sees the glaring discrepancies in the CCP quotes? If we consider this quote first, Quote: Originally by: CCP Prism XWhy is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing. Doesn't seem like more of a server code issue than anything else? Lots of the other GM statements seem to just be covering for the server's inability to classify salvage before it's created. Beyond that, this statement: Quote: Originally by: GM FaolchuSalvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage. Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up. Despite the fact that this GM has the word Salvaging in his name and thus may be biased, he has a point: "Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along.' Except that there is no 'die' for the ninja salvager, which is the problem. If the above description of this game were at all true, we'd be just as able to shoot them with no consequence as they are able to steal salvage with no consequence.
Joshua Swift	Posted - 2010.02.10 04:01:00 - [30] Samantha, it's very hard to reply to your posts when every one begins with an insult or some personal attack. You have some well written stuff that is always precluded by utter garbage. Save the insults and expand upon the reasonable arguments? Let me ask you this. If I don't own my wreck, why can I abandon it? Also, if I go into your mission and salvage a Capacitor Console from one of your wrecks, worth about 10mil, how is that space garbage?

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