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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 36 post(s) |
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CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
2564
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Sreegs has been busy investigating a recent event and now he's here to tell you all about the results. Check out the blog and give us your feedback right here. CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |-á@ccp_guard |
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CCP FoxFour
C C P C C P Alliance
74
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:49:00 -
[2] - Quote
I may not like what this graph represents, but I do like graphs. Content Designer | Team Five 0 @regnerBA |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1889
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:50:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP FoxFour wrote:I may not like what this graph represents, but I do like graphs.
We can agree without being agreeable "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1889
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:54:00 -
[4] - Quote
Blawrf McTaggart wrote:hey sreegs i hate to point this out but you seem to be missing an axis there well ok see ya
whoops "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1889
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:What sort of metrics does CCP watch for to catch these kinds of exploits? And what sort of systems can be put in place to understand why LP is coming from nothing, similar to how tech was coming from nothing under the previous silo duplication exploit?
Without getting into too much detail things as simple as watching top LP gains by player is a fairly simple one. If you look at the graph provided you really only had to look at the LP at all to see it spike. The other indicator is LP by faction. All the other factions are kinda even keep and Minmitar was like OH HI!
:edit: I just realized I only half answered your question but I want to leave it that way for the time being. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1889
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Posted - 2012.06.28 15:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
corestwo wrote:If he doesn't correct the graph, the major axis lines on it have to be at least 200m LP.
The graph was edited on purpose as we didn't see the value in divulging the number. The disparity is what's important. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1889
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Zagdul wrote:Shouldn't they also retain LP equivalent to 2 weeks worth of 'normal' game play?
They were playing, they did let you know and they did participate in Faction Warfare.
I really don't want to discuss actions against individual players any more than was detailed in the blog for informational purposes. Sorry duder. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1892
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
Swearte Widfarend wrote:Weaselior wrote:Is it an exploit to take advantage of a naturally occuring disparity between market price and average price? In essence, can I farm this system if I didn't tamper with the average price in any way? Aryth wrote:Other posts bring up a intersting point though. If in the future, after the system is fixed/revamped whatever. If this becomes slightly possible again but not to the degree shown here, would that be legal? I am not trying to words lawyer, just trying to see where the boundary is.
Once something is reported, and time gone by to remediate, does anything after that pass muster? Sreegs - if we do not manipulate prices but do research to take advantage of existing market values, is this still exploiting? Your blog seems to hint that it is.
I'm going to pass this point around internally. I'm not really comfortable answering this Maverick-Style. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP GingerDude
70
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:What sort of metrics does CCP watch for to catch these kinds of exploits? And what sort of systems can be put in place to understand why LP is coming from nothing, similar to how tech was coming from nothing under the previous silo duplication exploit?
This did also show up as a statistical anomaly in our player event metrics although it took a while for it to properly register. I.e. we noticed and would've taken action regardless of snitching. Senior Server Programmer |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1892
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:Manipulating market prices = Exploiting.
There literally is no sandbox anymore.
Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
Nowhere has anyone said Manipulating Market Prices is exploiting. Ever. At all. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1892
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
Atomic Option wrote:I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool.
PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1893
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
corestwo wrote:Querns wrote:So this has been a pretty wild ride, but I still have one more question -- when spitballing FW Forex, I thought of a crucial limitation to the whole shebang, and perhaps, in the spirit of amusement, one of you lovely CCP types could verify this for me. Is the column in the database tasked with storing a player's LP a signed 32-bit integer? I was legitimately worried that if we breached 2.1 billion LP, it would wrap around to a negative value. Also curious about this. We all assumed that it wasn't a signed 32-bit integer, because wallets aren't, but we definitely joked about it happening, and about what an entertaining petition it would make.
I'll ask internally but I'm not sure I'd tell you either way. To my knowledge we don't really give out that level of detail about our DB structure. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1899
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Posted - 2012.06.28 16:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
Nagapito wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?
As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1900
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Posted - 2012.06.28 17:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
Aryth wrote:Weaselior wrote:Nagapito wrote: So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting?
That's sort of what we're asking. It's clear it's an exploit to manipulate the price, then use it. What we're asking is if it's an exploit to use a differential we didn't create. This. The market creates these disparties on it's own sometimes without player help. At least active help. Is it ok to use it then? Is it ok to use it as a matter converter? Essentially this system can function like reprocessing for any item in EVE. It has dramatic implications for EVE going forward.
I think it certainly has an impact on EVE as you stated, but that impact is something new. To make a statement of USING THE MARKET TO GAIN MONEY IS OVER EVE IS DYING, is a bit silly. (Not you specifically but others in this thread) This isn't a legacy problem and has no impact on how you deal with existing systems. It only impacts your interaction with FW.
What we need to do is take a good long hard look at how to deal with items that have disparate values in what are essentially two currencies. I'm pretty sure that is the pivot point in this scenario and from that perspective I'm just Winston Wolf. I don't design these systems.
As it stands today our stance is that buying something and purposely blowing it up to generate value in another currency is exploiting. It was clearly not our intent in creating the system for that to occur. The system was meant to encourage PVP not wanton suicidal destruction to print money.
I guess it would somewhat logically be the same to use an example as going to the lamp shop in America, buying a lamp and smashing it, and having the Chinese manufacturer send more money than you paid for it to your account over and over and over again. It's a bit of a stretch in my opinion at least to think this would ever be acceptable.
There's certainly a design flaw here that needs to be worked out but we have never intentionally introduced a system in EVE where buying an item and killing yourself should be a legitimate way to manufacture income. Least of all on a massive scale. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1900
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Posted - 2012.06.28 17:11:00 -
[15] - Quote
Querns wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Nagapito wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting? As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased. Printing money, or printing LP? There's a pretty big difference. Printing LP doesn't specifically print money; in fact, it reduces the amount of money in the economy by a nontrivial amount.
What is the value of LP by itself? "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1901
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Posted - 2012.06.28 17:13:00 -
[16] - Quote
Bagehi wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Nagapito wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting? As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased. Along those same lines, what about people who didn't actively manipulate the value of items, but benefited from these manipulations?
As stated in the blog only the five people who actively did this repeatedly were touched. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1901
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Posted - 2012.06.28 17:17:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kismeteer wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased. I will point out that 'printing money from nowhere' is done by many mechanics, but they are being closed off. BPC lottery, datacores, living in a complex killing the last boss, etc. And of course, I say this while swimming scrouge mcduck style in a pool of technetium isk. I think that it should be clear that market manipulation is legit gameplay, it is war with isk instead of guns. The only sketchy part was the LP conversion using these modified prices, and even then, it would be something I think CCP should be able to catch. For real world example, if you have one person looting every single X-Type hardener... Shouldn't you be able to pick up on that?
Yeah I'm pretty sure I already stated that just mucking with markets isn't the core problem here. The manipulation is only relevant because the number is used BY US to determine an item's value in a separate currency. This isn't in and of itself an issue until you buy a bunch of them and kill yourself over and over again to pump up massive sums of the foreign currency which in this case is LP. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1901
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Posted - 2012.06.28 17:22:00 -
[18] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Nagapito wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting? As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased. Insurance fraud was anything but Hypothetical. Those exact circumstance happened and was abused on a very large scale. If it's an exploit, why no rollback?
I'm discussing this exploit not any one of a number of hypothetical past or future exploits. (or non-exploits) "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1902
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Posted - 2012.06.28 17:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: I'm discussing this exploit not any one of a number of hypothetical past or future exploits. (or non-exploits)
The issue is the thing you've said directly applies to insurance fraud. Insurance fraud was directly a case where you blew something up and got more than the value of that item back - in isk not an alternative currency like lp.
I don't disagree at all I'm just tired and really not prepared to compare one to the other. I'm still heads down in fixing this one. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1902
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Posted - 2012.06.28 17:41:00 -
[20] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Nagapito wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: Nobody ever said anything about manipulating the market prices. What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency.
That's not "Market Manipulation" that's blowing someone up over and over again to magically get more money out of the same item.
So... This means that insurance fraud is actually an exploit? If, somehow, mineral prices hit the ground tomorrow and we start building and blowing ships for the insurance ISK, we are exploiting? As I said I won't deal in hypotheticals. That could certainly be the case but it could also not be. Are you printing money from nowhere? Is that printing being done in a tremendous volume? If either or both of those is yes then I think it's pretty fair to say we'd be pretty displeased. Insurance fraud was anything but Hypothetical. Those exact circumstance happened and was abused on a very large scale. If it's an exploit, why no rollback? I'm discussing this exploit not any one of a number of hypothetical past or future exploits. (or non-exploits) Fair enough. Insurance fraud just happened to hit both of your Xes in your IF X THEN CCP=Mad statement. In fact, Insurance Fraud occurred the exact same way that the FW exploit started (with the freighters full of minerals). The market fell >> The CCP value of minerals stayed higher than the market >> People committed blew up their ships to make tons of money. In this case it was LP, with insurance fraud it was ISK, and instead of having to pay for insurance, all you had to do was join FW. The furtherance of the exploit was due to the small size of the EvE market and the presence of totally useless, rare items.
Yeah and what I'm trying to get at is that I didn't compare how we felt with handling this decision based on past decisions others might have made. We looked at the situation and did what we felt was the right thing for the game as a whole, so I'm not really prepared to discuss x vs. y because we didn't ever discuss it internally and these decisions aren't made solo. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1902
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Posted - 2012.06.28 17:44:00 -
[21] - Quote
Mme Pinkerton wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:What we said was that this could be done in such a way that lead to an artificial disparity (albeit one created by our own systems) between the real value of an item and the number we were calculating value based upon to magically die over and over again to gain another currency. Inquiring minds want to know how you determine the "real value" of an item.
It's in the blog. There's the current cost you pay for an item and there's the rolling average of the item's value. LP gain was tied to the long term average cost which is calculated by us. By causing disparity in the two values, whether on purpose or if it happens naturally, you can be in a position where you can print LP (corrected :)) by just buying things and shooting yourself.
The destruction of items to harvest LP is the main issue here. The manipulation of the average cost in and of itself is not at this point in time considered problematic. It's merely how much that can be used to amplify the damage caused by the destruction. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1917
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Posted - 2012.06.28 19:01:00 -
[22] - Quote
Haifisch Zahne wrote:I see only two reasons given by CCP Sreegs, speaking for CCP, why this "event" (Goon 4x4? GoonGate? Goon FW Crisis 2012?) has been classified as an exploit:
1) "Because of the volumes and disparity involved we've had to take action to fix this particular system."
2) "Because this was essentially a system where you could print LP, even if ISK was provided as an input, it is classified as an exploit."
But, 1) only speaks to the surprising SUCCESS of the Goons. It does not speak to it being an exploit. For example, that Bill Gates (and Microsoft) have made a giganormous fortune is not reason to say Microsoft Windows is an "exploit". (It is for other reasons.)
And, 2) contains an enormous IF clause: "even if ISK was provided as an input". The Goons did not buy an LP printing press, with ISK. This was not the "input" of ISK. They gamed the system, and it required purchases necessarily to function. Had they blown up stuff "from thin air", then, yes, they would have successfully printed LP.
CCP needs to explain WHY this classifies as an exploit, rather than an enormously successful method of multiplying an investment.
CCP has not done this.
We classified it as an exploit and gave the explanation. That you were not satisfied with that explanation is unfortunate but it's the only one we're giving. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1917
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Posted - 2012.06.28 19:03:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Zagdul wrote:Shouldn't they also retain LP equivalent to 2 weeks worth of 'normal' game play?
They were playing, they did let you know and they did participate in Faction Warfare. I really don't want to discuss actions against individual players any more than was detailed in the blog for informational purposes. Sorry duder. Sreegs i aplogize ahead for this one man. I know you cannot discuss what disciplinary actions are done to player XYZ nd so on but many will be disappointed if there are no Bannings. The group knew; they got their Egg heads together played with the formula and went hey you know you can do this and so a group went and did exactly how the egg heads said and exploited it and then said something about it. they did toss you under the bus not once but multiple times over this issue alone. A lot of folks feel they should be banned. if it was any other group they would have been banned in a blink of an eye and then work on the investigation. Many of us have talked about this and the general concensus is that your doing the father thing Shaking the finger at them and speaking in a stern voice "Do not do that again or else" Many have seen this and many want what the rules say to happen to them. Sorry Sreegs had to say my peice on this and hope you do the right thing. Peace
We feel we did the right thing and it's unfortunate that we perhaps disagree in the severity of the response but unfortunately that's going to happen every time we make any decision. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1921
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Posted - 2012.06.28 20:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
Kern Hotha wrote:Ex-Goon working in the security department at CCP gets assigned the task of adjudicating Goon exploiters.
Ex-Goon deems that no punishment is necessary. Light slap on the wrist given to exploiters. Chief exploiter rewarded with gift card.
"Comedy is allied to justice." - Aristophanes
Hi Capsuleer Kern Hotha, you may have missed the bit where we pointed out that these are group decisions. I'm pleased you feel it necessary to question my integrity but unfortunately for you in this case your conspiratorial scenario has no grounding in reality. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1922
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Posted - 2012.06.28 21:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
Xutech wrote:I wonder whether CCP Sreeg's earlier belligerent, confused and contrary posts in the original thread were also guided by a team of CCP economists and security experts.
Certainly his tone has changed today but he is still obviously struggling to digest the more difficult theoretical questions this wholly unsatisfactory blog has given.
It's been made clear that we must accept this judgement without access to any appropriate information and we cannot even get a solid definition of how we might avoid this in the future. Being told not to make too much isk or apply too complex a theory to your financial schemes is....pathetic.
Hi. I'm sorry if "Blowing your ship up over and over again with various items in the hold to manufacture a particular currency from thin air" isn't clear enough for you but I'm afraid it's a bit difficult to be more clear or direct. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1922
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Posted - 2012.06.28 21:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
Protheroe wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Atomic Option wrote:I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool. PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one. Will there be rewards for any of the other people who tried to bring to your attention that the system might be manipulated?
Not if they didn't report it to me directly as per the mention in the thread linked from the blog. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1931
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem.
By properly register he means that the output was bad not that we saw it and were like "Oh wow man those minmatar sure are aggressive folks". "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1933
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:12:00 -
[28] - Quote
Spaja Saist wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Atomic Option wrote:I'm not sure I agree with rolling back their gains--although I'd definitely zero out their LP--but I'm not bent out of shape over it. At least the one guy got a free plex. That's pretty cool. PLEX reward scales with the severity of the exploitable condition so it'll be more than one. This just doesn't make any sense to me. A group of people exploited a game mechanic to make ungodly amounts of LP and ISK and you are rewarding them for it? I guarantee if this was anyone else but Goons they would have been banned. CCP your favoritism is showing and not in a good way.
We're rewarding the person who brought us the problem. Just like any other time someone brings us problems of this nature as per the program linked in the dev blog. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1933
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:While I see the rationale in simply banning LP farming - it is too difficult to ram a solution through quickly and not really your problem - it offends my EVE sensibilities to have a system that I am forbidden from using for something other than its intended purpose. I would hope that once the team has had a chance to look at this again and actually fix it, the ban on farming will be removed.
We would hope so too.
:edit: to clarify, we'd like to see the system function as intended so we don't have to worry about it. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1933
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:19:00 -
[30] - Quote
Querns wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:Weaselior wrote:I do have to wonder if 1000x the normal faction warfare lp being generated in a day doesn't "properly register" just how bonkers you would have to go before the person monitoring that stuff actually immediately grasped there was A Problem. By properly register he means that the output was bad not that we saw it and were like "Oh wow man those minmatar sure are aggressive folks". wait really is the y-axis on the graph in the devblog logarithmic or something
That graph was generated as part of the investigation. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1933
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:44:00 -
[31] - Quote
Rhys Thoth wrote:This resolution seems pretty fair, though as a trader I am somewhat concerned about the vagueness surrounding the market manipulation. As best as I can tell there were three issues:
1) FW LP gains for kills 2) Market price manipulation 3) Using an 'x day' rolling average to calculate item value
1 needs some tweaking. 2 has been legit gameplay since I first logged in.
3 is where it goes full ******. The algorithm for determining average price needs to be resistant to this type of tampering.
The tampering only compounded the issue and is not the issue in and of itself. The tampering itself when coupled with the ability to kill and alt over and over again to farm LP is the issue. Without the tampering the farming is significantly less problematic but it's only a part of the puzzle. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1934
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Posted - 2012.06.28 23:46:00 -
[32] - Quote
Munch Munch wrote:So, to sum up the facts again quick: - They deliberately broke the rules by looking for holes in the mechanics and exploiting whatever they find (they admitted it) - Their exploits had huge impacts on the market and FW, which caused damage to thousands of other players - They did not go public with it because of good will, but only to protect themselves, brag about how "awesome" they are, and to make CCP look like fools
And what does CCP do? Instead of punishing them, YOU ARE DUMB ENOUGH TO REWARD THEM WITH IMMUNITY AND A FREE PLEX???
As if they cared about the rollback of the goods they made with those exploits. They had the time of their life, and you probably won't be able to delete all their gains anyway because they are spread all over the universe and to differents accounts and alts by now. If you permabanned them... perhaps this would have set a sign and they or others would not be trying to exploit in the future anymore. But by REWARDING them for such impudence, you will not prevent anyone from attempting to exploit... In fact all CCP did (or failed to do) in this case only encourages other players to exploit, and the persons that did it in this case will probably do it again themselves, but the next time they will not go public with it. And you probably will not notice it anyway, seeing how you failed to notice the extreme impacts on the market and FW, despite the fact that you should have been monitoring those things closely after implementing such extreme changes (yay for FW store prices varying between 25% and 400%).
Good to know that "the exploiter" seems to be a new EVE profession that is officially supported now. If CCP is this dumb, I will make sure to be looking for exploits too from now on.
If we weren't able to fix the problem we wouldn't have said we could. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1935
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Posted - 2012.06.29 00:43:00 -
[33] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: I'm pretty sure that's not how this works and is specifically spoken against in the blog. While a great deal of LP was generated here the vast majority wasn't cashed out making it just a number in people's wallets. The proceeds were seized. No advantage is had. The market could have been crashed but the issue was reported instead. I know that will never be enough for some and that we're not going to please everyone but at the very least if you're going to post in this thread please at least make a modicum of effort to read the blog in question.
sreegs it's 12:40 am over there go to sleep
going now :( "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1967
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Posted - 2012.06.30 04:24:00 -
[34] - Quote
Vladimir Vladimirovitch Putain wrote:Seems to me CCP is just trying to brush this one under the carpet instead of accepting the fact they messed up big time and they're the only ones at fault. This is no different from the older insurance payouts which so many people abused of until it got changed. But classifying it as an exploit only shows a complete detachment either from reality or the English language. By their own admission: CCP Sreegs wrote:This can be compared to foreign exchange manipulation. Now we have all heard of this before, sure. And it's called this for a reason. Ever heard anyone calling it foreign exhange exploit? Let the sandbox play itself out, small government yea!
Yes we're trying to brush it under the carpet so much we made a dev blog about it. I really can't even address how much this is just UGH and this is the basis of every tinfoil situation I'm meant to deal with professionally. I have no words. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1969
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Posted - 2012.06.30 10:50:00 -
[35] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Well Lord Zim was right, goons don't get banned for this kind of thing.
The post on the Dev blog "I wrote a blog on "Responsible Disclosures" a year or so ago. In that blog I mention that telling us about something after you've used the heck out of it isn't what we consider to be responsible. We do our best to be lenient in cases such as this but we want this to serve as a notice to the community that the proper time to alert us to the issue was before actually using the system."
It shows as such a good warning "Do what ever you want and we will just roll everything back to pretend it didn't happen." Yeah Good deterant that one.
I at least hope the other members of the 5 are going to shank the snitch.
hi when I ban someone I can't tell you about it and you know that I hope this helps
I'm pretty sure nobody in the history of CCP has banned more people than I have including basically any alliance in the game "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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CCP Sreegs
C C P C C P Alliance
1969
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Posted - 2012.06.30 13:33:00 -
[36] - Quote
Spc One wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote: To clarify, we'd like to see the system function as intended so we don't have to worry about it. Then don't release stupid expansions that weren't tested properly, like very bad UI and FW exploits. Do more testing and ask players to test stuff out first and tell their opinion about it, not just release expansion that is crap.
This valuable feedback will be noted. "Sreegs has juuust edged out Soundwave as my favourite dev." - Meita Way 2012 |
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